700c Roadbike, fast+short commute, which kit/battery?

A

Achim

10 mW
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
25
Hey Guys,
First of all I need to say that I'm a total noob on this forum, so please forgive my ignorance!

Ok, I was thinking about electrifying my recently ordered Bianchi via Nirone 7 roadbike with 700c wheels. I would predominantly use it for short rides in the city (mostly under 5km), so my preference would be acceleration and speed rather than range (though it would be great to ride to my parent's village from time to time (20km)). I want to spend as little money as possible, so I searched for some cheap 700c kits, and found the ebay sellers and goldenmotor to be the cheapest. But all the negative comments on GM that I found in the forums made me a bit sceptical... nevertheless I thought a 750W 48V kit might be appropriate for me.

Now here are my questions: Will my topspeed increase if I choose a 48V motor over a 36v motor with the same wattage? Seems unlogical to me...
What battery should I choose? I intend to mount it between the frame, so a flat one would be great! First I thought about ping's, a 48V 10Ah pack to be concrete, but the pack only seems to be suitable for motors up to 550W (so says ping). Since I don't really need the extra range and extra weight of a larger pack I asked myself if I should take some bmi/lifebatt or whatever they're called because they have higher C ratings and 48V 10Ah should work with 750W, maybe even 1000W? (Is 1000W too much for an alu frame/carbon forks?), but the high price and Don ;) made me think twice about it.
And last but not least the controller. Most cheap controllers handle 20A, right? Would a 20A controller make bmi/lifebatt obsolete because they could deliver much more?


Thanks in advance for your ideas!
 
Welcome to the forum. :D

The best accelerattion comes from geared hub motors, but those come in two flavors, cheap, and good. If you're on a budget, then forget them for now.

You have a carbon fork, then forget a front mounted motor. they were never built for the stresses of being the drive wheel. Anything short of steel will let you get a close up view of the street. Chromoly is even better.

Most the rear motors run 135mm dropouts and you need to run a bigger tire to handle the weight, speed, and power. I found a 38c was the smallest I felt comfortable on. I know my cannondale can't handle that size tire or dropout width. you might want to check yours first.

But enough of the negative, I think you can do what you want with something like a 9 continents rear motor and a couple sets of tool batteries. 3 dewalt 36v batteries, broken out and rebuilt into a 48 volt pack would get you 5km with something left over. that should add maybe only 20 pounds to the bike.

The thing with Ping batteries is they are built for people who want to cruise far, not those wanting light and fast. for fast and light, you have to go with higher end batteries. the dewalt tool packs are A123 cells. there's also Lipo, although if you're not familure with Lipo, they aren't a good place to start.
 
i'd advise you to keep your original road bike unmolested and build something to be a dedicated e-bike. you can chart the progression of my thoughts in these three threads, sorted chronologically:

Road Bike Commuter Bike Build - April 8, 2008 through April 19, 2008
bike-elektro-antrieb.ch - April 13, 2008 through April 20, 2008
Seattle commuter bike v2 - April 22, 2008 through today's date. it's my current ride, my "car", and i'm very glad i didn't convert my old klein.

IMG_5194.jpg
 
with 48v, I've heard that the Goldenmotors will get up to 30 mph. I've seen lots of people using the goldenmotors and are happy with them. Keep in mind that if you buy a goldenmotor kit and you go up a hill that last maybe a mile, you could burn out a wire or circuit. These are just things I've heard so I don't know if they are just freak accidents or what.

If you want cheap, then yeah goldenmotor might be the best. The Aotema kits from hightekbikes.com will get you to 25 mph with 48v.

The 5303 hub motor from crystalyte will get you to 35 mph with 48v. The crystalyte hubs are probably the best built e-bike motors available. The 5000 series motors from crystalyte give you good torque and speed. I bought a 5303 hub myself from ebikes.ca. If you want speed then 5303 would be great but it's expensive. If you want torque, then 5304 and 5305 might be your best bet. Also, there is the 400 series which are smaller and the 408 has best torque and 406 has best speed.
 
I couldn't agree with Toshi more. Do NOT ruin a fine road bike with a motor. Go to the garage sales, and find a solid, old school, steel frame bike. There is a reason so many of us are on MTB's. Or go to the box store and get a 700c bike with at least steel front forks. Then you have more options. One of the faster motors that is cheap is the 9 continents. Amped bikes has it in front or rear, and ebikes ca in front. Strangely, the fast motors accelerate slow. The slow motors are made to put out torque, and the fast ones have less pull at slower speed.

One good motor that is in the middle between fast and slow motors, is the High Tech bikes aotema, with a 27 mph top speed at 48v. And with very similar perfomance, the 407, or 408 crystalyte from ebikes-ca. Either one will go pretty good for you in shorter distances with a set of 48v nicads from ebikes-ca. For longer distances, lifepo4 in larger size works great. At 48 v both of those motors will be pretty snappy off the line compared to just pedaling. Bear in mind, to leave rubber on the pavement, much higher voltages are what you need.
 
Thanks for the comments! Already helped a lot, you pursuaded me not to destroy my new road bike :) . I still have an old steel framed Peugeot road bike in the garage, might as well use this one (needs renovation though).
Thanks drunkskunk for the idea with the dewalt packs, they appear to have the C rates I am looking for. I am now considering buying 4 of the 36v packs and just remove the plastic cover and parallel them, should be pretty easy, because the 36v packs have a bms and are well soldered together, right? Does anyone know how many amps the bms of these allow?

Yesterday I found a new kit on ebay that looks great (36V 900W). A similar non hub motor solution that Juerg from bike-elektro-antrieb.ch is selling. I like the idea of the motor being attached to the chain, the effect is like having a geared motor. The 62kph that the seller edealsbargains commends might be realistic if I think about it, or don't they?
This way I wouldn't have a problem with forks not being wide enough and dropouts being ripped out, plus I could use the rims that I already have and would have a great acceleration.

What do you think about this solution?
 
I too am looking to buy my first kit. After a year of lurking, here is my first post! :shock: My commute is a little different from Achim:
11 miles with 3 to 4 serious hills. Only 4% each according to MapMyRide but they turn a 20 minute drive into a 1hr sweaty bike ride. I just want to take the edge off the hills and maintain 15-20mph and I´ll be happy. I have a Haro DelSol hybrid (similar to Trek) with 700c (x38) tires and alum frame with front shock (steel insert). I prefer a front kit for easy swapout. I know cheap & tough MTBs are recommended by the wise elders, but this bike wasn´t that expensive and I don´t care if the fork bends in my trials--yes I´ll get torque arms and wear a helmet (as always :wink: ).
I´ve found the forum to be amazingly informative but also daunting in choosing a first kit, but I can´t wring my hands any more. I´m leaning toward the Hightekbikes kit thanks to Dogman´s reviews, perhaps with just 36v SLA or maybe I´ll go for a Ping 36v LiFePo4 10A if I get daring as a first timer. I like the Amped and E-Bike kits too but HighTek seems simple and easy to upgrade to 48v for a novice like me.
But what do you think of no E-brakes with the kit? Am I flirting with disaster or is it easy to master releasing the throttle when breaking (BTW I have twist shifters on both sides).
If all goes well I plan to try out Bersonev´s new thin motor on one of my old and tough Raleigh 3-speeds. But I don´t want to get ahead of myself.
 
Rumor has it ping is coming out with V3 batteries that can handle 3C..
Click to expand...

not a rumor any more, talked with ping recently and he said the version 3 packs are available with a 7 day lead time even less than the 10 days for a version 2.5 and they do handle 3c.
 
Sweet, what are the prices for 3c cells like?

I find it just as easy to not use the throttle and brakes simultaneously on an ebike as it was on a motorcycle. I don't get the ebrake thing at all unless they are regen brakes. Make sure you have enough space in the forks for a frontie if you go that route.
 
carlerik said:
I too am looking to buy my first kit. After a year of lurking, here is my first post! :shock: My commute is a little different from Achim:
11 miles with 3 to 4 serious hills. Only 4% each according to MapMyRide but they turn a 20 minute drive into a 1hr sweaty bike ride. I just want to take the edge off the hills and maintain 15-20mph and I´ll be happy. I have a Haro DelSol hybrid (similar to Trek) with 700c (x38) tires and alum frame with front shock (steel insert). I prefer a front kit for easy swapout. I know cheap & tough MTBs are recommended by the wise elders, but this bike wasn´t that expensive and I don´t care if the fork bends in my trials--yes I´ll get torque arms and wear a helmet (as always :wink: ).
I´ve found the forum to be amazingly informative but also daunting in choosing a first kit, but I can´t wring my hands any more. I´m leaning toward the Hightekbikes kit thanks to Dogman´s reviews, perhaps with just 36v SLA or maybe I´ll go for a Ping 36v LiFePo4 10A if I get daring as a first timer. I like the Amped and E-Bike kits too but HighTek seems simple and easy to upgrade to 48v for a novice like me.
But what do you think of no E-brakes with the kit? Am I flirting with disaster or is it easy to master releasing the throttle when breaking (BTW I have twist shifters on both sides).
If all goes well I plan to try out Bersonev´s new thin motor on one of my old and tough Raleigh 3-speeds. But I don´t want to get ahead of myself.
Click to expand...

The setup I have should be adequate for your described commute. I commute from Everett to Waltham (12 miles in 40 minutes). No serious hills but about a 100 foot elevation gain with a 50 foot drop. My 408 at 48 volts will easily do 15-20 mph on 5-6% grades with pedaling.

If you go Ping I advise you to get the 20ah pack. Even a small motor can draw well over 20 amps under serious load. My 408 at 48 volts has pulled 38 amp peaks. A cheap lifepo4 in a small size can't handle that and get the advertised 1,000+ recharge cycles; although no one really knows what the life cycle expectancy of the duct tape lifepo4 packs is yet.

I note you're in Haverhill. If you'd like a test ride on my rig I will be going through Haverhill to Newton, NH this Saturday. PM me if interested.

Regards,
Bill
 
Advantages of the larger 700c frame is that more batteries can fit in the triangle and the higher gearing for speed.
 
Wow Wow- thanks for all the fast responses. Russell- thanks for the brakes tip. HTB website mentions a controller brake input but I don't see anything about the brakes being included. That does clinch the sale for me. Good point from Dogman about motorcycles not having a cutoff, but in bicycles the brakes apply force to the rims unlike in a car or motorbike, so I can see a greater potential to bend the fork in half, as well as pop the dropouts.

Trying to order from HTB now but his website isn't working for my kit selection :evil: Guess I'll go the old fashioned route.

snowranger said:
Advantages of the larger 700c frame is that more batteries can fit in the triangle and the higher gearing for speed.
Click to expand...
I'm 6'2 so I need a large frame and like the biggest wheels possible. I had a Huffy MTB once and hated the fat slower tires, although I see the advantage of the strength/cushion when going electric. I'm not planning to go to fast or rough, just smooth out the hills.

So I tested my commute again today (Earth Day was too rainy). Oh God, a grueling 10.5 miles in 59 min exactly. Easy to compute my average speed (a little slower than a fast female marathon runner- how's that for perspective)! I woulda thought my bike would beat any runner, but it was the 3-4 HILLS. Averaged 4-5 mph up those, and 20-30 mph winds today didn't help. I'm at work and beat, but inspired that a 30-40 min commute is reachable, without the stress, with the help of electrons. Dogman is right to always remind us of the wind!
Carl
 
carlerik said:
Trying to order from HTB now but his website isn't working for my kit selection :evil: Guess I'll go the old fashioned route.
Click to expand...


Email HTB before you place your order to get the E-S member shipping discount.

-R
 
Ok I just took the plunge and ordered a HiTekBike kit from Terry. I can confirm here what others have said about quick responses from him- there was a glitch with his website ordering module and he responded within a few hours and fixed it right away. Sounds like a gentleman.

Still working on my battery setup.

Going home tonight I shaved my 59 min/ 11 mile commute down to 45 min. Hills were still there, but a general downward grade on return, less wind, and pumped up tires to 80 psi made a heck of a time difference. Needed a shower though--not at option at work! With the kit I hope to even wear a tie on occasion.
 
The Stig said:
Rumor has it ping is coming out with V3 batteries that can handle 3C...
Or i just saw this post with a nice looking battery. American assembled :) Cells can handle 10C and 13C bursts http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9000&start=30#p150193
Click to expand...
mud2005 said:
Rumor has it ping is coming out with V3 batteries that can handle 3C..
Click to expand...

not a rumor any more, talked with ping recently and he said the version 3 packs are available with a 7 day lead time even less than the 10 days for a version 2.5 and they do handle 3c.
Click to expand...

I corresponded with Ping the other day about a 36V20ah pack V3. Going for $598 USD plus shipping. See ¨New Ping Packs¨ thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9093#p153065

Carl
 
Cool so much for the rumor of the 3c cells costing twice as much.

Think about this a sec, a 10 ah pack can now pull 30 amps in therory. I'll always want a bigger one, simply because even a 20 ah is a bit short on range for me, but with 3c cells worrying about a 30 amp spike from time to time is history. I think a short amp spike on a start does not seriously harm the battery, but a long grind up a big hill will. But with a 3c cell, a 10 ah pack will handle even that in theory.

With a 3c cell, pingbattery now has a 48v 20 ah pack that I would not hesitate to run with a clyte 530x motor. Even if the shunt in the bms needed a tweak, the cells should be able to pull 60 amps for short durations with no problems.
 
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