A friend just dropped this off.

Phdintheory

Phdintheory

10 mW
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
29
Location
USA
IMG_20140329_140429.jpgIMG_20140329_140505.jpgIMG_20140329_140339.jpgIMG_20140329_140401.jpgIMG_20140329_140421.jpgWell, a couple of hours ago, a friend of mine came by and surprised me by dropping off the coolest bike.
I got to thinking about it and I don't think I've ever even seen one of these before.
I brought it into the house to get a better look at it, take a few pictures, and do a little Google research.
Here's what I've got so far.
I believe it's a "Liberty" model 629.
If correct, this model has:
36v/10ah Advanced Lithium Ion HP Battery,
Efficient 350 watt brushless motor,
36V/15A Brushless controller,
Etc.

At this time the bike does not appear to have enough of a charge to operate, but all appearances indicate that this is only a power issue. Observationally the bike appears to be in working condition. (I do have question about the two wires coming from the ignition switch. Visible in the photograph, my thinking is that they probably went to a set of lights?)

The main issue I'm running into already is that I wasn't given any charging equipment for the bike. I wouldn't be too concerned with that normally as I'm pretty familiar with Ohm's law, however in this case, I am having issues trying to figure out how to remove the battery so I can examine it thoroughly as I build a charging unit.

I have downloaded a manual that tells me how to remove it, but it seems to be stuck or something.

All that said, I think my questions would be:
Is there anything about these bikes that I should be aware of right out of the gate? (Any "don't ever do's," or "Be sure that you..." kind of things?
What might those two wires go to and would they have anything to do with standard operation of the bike?
What might I be doing incorrectly when I've tried to take out that battery? it simply won't lift up and away from the bike. (Yes, I raised the seat.) :)

And lastly, does anyone out here happen to know the charging circuit design at the port on the bike? I've determined the polarity of the contact points, (One ground and two hot) but I'm unaware of which hot is going to be the charging circuit, or the regular power.)
Also, the voltages?

I know I'm asking quite a lot, but I assure you that any help will be greatly appreciated. I just want to see if I can get this neat little toy running. :)

Thank you in advance for all who help.
UPDATE!!! The pics are new. They aren't the ones the comments were about. lol :)IMG_20140329_140252.jpgView attachment 4
 
There's a latch behind the battery at the top. Push the key in while you turn it. You should be able to see the pin going in and out of the rail as you turn the key.

You can buy a charger from Ebay. You want a 3 amp 36v lithium battery charger. If you make your own charger, make sure that it cuts off at 42v if you don't want to burn down your garage.

Did you look at the photos before posting them? How can we possibly help you from them?
 
Ahhhh hahahaha!
You're both right. Those pics do stink don't they!
I'm sorry about that. It was late and I just wanted to get something posted before I went to bed last night. Apparently I was already asleep when I took them. I'll post a few good ones in a little bit once the weather clears up a little here where I'm at.
Thank you for the help in removing the battery, but I can't seem to locate the latch you spoke of. (It's possible that it's missing as there is a hole in the side of the battery package that doesn't look as if it destroyed the battery, but may be responsible for that latch.
I believe I can see where it is held in place by a small little "button" looking piece of metal, but it looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to get it to move. Question though. Is that whole rectangular unit going to come up and out? Or is that a "sheath" for the battery and "the battery" will come up and out of it?
Thanks for the reminder not to go too high on the voltage. I'm going to assume then that you must be specifically aware that it can take rapid charging? (higher voltage than rated)
That said, would you happen to also know which is the charging circuit? (If the bike was in front of me, and I were facing the plug, Then the polarities would be, top - Positive (currently reading OL when grounded)
The middle one - positive (Reading 14.1v when grounded,) and the bottom - ground.
I'm not sure why I'm getting an over limit from the one post right now as it didn't do that earlier.

UPDATE! Okay! I was able to remove the battery. Thank you! (Push the key in while turning:)

Anyway, I'm going to get a chance to look at this thing in a little bit and I'll be back here to post those new pictures and check in.
Thanks again for the help.
policetac
 
Okay. Now that I've got the battery out, I can clearly see two well marked contact points that are marked for polarity. (This circuit is currently reading 55.7v)
These would be the main power couplings I assume. I'm wondering, can the charge be applied through the main circuit with this unit?
Anyway. I'll be back.
Thanks again.
 
It's very dangerous charging one of those batteries without the correct charge unless your properly familiar with the type of cells and how they work. You shouldn't charge through the power terminals. The cells need to be balanced and protected, which can only be done through the charging port. Are you sure your voltmeter is reading correctly. 55.7v seems too high for a 48v LMC battery. It would make more sense if it were a recently charged LoFePO4 one, but not if it hasn't been charged for a while.

Remove the panel from the side of the compartment under the battery, drag out the controller, and see what voltage is written on it.
 
Okay.
On the bottom of he battery unit, there is a sticker hat reads: Hi-energy battery
XH259-10J
DC 26.9v
Phylionbattery

Re-checking the unit gives me:
30.1 v and dropping - Off of the primary contacts

From the charging plug:

Ground - Ground
Middle contact (grounded) - 35.1v (Small fluxuations)
Top contact (grounded) - Extreme fluxuations in the low 100's voltage.

The transformers I have available for use as makeshift chargers read as follows:

24V @ 1A
18V @ 2.23A
30V @ 830mA
32V @720mA
or
18V @610mA

I'm leaning toward the 24@1 or the 18@2.23

The fluxuations at the top contact on the charging plug has me a little concerned though. Any reasons this might be reading this way?

Thank you again
 
you need to take picture of the label on the battery so we can read it. then we can tell you waht charger to use. i suspect it needs a 42V lithium ion charger for 10S of limn2o4.
 
Here's a picture of the label, although you can't read it. This is how it reads:
IMG_20140329_143104.jpgHi-energy battery
XH259-10J
DC 26.9v
Phylionbattery
 
Well, I was given a little bit of info that I added to the other pieces I've learned and discovered that it has two (2) batteries inside the housing. This made sense to me as my local NAPA dealer and myself kind of wondered if that wasn't the case. It also would make sense of the readings I got from the two points om the charging plug. (The fluxuations stopped and I was reading 24.6 on the top, 13.7 in the middle with the bottom ground.
So I decided to go ahead and use the 18V@2.3A charger I made and apply it to each contact point for an hour or so and see what happened.
I now have an increase in voltage at those two points, but not enough to power the bike yet. (I'm at 26.3V on the top, and 23.4 on the other positive.

So my question at this point would be, "What readings would I need to know that the batteries were charged enough to run the bike? And would I use the contact points I've been working with, or for this reading would I use the primary motor contacts and check for output voltage? If so, what values?
Thank you again!
 
You have to work at a cell level, not at pack level. It's very dangerous charging a pack without knowing the cell voltages. Normally, you charge through the charge port. The charge goes through the BMS that monitors the cells and controls the charging. That's what those 8-conductor ribbon cables are for. I tell you again: Do not blindly charge the pack.
 
I've just read your last post again and I think you're misunderstanding what you have. What you think is two batteries is seven cells in two groups of three and four. You must not charge them in multiples except through the outer two pins of that three-pin socket with a 29.4v charger. The charge rate should be no more than 2 amps. You could use a slightly lower voltage to charge. The bike should work when the battery is above 21v, but if any single cell is below 3v, the BMS will shut off the power from the battery.
 
Okay...
You said, "The bike should work when the battery is above 21v,"
Responding to what I had said earlier, "I'm at 26.3V on the top, and 23.4 on the other positive."

According to my understanding, with the readings I presented, minus ..."but if any single cell is below 3v, the BMS will shut off the power from the battery." the bike should be able to at least show evidence that it is being powered. Even if that power level isn't enough to run the bicycle at optimum levels correct?

It didn't. (Show evidence that it had any power.)

So!

Let's go ahead and assume that we "know" there is sufficient power in the battery pack to operate the bike at this time.
But I still get no observable indication showing this to be so.

So, do you have any ideas on where I might start next?

The bike does have a bad shifting cable that needs to be replaced, so that will be next anyway. But after that I'm pretty much flying blind. So far I haven't been able to locate a service manual for the bike; only the user manual and it doesn't mention any fuses or cutoff switches or potentially vulnerable circuitry that might be a cause. (Although it did mention that if the brakes are applied, the unit cuts off. I'm wondering... if the brakes are set incorrectly could that be a cause for the machine to act as if it had no power?

I don't know. I guess I'm just going to have to start checking for continuity throughout the bike, starting at the controller....:(

Too late for all that tonight. Perhaps tomorrow.
And once again... Your help in resolving my problem is very much appreciated. Thank you.
 
PHDintheory, Do you understand what a BMS is? If not, you need to find out. From what you've said, it appears that you haven't understood how the battery is managed. It's not like a car battery. It's intelligent and has a pcb inside that controls it. Once you figure out how it works instead of blindly charging on, you'll quickly get to the root of your problem. You need to stop, read and understand before going any further. Sorry to be so blunt, but you're in danger of killing that battery - and maybe yourself at the same time. Type in to Google "what is a battery management system"
 
I've worked on a couple of similar (non-working) bikes I picked up off of CL for cheap. In both cases there was a simple wiring issue that the previous owners couldn't figure out.

Anyway, if you've tested the battery and determined that it has a good charge, then I would start testing at the controller. 1) Check to make sure it is getting power from the battery.
2) Check to make sure that any external (like a handlebar) on/off switch (if so equipped) is closing the circuit properly.
3) Disconnect the ebrake plugs to verify that they are not preventing the controller from providing drive power. Obviously reconnect prior to using the bike.
4) Check for proper throttle or PAS function

These bikes are actually pretty simple to understand once you wrap your brain around them. I know I was completely confused by the bundle of wires the first time I opened one up. But with a little perseverance and a lot of searching this site I was able to start making a little sense of things (thanks ES!).

Just take your time, label everything as you go, isolate each component and disable anything not critical and work your way to the source of the problem.

In one case, the whole issue was an intermittent short on one ebrake wire. The other bike had an ebrake short, a bad power switch and a bad throttle. Both were easily and cheaply fixed.

Good luck!
 
Before you put too much effort into this bike you may want to check with the local authorities to make sure it isn't stolen. Painting everything silver and no charger are red flags.
 
Now were starting to get somewhere. Thank you.
Please take no offense, but the last few replies are a bit closer to the help that I've been looking for.
I just really didn't think it was such a good idea for me to be taking something all apart like that battery pack if I didn't absolutely have to. That's why all of the repeated readings.

To the last reply.... Definitely the best advice of all. (But also the first thing I did) :) Strangely (and gratefully) enough though, no complaints.

Anyway. Martog,
Thank you. I will go ahead later on today and take a look at that controller a bit. I don't have any real experience with these bikes, but from the things in the world I do know, something is just nagging at me that the problem is closer along these lines rather than the battery.

I'll perform the steps you suggested later and get back by tonight hopefully with some good news.

Until then....:)
 
I've now reached a point where I'm going to close this and start another post.
Come to find out, the problem was the fusible link in the cap of the battery pack.
Those two wires poking out of the ignition switch was the previous owners attempt to bypass this failed link.
I've since removed and replaced the fuse link, installed a simple toggle, (the key switch was not working either)
and finished the circuit.
I placed the battery pack on the bike, flipped the toggle and got lights! (Red, green, and yellow by the throttle)
I didn't notice any power to the wheels at this time, but I'm pretty sure this was only because the battery pack wasn't fully charged. I'm slow charging it now. I have it on a 24V @ 1Ah homemade charger. I'll now in a number of hours whether or not it worked.
Wish me luck!
 
Okay,

I've got your run of the mill generic Chinese E-bike.
Being a generic, it's been rather difficult trying to figure out exactly what it is I have, and what to do to get it running.
Part of the reason for this is the lack of identifying information on the bike or any of it's parts.
Here's what I've got so far.
Initially, I wasn't getting any power to the bike.
Questioning the battery pack, I read the outside sticker.
It reads:
Hi-energy battery
XH259-10J
DC 26.9v
Phylionbattery
Inside the top cap, my immediate problem was a bypassed fusible link and a faulty ignition switch.
Bypassing these, I noticed:
1 set of 10g "red" and "Black" wires coming up from the bottom. (These led to the primary contacts on the bottom) (There was also a set of 18g wires for an LED, Not connected now)

1 10g "Red" wire - (+@26.1v) Led to the battery directly
1 10g "Black" wire - (Ground)
1 12g "Orange" wire - (Ground) All of these connected to the battery directly, with a connector
1 12g "Red" wire - (+@26.1v) female out.

So I took the 10g red from the battery, wired a fuse inline, then a toggle switch, then to the 10g "red" coming from the bottom. I took the 10g "Black" from the battery, and connected it to the 10g "Black" coming from the bottom. I isolated and insulated the remaining wires, and replaced the cap.
I tested for VDC at the primary contact points with the toggle "off," - No power
I tested for VDC at the primary contact points with the toggle "on," - 23.6 vDC

I manufactured a home made charger as the bike did not come with one. This charger output: +18v @ 1A
I connected it directly to the bottom contact points, switched the toggle to "on," and plugged in the transformer. 6 hours later, the reading from the contact points on the bottom was: 26.1 vDC
I allowed it to charge for another hour.

During all of this, I checked the remainder of the bike. All wire leads and parts passed a visual exam. The rest of the bike operates correctly.
Removing the cover to the controller, I disconnected the leads and removed the unit. A sticker on the side reads:
Brushless Intellect1:1 Motor Controller
Model: WZKC2415 - High Electric Potential
Date: 2011.03.04
S/N: BE241501790

A quick exam "looked" okay, so I placed a little dialectic grease on all of the contacts, reconnected everything, and replaced the cover.

Now, the battery has been charging at 18v / 1A for about six hours. It showed a solid 26.1 volts D.C. (What the battery says it's rated for, but there was no way to check Amperage.) I placed it into it's position on the bike, started riding to about five Mph, and I flipped the toggle switch.

I "think" I got a little something... The LED lights came on, and there was a very slight tick every so often as if the motor were ??? I experienced no noticeable acceleration, or assistance to the pedals, but I'm almost positive this is due to a lack of amperage in the charge.

SO! Without a "known" power supply, I don't know if the problem is with the bike. Without a "known" bike, I don't have any way of knowing if it's the battery.

There's just a few things that don't seem to make sense.

Everything I've read says batteries are 12, 24, 36, or 48 volts Not 26.1 like mine indicates.
The serial number of the controller might possibly indicate 24v? (BE241501790)

26.1 volt battery, 24 volt controller, 1 Amp charger, and a newbie to the whole thing caught in testing stage.

Any ideas??? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

One more thing though. At the risk of getting into trouble here,
"FOR TESTING ONLY"
Now the controllers on these things are basically power inverters right? Kind of like the ones used to power your T.V. or power tools from your vehicle correct? And the motors are basically just "motors" right?
So.... theoretically, couldn't virtually any combination of a power inverter and a battery supply power to the motor? Some working better than others?
For testing this particular system, couldn't I run two 12v car batteries in series (24v) to the bike's power contacts and see if the wheel turns?
Anyway..
Thanks again. :)
 
How did you get the voltage to rise with a 18v charger?

Controller is not an inverter. the motor should have 3 large wires and 5 small wires coming out of it.

Yes you could use any 24v source to test the controller/motor as long it's above 24v, being not dead.

10guage wire from a 24v battery seems rather strange. most prebuilts are more like 14 to 16 guage wire.

have you taken the battery apart and check cell voltage/ If one is dead it can cause the problem. If it has a BMS the 1 low cell will shut it down. So total voltage could still read with a dead cell. How many cells are in the battery?

Start with looking inside the battery for cell count, cell voltage and other connections like a BMS.

Dan
 
View attachment 2First of all, thank you for your response. I've got a good feeling about this. Hopefully, I'll follow your instructions correctly and we'll get this thing going yet!
I'll take your responses one by one.
..."How did you get the voltage to rise with a 18v charger?"
I don't know.. Wasn't it supposed to? Honestly. IDK
IMG_20140407_223637.jpg
Okay. as you can probably tell, I took the battery pack apart.
IMG_20140407_224308.jpg
Here's what I got as far as readings went.

Looking at the battery pack shows what looks to be like two (2) different batteries. There is some very stiff fiberglass, (plastic) sheets glued to the sides. Carefully pulling them free as best I could allowed me to access the terminals on top of each battery.
On the bottom battery:
With my meter ground to the primary ground wire, and my meter positive to the positive terminal on the bottom battery, I get a reading of 23.74v (not fully charged.)

But then we get something weird.
With my meter ground to the primary ground wire, and my meter positive to the terminals on top, I get a variety of different readings. One at 9.81v. - Two others at 6.80v and One at 3.39v

I'm going to keep it pulled apart so I can access it if needed.

..."Controller is not an inverter. the motor should have 3 large wires and 5 small wires coming out of it."

I'll look at this part later.

..."10guage wire from a 24v battery seems rather strange"
I was probably mistaken.

..."Start with looking inside the battery for cell count, cell voltage and other connections like a BMS."
Waaaat? :)
 
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