A Frugal First Build- eBikeKit

[nhendrix]

Here is my "how I got started" story. For me an electric bike was about saving money. Our daughter had turned 16 the prior year and, generous dad that I am, she was given my car to use for school. Since I am only about a mile from work I had a bike from a garage sale that I was using. But I noticed some days it just wasn't so easy making the three daily trips into work, even being so close. I don't remember how I got to Endless Sphere but in June I officially signed on and got serious about having an electric bike. Once I had an idea of what I wanted (hub motor) I began hanging out in the "for sale" section. It wasn't long before I found that ebikekit had a front wheel geared motor available. Their site has installation videos and of course there is plenty of information here on the forum so I was ready to get started. The only problem was the motor available was for 26" wheels and I was riding a 700c. Ironically, our daughter had a 26" that we also got at a garage sale, and she never rides it. Once I got over the mental stigma of riding a girl's bike I figured I might as well start somewhere and I still have the 700 I can work on in the future.

I checked the background of the bike. It is a Magna steel mountain bike, sold in the 80's at Toys R Us. (posting pictures now, will be back to do more editing in the future. Also want to post all the resource links as I make changes/find new info, etc.) motor is three speed 350 watt geared hub motor, 36 volt/16 amp controller. I'll dig up the proper threads later but mwkeefer did some great testing and from his posts I decided to go with lipo batteries. At this writing, I have put over 500 miles on the bike/motor and all is still well. It is over-volted ( a lot!). I have three 5s Turnigy 5000mAh batteries hooked up in serial (15s1p) for about 60 volts of power. I am over 200 lbs. and get about 23 mph on flat, no wind road.

Resources:
-General-
eBikes for Dummies
How to post pictures
How to embed Youtube videos: hover over "youtube" tab top right of editor and it tells you what to put in.

Parts:
-Torque Arm-
"Found an awesome torque arm"

-Battery (Lipo)-
Are Lipo Batteries Safe?
LiPO and cold winter temp

-Security-
"An idea for locking your batteries to your bike"

 

[neptronix]

Welcome to the forums. There seem to be a lot of us Portland area folk on here, sweet!
MWKeefer helped me out a lot too.. i wonder where he went! ( probably scared him off with all the newbie questions )

Not the best bike in the world, but sounds like a good setup. Magna's probably were half decent in the 80's.

 

[nhendrix]

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Portland seems to be well represented. Sorry I couldn't make it to the meet and greet, it sounds like for a first event it went well. I'm sure there are a lot of lurkers like myself who have been curiously watching from the sidelines.

Mike (MWKeefer) has been super. I bought a 9c motor from him and will be putting it to good use on my second build (the 700c I mention above). I agree in hoping I didn't help in scaring him off with so many questions. I do miss getting to see what he is up to (hope all is well for him).

For a first build this clunky, heavy steel Magna has been great. And the eBikekit motor has been very forgiving as well. I am actually writing in here thinking no one will take a look, and I can just make all these notes to help me remember the highlights of this first build along with links to resources I keep finding of interest. For example, the commute this time of year in the Portland area is very WET and I have seen some good posts about winter riding. Now I just need to find them and get them saved here!

Thanks again. Hope to meet you in the future. -Nick

 

[nhendrix]

With a nice break in the weather I decided to see if I could get a decent video of my bike in action.

[youtube]1Lasdz_kSsQ[/youtube]

You can see in the inset the "vice-grip tripod" that I put the Creative Vado on. I believe I got it from meritline.com. It clamps onto the handlebar and is easy to adjust. The problem is vibrations totally throw the video out of whack! I'm going to have to pay more attention to what other members are doing to get smooth videos.

Still, it was a great day to ride and I'm glad I got a chance try this out. I'll get it figured out one of these days! -Nick

 

[dnmun]

wow, not raining either. way cool.

 

[neuraxon77]

Best viewed when shaking your head to the video and the music.
Congrats on your build.

 

[nhendrix]

I know! No rain, amazing this time of year. And yes, it does help to groove to the music while watching. (I keep thinking this would be a great, "And this is your brain on drugs" commercial. lol)

 

[wheelbender6]

I like the placement of your battery bag. Is the bag a rack trunk or something else?

 

[nhendrix]

I like the placement of your battery bag. Is the bag a rack trunk or something else?

Hi, wheelbender6: I think of all the choices going into this build, the toughest for me was coming up with a good way to attach the batteries. The vinyl bag was $.50 at a garage sale. It has a hook on the inside that leads me to believe it was some kind of toiletry bag designed to be hung on a shower rod and indeed it has proven to be quite waterproof. I simply zip-tied it to the underside of the seat and added two strips of velcro (one on the back side and one on the bottom of the bag) to keep the bag attached to the bike tubes. Three 5s Turnigy batteries fit nicely on the "floor" (bag actually attached sideways) with enough vertical space left over to stack another 3 or so layers when it's time to expand. The zippered lid opens perfectly to allow taking the batteries out to be charged. Coming up with this was all by chance and it was a case of, "turning lemons into lemonade". (Being a macho, macho guy I was not too keen on tooling around town on a "girl's" bike. It turned out the added space provided by that girl-feature was just the right fit for the bag .)

Oh, and while we are talking about attaching the batteries, here is a youtube video of an idea that I hope to use on a future build. At the 25 second mark he talks about a slide in/slide out option using a seatpost rack. Very cool!

 

[nhendrix]

SoSauty, in a discussion on the viability of ebikes for daily use,
puts forth what would be a good course outline to introduce ebiking.

Simplified understanding of which kit builds are cheap and reliabile as well as addressing the flat tire issue,
Defensive driving/riding, local police could visit and give bike safety presentation,
Battery selection, chemistries, safety, batt carriers, lockable, . . .,
What a controller does and selection,
Security issues, type locks, alarms,
Maintanence essentials, trueing spokes, lubing, inspecting
Green debate, the athletic biking purists vs e-bike carbon footprint vs hybrid cars (Prius).
Hands on building/converting their bikes to e-bikes.
Half day bike trek.

If I were considering my first ebike, much of this would make great "search" terms on this forum to get up to speed! Thanks, SoSauty!

 

[nhendrix]

This post shows all the information I have relating to the the geared motor I bought...

The Thread in "For Sale" that started all this. Titled, "E-BikeKitâ„¢ Geared Motor Special $200 Complete Kit"

From ebikekit.com, What's included in the kit:
For this offer the kit will be sold as a kit only. Kit includes the wheel (26" only)/motor, controller, throttle / e-brakes / LED display combo (power led, on/off & 3 speed buttons), Pedelec & blue SLA bag.

Pricing: $200 plus shipping.

These are being sold "as is" and "first come first served".
There is no warranty. All sales are final.
Manufacturer's Specifications:

Motor: 350w geared

Total Wheel/Motor Weight: 8 pounds (about half the weight of the direct drive)

Motor Diameter: About half of the direct drive motor

Spokes: 12g

Controller: 22amps - Smaller than the direct drive current Infineon-type (about 75% of the size)

Connectors: Bullets and original Chinese Molex type

Voltage: 36 volts only (not 48v compatible and not warranted above 36v) [note: I am currently running at 60 volts.]

Functionality: On/Off Button on display / Pedelec 1:1 is included(does not need to be hooked up)/ 3 speed button on display (low=9MPH, Med=14MPH, High=17.5MPH Top Speed)

Disc Brakes: Both front and rear are bolt-on compatible

Wiring Components: The throttle is thumb and is integrated with an LED display and e-brakes. Pedelec included.

Warranty: None. Not recommended to run above 36v.

In addition to the geared kits you will notice a new double rear rack in the pics.
These rear racks work perfectly with our existing battery plates that come with the E-BikeKit LiFePO4 packs. These will be available for sale at E-BikeKit on Monday 4/26/2010 for $40.

**These motors are NOT 9C.

On June 22 I place the order:

On July 5th I receive the kit:

Now, fortunately, mwkeefer was doing testing on this hub motor and made some great initial observations that influenced how I finally set up the bike:

by mwkeefer:
I decided to see how well these Geared motors from e-bikekit work
I expected these motors to SUCK! Really I did...
but I was pleasantly surprised after dissassembling one and even more surprised once I powered it up for this first ride
power source was a 12S1P pack if I recall correctly...
I was not flabergasted by the power of this motor, the watts up said I was pulling 22A maximum which explains the lack of umph however for assistance or lower speed cruising (15-17mph) it fits the bill perfectly..
Now for a bit of performance info...
I've been running a 15S2P 10AH LiPo pack with a 9FET Infineon.... 15S Lipo is about the equivilent of a 48v LiFePo4 pack but weighs less and takes up less space. At this voltage (55.5v nominal) I see a maximum of 27/28 mph on an absolute flat piece of road with ZERO headwind... Most of the life of the pack (until about 9 of the 10AH are used) I can cruise at 24-25mph realistically... The current of 22A is now my limiting factor... on a downhill run I managed 32 and that was without pedaling and watching the load on the Watts Up... the motor was still speeding up when I ran out of hill... there was higher than idle load (about 12A) so it was still trying to spinout and likely had more ...
A higher current would get me past 30 for sure but before I mess with current changes I wanted to see what average Joe could accomplish just raising the voltage (somthing we can all do right?).
Now with this current 15S2P setup @ 22A - The economy/range of this motor is extreme... the 24/25mph top end works perfectly with the 14t for assisting with pedals even at 25mph (good to maintain speed up steep hills) and it's got enough power to make the absolute worst hills near me (I've gone some duzies) are easy to climb without standing in the saddle or shifting down... left to it's own power alone, my worst hill still can't stall it out (bike weight is about 34lbs and I am 158) but it creeps about 6mph without some assistance from me.
I am averaging (with more show pedaling than anything else, very little actual assistance) 2.5mi per AH so a 10AH pack is good for 25mi or I would assume 20 without any pedaling at all! That's just plain awesome (and when I up the current eventually, I will be adding a 3 speed selector switch to have one setting provide me just this 22A limit for economy mode assistance).

In summary... for the average joe, this is a fantastic kit... the axle diameter makes bolt in a piece of cake, plenty of room for gearing (9sp will fit) and it's much stronger than I had anticipated or than it looks.

Later someone asked if anyone had run this motor at 48 volts and Mike responded...

I have run the motor at 18S (74v hot) but not using the included controller... I did open one though and there are 63v caps but I can't make out the FETs so... until I have a chance to swap a stock controller on (or some other brave soul) ... I'm not sure if it will work, I think the manufacturer said it would do 48v so that's what 53v max?

My current setup is 15s which starts about 27mph and ends at top speed of 24 (I LVC at 3.45v right now) and I haven't increased from the stock 22A (confirmed)... more current would be more torque however I am not sure the sustainability of such power with these composite geared hubs... Once I can souce a replacement rear, I will test the current unit to destruction - stripping down for inspection after 10miles of hills and hard riding at each 5A bump until I see some signs of fatigue...

Later still someone asks Mike his suggestions for going 20 mph for 25 miles. He responds...

20 mph consistent on a 26" would require 48v and the stock controller should handle it.
for 20-24mph sustainable then 48v would really be required - so 16S LiFePo4 pack or 15S LiPo... The better performance, lower weight and possibly lower cost method would be a 15AH 15S LiPo pack but this can be complicated...
This pack would be built of 9 x 5S 5000 mah Turnigy LiPo 20C @ 42.00 each + S&H... total pack weight would be 13.5 lbs and cost about 378 for the batteries... again this would need some additional stuff but I think there are some here on ES who would build you up a pack... maybe someone local.

Now, I had ordered Lyen's 9FET controller but when I installed the kit I kept it simple by just plugging everything into the controller that came with the kit. I started with 2 5S Lipo batteries (10S1P) but dedided to try three (15S1P). It turns out I am one of those "brave souls" that has exceeded the suggested voltage. At this writing I have at least 500 miles on the motor. I only run about a mile at a time so maybe don't cause overheating that way. Not sure. Just know everything is still running fine.

And speaking of controllers, Mike mentions this...

18S has worked for months on end with 32-38A limit on the 9FET Infineon controllers...

Because I have Lyen's 9Fet controller a future upgrade will be to install it and try upping the amps to 32-38. But for now I am happy with 15s of Lipo using the stock controller.

 

[nhendrix]

For about six months I have been successfully riding the ebike to work. Performance was flawless save I had
to deal with three flats. On two of those occasions I ended up walking the bike for a mile to get it home
and fixed. I just changed jobs and the commute is now 5 miles away and the thought of flats takes on
new importance. Whereas I could walk the bike fairly quickly to/from my destination before, now I would
be in a world of hurt because being late for work is not an option. So, first, I have factored in extra departure time so I can make
phone calls and be picked up if necessary. Second, I have an envelope tucked in the battery bag with $2.05, the exact
change to hop on a bus along my route if necessary. And third, no more messing about with inexpensive tires!

Along with an extra thick inner tube, today I received two Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. An example
of my research into them is here.

I picked up the two Marathon Pluses from this seller. They were the best combined price I could find and
the shipping was very fast.

Now, for some reason these Plus tires are notorious for being difficult to mount. I'm going to find out! But to make the process a little
easier I am going to use this YouTube Video for installation. Wish me luck!

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding flats, I highly recommend Slime tire liners and the chunky Slime (meant for tubeless tires but it still works in tube tires, and plugs bigger holes). Between the two of them I've avoided flats of all types except for blown-out valve stems (at the base of the valve) on some really cheap tubes and a sidewall slice caused by a poorly adjusted rim brake I forgot to check before riding on a newly acquired old bike.

As long as the tire liners are correctly installed and centered in the tread area, there shouldn't be any problems with them wearing into tubes (a problem reported now and then), since the only other issue I know of was a badly cut batch of them they had that had sharp ends (I never saw one but know a person here on ES that had this issue).

Plus, if anything does give you a flat with those liners installed, they'll replace the liner and probably send you a new thick pre-slimed tube (they did for me, though they actually sent a pair of each).

 

[nhendrix]

I remember a thread from this last year that you mentioned Slime and I took it to heart, getting
and using a large bottle of the "chunky" style.

I also put in the Slime liners. But I didn't use a thicker tube and the tire may have made a difference too
so this time I am upgrading both. Now I will have triple protection: Marathon Plus tires; Slime liners; and
extra thick tubes (okay four: sealant in the tube too). If I have any more problems I'll be sure to follow
your lead though and contact Slime and maybe score some more liners. Thanks!

 

[amberwolf]

Just curious: what did you run over that punctured the liners? I've run over all sorts of stuff off construction trucks that went all the way thru the tire and out the sidewall but was pushed away from the tube by the liners.

Only thing that made it thru the liner so far was one of a bunch of roofing nails off the back of a truck, most of which I either avoided or were deflected by the liners. One happened to hit dead center on the liner and with the weight of the SLA and everything else in back of DayGlo Avenger at that time it made it thru the liner, tube, and then instantly into the rim, too (but only dented it a little inside, no rim puncture).

That's the one they replaced (and since they didn't want the old one back, I still use it and it's twin in another bike; it's not all that likely a puncture will happen in the same spot...).

 

[nhendrix]

Only one of the three flats do I have a clue what happened. It was a bent cotter pin I ran over and it pierced through the Slime liner and into the tube. The other two flats were mysterious, slime-all-over the inside of the tire, affairs. Maybe pinch flats? They all happened on the rear tire but were not blow-outs like with the pin. I know the liner/slime combo has worked well for others and I don't mean to make it seem otherwise. For all I know maybe by using a larger width tire on the cheap rear rim was the problem. By going back to a quality 1.75 width tire along with a thicker tube I'm hoping to prevent those unknown type flats.

 

[amberwolf]

What pressure do you run? Low tire pressure can be a great way to end up with pinch flats, especially with narrow rims and wide tires (I wonder how I know this? :lol: ).

 

[nhendrix]

lol. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is what happened for at least one of the two mysterious flats. I'll be a lot more
watchful from now on.