A123 20A Failure tests and reviews

[cts_casemod]

Hi Everyone,

This is one of my first posts on this forum, however for those who want to follow my conversion you can check this link. Pictures can only be seen if you are a member.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...sion-vw-polo-ac-industrial-motor-78701p2.html

I have seen some excelent work being done here are I would like to thank everyone for sharing.

I have an e-bike pack with headways and overal I am happy with them. Out of the measured 9Ah I did 15+ miles trips a few times with gentle pedaling and have never hit LVC. I am also going to use them as my 12V auxiliary battery for my EV Conversion.

Now for my EV conversion I ordered 96 Short Tabs A123 AMP20 Cells from VP and I am waiting for tracking number. I have heard a lot about internal defects on this cells, but not much from people that actually did have a failure.

I would like to hear from those who have assembled a pack about long term performance, and for those who had failures where they while charging? Did the battery showed a reduced capacity? Or did the battery just went open circuit? VP is selling this cells quite cheap now, so I am wondering if the quality is still the same or if they are just getting rid of stocks.
My concern is one of the batteries opens leaving me in a dangerous situation while driving.

 

[agniusm]

There are many random posts here and there about those cells. I had one punctured which made it soft, lost its vacuum. I am at 600km so cant say much about cell life yet. I tested few cells with physical damage to see if there is fire risk, if say pack gets damaged in an accident:
[youtube]FKTJ-1ZJegw[/youtube]

I did carried away by destroying two cells. What i had to do is overcharge one to see if it catches fire. Well, maybe later sometime

This is a thread about Victpower zipper fuse cells:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46244

 

[cts_casemod]

There are many random posts here and there about those cells. I had one punctured which made it soft, lost its vacuum. I am at 600km so cant say much about cell life yet. I tested few cells with physical damage to see if there is fire risk, if say pack gets damaged in an accident:
[youtube]FKTJ-1ZJegw[/youtube]

I did carried away by destroying two cells. What i had to do is overcharge one to see if it catches fire. Well, maybe later sometime

This is a thread about Victpower zipper fuse cells:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46244

Thanks, I have seen those videos. I have read about any topic regarding these batteries, and I believe most are satisfied with the batteries. My real concern is that I can not find anyone reporting this batteries for a year or more. Apparently A123 says it is a welding problem on the inside of the packs http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57404394-76/a123-systems-stung-by-faulty-batteries/

 

[agniusm]

ONSpower sells them, they are full tab cells, last i checked 35USD pcs. Victpower sells them, short tabs, zipper fuse, 15usd per cell. GEbattery sells them, still pursuing the price. I had mail from some other supplier stating that they sell full tab, USA marked A grade cells for 22.5USD but cant find that email.

 

[docnjoj]

It looks like I am going to have to replace one cell from my pack. It alarms at 2.27 on my Celllog when the rest are about 3.00. Luckily I have 2 spare cells and used agniusm's kit so the replacement should be much easier than it would have been otherwise. I'll take pictures as I take the pack apart. I use a Hyperion to charge and Cell logs to monitor and we usually go around 18-20 miles per daily ride. This replacement issue should be on everyone's mind when you build a pack since we still don't really know about the Q/C of the cells we are getting. Mine were full tab ones from Victpower.
otherDoc

 

[cts_casemod]

It looks like I am going to have to replace one cell from my pack. It alarms at 2.27 on my Celllog when the rest are about 3.00. Luckily I have 2 spare cells and used agniusm's kit so the replacement should be much easier than it would have been otherwise. I'll take pictures as I take the pack apart. I use a Hyperion to charge and Cell logs to monitor and we usually go around 18-20 miles per daily ride. This replacement issue should be on everyone's mind when you build a pack since we still don't really know about the Q/C of the cells we are getting. Mine were full tab ones from Victpower.
otherDoc

That seems about right. Remember the BMS does.a top balance on the cells. Have you made a capacity check on that particular cell?

 

[docnjoj]

Working right now on capacity testing but only at 1 amp through the Hyperion. Tomorrow I will take the pack apart and replace the suspect cell with a "known good" cell, I hope. I'm surprised one failed since they all looked "new" when I got them. Maybe A123 Q/C is not so great. That is one out of 14 failed. I will charge this cell with a single cell Voltphreaks charger when it is removed. All the cells only have about 15-20 cycles on them so far.
otherDoc

 

[999zip999]

Hi Doc, where in the pack is this cell ? Does it fill spongy ? ect ect. Good luck and all cells are alive ! Love those little voltpheaks.

 

[docnjoj]

I may have lucked as I think it is one of the outside cells on one of the 6S packs. We shall see tomorrow,
otherDoc

 

[izeman]

Now for my EV conversion I ordered 96 Short Tabs A123 AMP20 Cells from VP and I am waiting for tracking number...

you may have to wait some more time. i ordered last week and today got the info that they are out of cells, and should receive new ones during this week. NICE. selling what you don't have

 

[cts_casemod]

Now for my EV conversion I ordered 96 Short Tabs A123 AMP20 Cells from VP and I am waiting for tracking number...

you may have to wait some more time. i ordered last week and today got the info that they are out of cells, and should receive new ones during this week. NICE. selling what you don't have

Yeah tell me about.

She told me no stock, maybe tomorrow, then maybe 3 days, then next week!

I asked Xin for a refund, same thing. First 24 hours, then tomorrow.
I am finding that this cells may not be as good as they apear, and I dont want to risk to be honest.
Victpower is not inspiring me confidence either, they dont ship and they dont refund me.

Anyone else had this experience before?

 

[izeman]

Now for my EV conversion I ordered 96 Short Tabs A123 AMP20 Cells from VP and I am waiting for tracking number...

you may have to wait some more time. i ordered last week and today got the info that they are out of cells, and should receive new ones during this week. NICE. selling what you don't have

Yeah tell me about.

She told me no stock, maybe tomorrow, then maybe 3 days, then next week!

I asked Xin for a refund, same thing. First 24 hours, then tomorrow.
I am finding that this cells may not be as good as they apear, and I dont want to risk to be honest.
Victpower is not inspiring me confidence either, they dont ship and they dont refund me.

Anyone else had this experience before?

when did you order, and when did she tell you they were out of stock?
i ordered and sent payment on dec-12. on dec-17 she told me there where only 20 cell stock.
on dec-17 i was told new batch would arrive in the week from 17-22nd. but i was proposed an immediate refund, which i refused as i was hoping to get cells in time.
i think cells where not bad. actually you get what you pay for. i never expected brand new grade 1a cells for this low price. i'm willing to pay good money for reasonable cells.

 

[cts_casemod]

when did you order, and when did she tell you they were out of stock?
i ordered and sent payment on dec-12. on dec-17 she told me there where only 20 cell stock.
on dec-17 i was told new batch would arrive in the week from 17-22nd. but i was proposed an immediate refund, which i refused as i was hoping to get cells in time.
i think cells where not bad. actually you get what you pay for. i never expected brand new grade 1a cells for this low price. i'm willing to pay good money for reasonable cells.

I first enquired her two weeks ago, but paypal wanted to do some checks because I was sending $2000 so account on hold.
Unlocked the account on the 14th, money sent.

When she told me she had no stock untill next week (she kept saying different dates) I asked for a refund she said it was Ok, but offered me some headways (No stock, on a sudden when I asked for the refund she had stock again (120units)).

She kept saying my payment would be refunded within the day, then 24 hours, now she doesnt want to talk about it.

I am a little bit stressed. No refund, no batteries.

About the cells, they come with a bit of risk. There was a malfunction with one of the welding machines, hence the recall. The simptoms are what a member posted before. Reduced capacity or dead cell.

I cant find the link here (its on this forum) but you can take a look here

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57404394-76/a123-systems-stung-by-faulty-batteries/

They obviously are at a good price, no questions asked, my problem is Xin attitude towards this. She cant give me a date and she wont refund me so obviously I'm not sure where I stand at the moment and I'm a bit stressed.

Now she tells me to open a paypal refund... ?

What do you guys think, Am I Over reacting?

 

[izeman]

hmmm- not looking good. i know how chinese business is done for some time now. this sounds like regular business
when business start: everything great, no problems ahead. never say NO. but as soon as there is a dispute troubles start.

on the other hand, demand seems to be higher than supply. so they are in the better negotiation position.

i read the news article: "We believe the defect does not create a safety issue," Vieau said. "This situation is ultimately a packaging issue for which we have identified the root cause."
so there is nothing said about performance or big defects. problems CAN happen. they always can

don't know what to do. i wish i would.

 

[cts_casemod]

hmmm- not looking good. i know how chinese business is done for some time now. this sounds like regular business
when business start: everything great, no problems ahead. never say NO. but as soon as there is a dispute troubles start.

on the other hand, demand seems to be higher than supply. so they are in the better negotiation position.

i read the news article: "We believe the defect does not create a safety issue," Vieau said. "This situation is ultimately a packaging issue for which we have identified the root cause."
so there is nothing said about performance or big defects. problems CAN happen. they always can

don't know what to do. i wish i would.

Well hope you are not on the same boat, I wont buy from victpower again, I have ordered batteries before from several suppliers, including Linda from headway and had no such issues, but again I was buying directly from the factory. I will post for updates

 

[izeman]

you know this is the first time that i heard of problems with victpower.
so i hope for the best. i'm just afraid that we will get the rest of the rest. and therefore poorer quality with every next order.
fingers crossed.

 

[999zip999]

Here a note from OSN.[12/16/2012 9:51:27 PM] sellbatt: About the cells of Victopwer, my manager told me that: Our cost is absolutely higher than Victpower, because they take all levels together, good and bad and defective modules, and we only buy new picked loose cells. When they sell out the good ones, they will begin to sell those poorer quality ones.

 

[izeman]

ah! i saw that post before, but i didn't put it in relation to victpower and osn - i just flew over it.
so this sounds bad. but on the other hand: isn't any company telling that about the competition?
and probably one good thing: they don't have ANY CELLS atm. so even the bad ones are sold so the next batch would have a better chance to be good cells.

 

[cts_casemod]

ah! i saw that post before, but i didn't put it in relation to victpower and osn - i just flew over it.
so this sounds bad. but on the other hand: isn't any company telling that about the competition?
and probably one good thing: they don't have ANY CELLS atm. so even the bad ones are sold so the next batch would have a better chance to be good cells.

Izeman,
Victpower does not choose the cells. This other company I want to make business with they even sent me discharge graphs as per my instructions (They make their own cells). As with victpower they cant even give me the dimensions of the terminals for the cells. Some members here had problems and they had to buy some more cells to get "Warranty".

The thing is, after 45 days you can no longer fill a claim with paypal and considering the time they keep us on hold with added shipping and customs clearance, by the time we get the cells theres not much time left to test them. Also A123 was bought now, so once they run out of stock thats it, who knows if we will be able to get a replacement. Probably that explains why people lately are having dead cells after a few batches. I've been reading topics since 2008 and only now I see people complaining, so one possibility is they are just selling the crap to us. I mean the price is good, but I personally want this cells to last at least 5 years with 2-3 charges a week. How far they will last we dont know, two of fisher's cars stopped working and those are A1 grade cells, in packs assembled as 3P, so that leds me to believe that for the car to stop at least 3 cells got dead?

Lets just hope some more members post here with good or bad reviews. As of me I want to stay away of them, they even ask me to claim on Paypal...!?

 

[izeman]

do you have a source you can recommend? what are their prices?
i need those cells for a fun cafe racer only. there will be no more than 100 charges on it, and i ordered some spare cells.
at least i got informed quite fast that they can't send. i pay for 3-5 days delivery. so if there is no order sent out within the next 14 days i'll reclaim my money.

 

[cts_casemod]

do you have a source you can recommend? what are their prices?
i need those cells for a fun cafe racer only. there will be no more than 100 charges on it, and i ordered some spare cells.
at least i got informed quite fast that they can't send. i pay for 3-5 days delivery. so if there is no order sent out within the next 14 days i'll reclaim my money.

I bought both a 24 sample of prismatic batteries and 48 Headways from linda about 6 months ago.
In regards to the prismatics I will let you know further details once I have completed this larger order.

Xin has refunded my payment a few hours before I could send the case to paypal.

I will post further updates soon

 

[cts_casemod]

Hi izeman,

Just curious to know how did this story ended up for you.

Have you got your cells already?

Regards

 

[izeman]

Hi izeman,

Just curious to know how did this story ended up for you.

Have you got your cells already?

Regards

got them. check this thread for results. battery is built but not tested in real life. it's too cold here
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46769

 

[cts_casemod]

I didn't want to risk so I just got LIAO cells instead, 9 months now, no trouble whatsoever.
I ordered and additional 5KW last month, just waiting to go on the car. I'm curious, how did yours perform over this time?

Best Regards