A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread
- Thread starter bigmoose
- Start date
oatnet
1 MW
deVries said:
deVries said:I would suggest to continue to follow Doctorbass and his method to package these cells. Your ebike application is not putting much demand on these cells vs their intended car applications usage. Definitely use the principle of KISS.
I am seeing all sorts of advice, input and commentary like the above from you on the whole range of a123 20ah threads, regarding issues about how these cells should be configured, managed and shipped, but you have not even held one of these cells in your hands. In my book that is a problem, simply reading what others have done is no substitute for experience.
deVries
100 kW
oatnet said:deVries said:
deVries said:I would suggest to continue to follow Doctorbass and his method to package these cells. Your ebike application is not putting much demand on these cells vs their intended car applications usage. Definitely use the principle of KISS.
I am seeing all sorts of advice, input and commentary like the above from you on the whole range of a123 20ah threads, regarding issues about how these cells should be configured, managed and shipped, but you have not even held one of these cells in your hands. In my book that is a problem, simply reading what others have done is no substitute for experience.
Not necessarily so, since I get information from people like Doctorbass, you, Agniusm, bigmoose, W9BK (and many other experts), I start and study major threads about these subjects such as: Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!
I have more experience reading/posting about cells and batteries than many people posting or reading, and I've been here reading/posting for 1,000's of hours over 5 years. I have other cell types or form factors in my hands including A123, building batteries from cells, using HK LiPo, using software to test and analyze cells, etc.
on pages 31 to 33 i talk about using compressed air to prevent puffing.
something i never thought of i was told by a friend in the appliance repair business is that if air was used and there would be a short in the battery then it would be like a bomb and could explode so air would not be a good idea.
so probably inerting gas like nitrogen would be ideal except for i dont know if it would react with chemistry of the battery (should there be a rip in the pouches) and could ruin the cells or degrade their performance or such so i think the use of pressure places would be better..
an improvement i can suggestion is if plastic plates cant be used you maybe use sheets of plastic on between the cells and the compression plates to prevent any contact to the metal plates should there be any.
something i never thought of i was told by a friend in the appliance repair business is that if air was used and there would be a short in the battery then it would be like a bomb and could explode so air would not be a good idea.
so probably inerting gas like nitrogen would be ideal except for i dont know if it would react with chemistry of the battery (should there be a rip in the pouches) and could ruin the cells or degrade their performance or such so i think the use of pressure places would be better..
an improvement i can suggestion is if plastic plates cant be used you maybe use sheets of plastic on between the cells and the compression plates to prevent any contact to the metal plates should there be any.
ejonesss said:
oatnet
1 MW
deVries said:oatnet said:
Not necessarily so, since I get information from people like Doctorbass, you, Agniusm, bigmoose, W9BK (and many other experts), I start and study major threads about these subjects such as: Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!
I have more experience reading/posting about cells and batteries than many people posting or reading, and I've been here reading/posting for 1,000's of hours over 5 years. I have other cell types or form factors in my hands including A123, building batteries from cells, using HK LiPo, using software to test and analyze cells, etc.
1) Starting a thread does not mean you have a clue on the subject. I always though it was odd when you would start a thread about a hot topic other people developing, when you clearly had no knowledge of the subject matter. I just figured you did it to put yourself in the middle of an interesting discussion so you could feel important, didn't realize you also thought it made you smarter.
2) Simply reading other people's posts is NOT a substitute for experience, nor is it suitable background for giving advice.
3) Most of your posts spread disinformation, because you don't have the experience to filter out the incorrect things you have read.
4) I call BS, you are an armchair engineer - let's see a link to those packs you claim to have built. How about a link to your eBikes?
-JD
deVries
100 kW
deVries said:oatnet said:
Not necessarily so, since I get information from people like Doctorbass, you, Agniusm, bigmoose, W9BK (and many other experts), I start and study major threads about these subjects such as: Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!
I have more experience reading/posting about cells and batteries than many people posting or reading, and I've been here reading/posting for 1,000's of hours over 5 years. I have other cell types or form factors in my hands including A123, building batteries from cells, using HK LiPo, using software to test and analyze cells, etc.
oatnet said:
JD, oatnet, please stop posting OT ad hominem personal attacks in this thread. Twice is enough. Next time you repeat this crap in any thread it just shows what a time waster you are... sicko!
You posted this crap "just above" a short time after I found you to be hypocritical and high-horse riding in another thread, and then you unleashed a big pile of crap there too and, now, here too. Trolling, you are! STOP.
Here is where the recent trouble started and continued:
I'm pointing out JD's/Oatnet's hypocritical post
Btw JD/Oatnet, why don't you do something useful and either post where I'm misleading people with disinformation in a specific thread staying ON TOPIC (not hijacking OT), or, better yet, please spend your time posting useful information advancing "the cause" rather than focusing specifically on me.
Please put me on your ignore list too, but, also, please stop wasting everyone's time here with this BS. Use the PM button to 'talk trash' with your buddies... :lol:
999zip999
100 TW
Devires how many voltpheakes do you own ?
deVries
100 kW
999zip999 said:
Ypedal said:
Ypedal just a few days ago had to delete a few trashy posts like this from you a few days ago. Just had to pull the trigger again, didn't you, since JD/Oatnet gave you inspiration. What a great "character" you are...
agniusm
1 MW
deVries, i think Oatnet has a point here. I have pointed out this a year ago when i was playing with 20AH cells. Too much posting giving out advice, too much asking to do one thing or another from your part. I haven't seen a single post of the stuff you made, cell you have tested, idea that was backed up in practice and explained here. You take all the knowledge from others and shed information to others without thinking that those who do the work might be wrong in the end as well.
A lot of vaporware lately. Few pages on this thread is talk about nothing and ejonesss follows what you did last year - going through threads, posting, posting, posting when there is no benefit that others members might have. Have you seen a reputable member that we all know about post like this?
I think you boys need to be more conservative, spend less time here and more in your workshop,
..and this post is as bad as it can get.
ejonesss, have you thought about your pressurized container? Have you thought through how you would achieve that and how much additional cost that would involve? I think not.
Stop posting BS and go do some experimenting!
A lot of vaporware lately. Few pages on this thread is talk about nothing and ejonesss follows what you did last year - going through threads, posting, posting, posting when there is no benefit that others members might have. Have you seen a reputable member that we all know about post like this?
I think you boys need to be more conservative, spend less time here and more in your workshop,
deVries said:Not necessarily so, since I get information from people like Doctorbass, you, Agniusm, bigmoose, W9BK (and many other experts), I start and study major threads about these subjects such as: Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!
I have more experience reading/posting about cells and batteries than many people posting or reading, and I've been here reading/posting for 1,000's of hours over 5 years. I have other cell types or form factors in my hands including A123, building batteries from cells, using HK LiPo, using software to test and analyze cells, etc.
..and this post is as bad as it can get.
ejonesss, have you thought about your pressurized container? Have you thought through how you would achieve that and how much additional cost that would involve? I think not.
Stop posting BS and go do some experimenting!
deVries
100 kW
agniusm said:
Oatnet is full of it, when he suggests I'm posting misleading disinformation! BS. Prove it! Instead, he rants here without a shred of evidence. Of course, this has more to do with the fact I called him out on a very hypocritical attack he pointed at someone else using the words "murder" and "crime" and such, when he broke the same exact laws/rules the year before, so he comes over 'here' now to trash this thread directing his hostility at me here too. That's a troll for ya.
No one has "to qualify" here to be able to post. You were/are selling A123 assembly kits, so it was very reasonable for me to ask you relevant questions about your kit design, etc. I believe I was the first customer to send you payment on the size kits that I bought two of. Plus, I did give you one design change idea that you accepted and said you would change on your next offering. I think I helped you.
Of course, here I go again to have to post OT to explain myself in a thread about another subject. Can we please stay ON TOPIC in this thread, PLEASE. Why didn't you just PM me about this???
agniusm
1 MW
I was observing the numbers on these cells. The one which is on the tab, starting SHB, SHA(for USA cells). I have not seen a photograph of a cell with different number than 10 or 11. Could that indicate manufacturing year? Again month should be important in this equation too.
P.S. deVries. My observation. Talking is one thing, doing is another. There were a lot of suggestions and if you list most of them, sure there will be an idea that might work
P.S. deVries. My observation. Talking is one thing, doing is another. There were a lot of suggestions and if you list most of them, sure there will be an idea that might work
deVries
100 kW
agniusm said:
I contacted Erik at the A123 USA sales website to ask him about this. (Erik owns that business.) He said he will forward this question to A123 and maybe get an answer.
Also, I have learned from an A123 employee that he can not reveal this information, so I don't know whether Erik will get an answer either.
I do know W9BK posted that it might be possible to decode how to read the year of manufacture, but he is not going to reveal how to do it.
Maybe you can figure it out? I hope someone can do that.
===================================================
P.S. Agniusm, I suggest you directly point out any "bad information" posts I make, and don't do like Oatnet/JD just using Ad Hominem attacks and tactics. YOU & Oatnet & Ohzee have NO IDEA that I'm experienced with DOING too. Especially, battery knowledge & doing! I suggest you guys get down off your high-horse riding and become civilized. Stay On Topic in this thread, PLEASE. Thank you!
Here is my idea that helped you, agniusm!
A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit
deVries said:
agniusm said:
he does not have to reveal how to decode it he could decode and tell ys what the date is and we then figure it out.
deVries said:agniusm said:
I contacted Erik at the A123 USA sales website to ask him about this. (Erik owns that business.) He said he will forward this question to A123 and maybe get an answer.
Also, I have learned from an A123 employee that he can not reveal this information, so I don't know whether Erik will get an answer either.
I do know W9BK posted that it might be possible to decode how to read the year of manufacture, but he is not going to reveal how to do it.
Maybe you can figure it out? I hope someone can do that.
ohzee
100 kW
I am going to agree with oatnet & agniusm here re: the group buy thief.
Regurgitating what other people have said is no stand in for experience.
At the least people need to realize that if they decide to take your advice.
Personally I wish you'd go back to the hole you had been in the last 6 months, but
Ill make do with the ignore feature from now on.
Regurgitating what other people have said is no stand in for experience.
At the least people need to realize that if they decide to take your advice.
Personally I wish you'd go back to the hole you had been in the last 6 months, but
Ill make do with the ignore feature from now on.
Spacey
100 kW
To get back on topic from this handbags at dawn deviation :wink: I have been stripping down my bought packs and personally and very painstakingly rebuilding them using resin board for protection with very high quality silicon 200 deg C resistant no conductive. Really good but very expensive stuff, fill in all the ruts and gaps so as to add support and anti vibration help.
New cable applied i.e 10 AWG Silicon Cable with 20AWG BMS Leads, I know actually have decent battery packs that are giving out 19.5AH. Next time I will build the damn things myself, I did lose some packs though from a certain vendor that had solder in between the cells piercing them rendering them puffed and useless.
Out of the packs that I paid with paypal using my credit card and the ones which were direct bank transfer...guess which ones were the good stuff lol....never buy from China without some sort of protection.
These are picks from the Victpower cells, just in case people think I am too hard on them! These were all set fire to, overcharged and ripped up whilst charged....no fire. But they were disposed and not used...big waste of money and lesson learned.
New cable applied i.e 10 AWG Silicon Cable with 20AWG BMS Leads, I know actually have decent battery packs that are giving out 19.5AH. Next time I will build the damn things myself, I did lose some packs though from a certain vendor that had solder in between the cells piercing them rendering them puffed and useless.
Out of the packs that I paid with paypal using my credit card and the ones which were direct bank transfer...guess which ones were the good stuff lol....never buy from China without some sort of protection.
These are picks from the Victpower cells, just in case people think I am too hard on them! These were all set fire to, overcharged and ripped up whilst charged....no fire. But they were disposed and not used...big waste of money and lesson learned.
deVries
100 kW
ohzee said:
Ypedal said:
Ohzee, you're one of Oatnet's big buddies. You bought the A123 20Ah cells from him. Also, you are completely wrong, when you write "re: the group buy thief".
Furthermore, you did not tell the truth when you posted in the thread linked below too.
RESOLVED! ES member fell very ill & is working this out
What's even worse about your character flaws is I tried to clear this up with you PRIVATELY over a week ago by PM. You simply ignored the PM and never replied. (At least Oatnet has the decency to not call me a thief.)
Experience? I have plenty of experience "doing" regarding testing battery cells and assembly techniques. Besides, that's BS, when you can't point specifically to misleading information I'm posting. I certainly will not waste my time with you or Oatnet "to prove" anything.
Spacey
100 kW
Goodness sake people...let's get back on topic or I'm just not going to bother. 
arkmundi
10 MW
Thanks for the pics! Yea, there was a moment in time when some good cells could be had, but that moment passed some time ago. Of the 20 cells I purchased: 1> 12S are working fine in my pack, 2> 5 cells died and were removed, and 3> I have 3 cells left in my stash. Of the dead cells, only one had that black splotching and puffing. wb9k said that's an obvious sign of failure in the envelope and leakage of the electrolyte. I'm hoping that sometime in the next 6 months, someone will take me up on my A123 AMP20 Cells, new, legit, factory direct! request, so I can replenish my stash. The original and ongoing design is a forever pack where I just keep replacing cells as they die! A full carton of 20 is just too many for me.Spacey said:
999zip999
100 TW
It's hard to turn a 70.00usd. cell into a 18.50 usd cell or lower. I watch my cells enough to have a fill for them. But I tought I had a love afair with my 530 konion cell, Gave them a salt bath. many hunderds of cells. Moving on as I have a new love is the A123 20ah. Sorry April. If i had money i ask for a new pack maybe 16s for weight and MNC. Or what's cheap.
999zip999
100 TW
It would be good to earn your OAT'S. Then post. Thanks J.D.
ohzee
100 kW
I did a ride yesterday on my 24s pack I built and it's still going strong.
My 16s pack is also going strong. Out of all the cells I purchased I think I
only had 1 maybe 2 fail and that was pretty much right away.
I still have 4 spares which I made a 4s battery that I use for 12v applications.
I always use a BMS with these as I just like the plug and play functionality.
My 16s pack is also going strong. Out of all the cells I purchased I think I
only had 1 maybe 2 fail and that was pretty much right away.
I still have 4 spares which I made a 4s battery that I use for 12v applications.
I always use a BMS with these as I just like the plug and play functionality.
docnjoj
1 GW
I got some of the earliest Victpower full tab cells. I have 2 spares and run 12S. So far so good but it would be nice to see these cells at reasonable cost so they could be replaced. I'm getting about 18 AH from my split pack and running at 12 -13 AH for our 20 mile rides. Most cells had a "B" in the serial number with a couple of "A"'s. I can't tell the difference in performance.
otherDoc
otherDoc
arkmundi
10 MW
I hope to solve this issue before I run out of my 3 spares and am open to all suggestions. What is a "reasonable cost?" I'm car-free and can not manage these days without my ebike. So when I'm down to 1 spare, something will need to give.docnjoj said:
deVries
100 kW
arkmundi said:
You could buy 7-8 of the 26650 A123 cells to put in parallel/7-8P, and remove the bad 20Ah cell. Then, run the wiring to the empty tab slots to connect those in series with the 20Ah cells with an inserted dummy cell to fill the void thickness of the removed cell. Rinse and repeat as needed.
These cells are readily available and are on sale at the A123 website for the B-grade for about $5 ea.
bigmoose
1 MW
deVries said:
Note: we have reasonable assurance that the so called B grade are M1-A production to the previous spec. The new production are M1-B with a slightly higher Ah rating.