advice? 150+ Mile commute - Fast/super charge options

[RexRoller]

I live in the Napa hills and have a 150+ mile commute to get solar appointments 2-3 times per week. I drive 50-60 miles to the appointment and I'm there for an hour which i could also use to charge while I'm there. Then I need 20 miles to get back to my shop to chill and charge more if need be.

A 70 Mile battery with super/fast charge, like the ev stations would be ideal i think.

This is my second build. Trying to get more range, torque, and fast fast charging. I spend hours a day trying to piece this stuff together but one answer leads me to another question. This project has been quite the endless sphere

Steele Micargi Slugo Fat Bike 7 speed disck brakes - ordered!
Cyclone 3kw mid drive - Ordered!

Need to order/build: Fast/Super charging solution.
Here is where I am stuck.

1.Is it possible to make a charger solution that will work for with public ev charging stations?
2. Am i better off learning how to configure the Eaton or Flat or Meanwell psu?
3. Are lipos good for fast charging or should I go with an 18650?

I fell like i am pretty close to understanding this and I am beyond ready to buy and post my build

I am open to any options regardless of cost because I am obsessed with upgrading my commuter. So maybe its cheaper and better to buy a bigger (more)battery and a PSU charger set up or maybe the cost is the same to buy a smaller battery/ies and a kick ass charger set up. Would I get more freedom from a larger battery or a super duper fast charger?

I had considered getting a trailer and a 100lb a123 5.45kwh battery from osh for 1300 i think. Plus a trailer at $150.

I do currently have a 48V 30ah triangle battery that i can use in this mix or sell to upgrade.

I have tried on my own to get to the bottom of this. Some of it'sover my head so thank you all for your help!!!

 

[dustNbone]

Well the A123 pack that size will handle any amount of power you can reasonably throw at it. With the right charging equipment I don't see why you couldn't recharge that in 1/2 hour or less.

Considering the length of your intended trip that actually sounds like a pretty good idea, as long as you can make the trailer behave itself.

The LiPos and 18650s will both be lighter at the same capacity but I can't see you coming anywhere close to the level of charging performance of the A123s without seriously harming their lifespan.

 

[atarijedi]

How fast is fast, like, 15min?

Lets say you have a 72V 2000Wh battery pack, that would be roughly 27AH. From all the datasheets I've read, 1C is the maximum charge rate for most 18650 batteries, so it doesn't really matter how much power you can deliver, you'll be waiting around for an hour.

LiPo's typically have higher charge rates than 18650's. The batteries I'm looking at supposedly have a 5C rate maximum (so like, 12min charge time), but I don't think I would ever go above 3C (if I could even deliver that much power). At 3C, with the aforementioned battery pack, you would only need to wait 20min to hit approximately 90%, if you have a good charger, because of the intricacies of charging Lithium batteries, they aren't hit with 100% until they are full (at least they aren't supposed to be), it tapers off near the end.

So, is it possible to make a charger solution that will work with Public EV stations? Yes, if the station has standard 120VAC and 240VAC plugs. If they only have SAE J1772 plugs, things get more tricky, as there needs to be intelligent control systems.

Once you know they have 120/240 plugs, you can find the appropriate PSUs. If you want to charge a 2000WH pack in ~20min, you'll need 6000W. You won't be carrying around a 6000W PSU though, they're huge. I'd say the largest charger one would carry in a backpack, with any semblance of comfort, would be 1 or 2 3000W power supplies. But if you have a trailer attached to the bike, just throw them in there.

There is a company called Cotek that makes programmable power supplies, I have used their AEK model 60V 50A (3000W) programmable supply in the past (not for this though), but it's pricey, almost $1000US. However, it's small, it's only 7" x 2.5" x 11". They are also designed to be run in parallel, so if you had to, you could get x of them.

Then you need a BMS/Charger that can handle the power. I'm looking at the Adaptto controller/BMS/charger setup. It has a 70A charging coil, so should be sufficient for anything that doesn't require a custom solution, up to maybe 7kW?

 

[Wheazel]

Do you know how many Wh you would need? Have you been riding a similar setup to get accurate wh/mile numbers?
What speeds are you travelling? 160miles take some time.

 

[dogman dan]

Sometimes, its just time to buy a motorcycle. 60 mpg at 70 mph on this is not bad. Got it used and cheap, so I consider it a recycle. In 10,000 miles, it should settle in at 12 cents a mile. gas is 6 cents a mile.

No way you will reach that economy number with a battery. Will do better for mpg equivalent, but not miles per penny.

 

[RexRoller]

Sometimes, its just time to buy a motorcycle. 60 mpg at 70 mph on this is not bad. Got it used and cheap, so I consider it a recycle. In 10,000 miles, it should settle in at 12 cents a mile. gas is 6 cents a mile.

No way you will reach that economy number with a battery. Will do better for mpg equivalent, but not miles per penny.

Its gotta be EBIKE for me!!! All the way!!

 

[Ykick]

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

 

[RexRoller]

How fast will you be going? Speed kills range exponentially, but your time might be worth more to you.
150 miles @30mph= 5 hrs commuting, roughly 40wh/mi for a total of 6kWh needed. With 5kWh you only need to recharge 1kWh during the day to meet your needs, so 20-30 mins of charging would be enough. Above 30mph you will see much less efficiency, so will need to plan to either spend more time charging or more time driving.

I would like at average 30mph. I usually go 20 on my relaxing drives but as you said time is money here. So I'm gonna eat up some watt hours for sure. Let's try to shoot for an hour or less of charging time.

What do you think about 3kwh of the tesla battery (no trailer needed ? ? Lets say this battery was the pack i wanted. It uses the tesla cells http://lunacycle.com/72v-26ah-ebike-battery-with-luna-charger/ The issue is that I don't have an Adapto because I can't use one with the Cyclone (see guys i did do some homework first ) Then using Doctorbass solution to fast charge at any J1772 charge station? I have been reading some of his threads on that and I think they were still hacking some things. Did we find a full on solution to use the J1772?

One

1. Is it possible to make a charger solution that will work for with public ev charging stations? Yes and/or buy one for about $100-$150. Look for J1772 adapter. It uses a resistor network, a diode, and a switch. See Doctorbass' fast Zero charging for an example.
2. Am i better off learning how to configure the Eaton or Flat or Meanwell psu? Meanwells are easy, ymmv on the other two if you don't have an Adaptto.
3. Are lipos good for fast charging or should I go with an 18650? You can buy a lot of LiPos for $1300, enough that slower charging might be tolerable.

Once you know what your speed will be, estimate the power needed at ebikes.ca sim. Look at mi/hr for your charge time comparisons and remember that fast charging is murder on cells unless you keep them cool. If you get the A123, they are rated at 1C charge and can take much more but you're limited to the charger's output of 6600W with many only offering 3300W so they will never be stressed, but it is also 105lbs @~90+V. How fast will the cyclone want to spin at 90V?

I have a new cycle analyst that would hopefully dial down the voltage if I went with the A123 right?

Thank you everyone for all your help!!!

 

[RexRoller]

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

Beautiful bikes! I saw their quick charger deal. Kind of like a meanwell i guess? http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&zenid=6siv594afub26ftceutrlmmmr7&cPath=5&products_id=194

I fought a DUI. Took it to jury trial and won. I'm still working on getting my license back. Courts are crazy. But it brought me to ebiking and now that's all I do. My friends are building them. My mom is building one. It's a rush.

 

[Chalo]

You'll thrash a $150 trailer to bits riding at 30mph or more with 100+ lbs of cargo in it. I think you'll need one with full size wheels and MTB sized tires. Might as well build your own, since your application is special.

 

[RexRoller]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAh5pDG_wU

So basically this is the link to make a EV charger? http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5763

 

[RexRoller]

You'll thrash a $150 trailer to bits riding at 30mph or more with 100+ lbs of cargo in it. I think you'll need one with full size wheels and MTB sized tires. Might as well build your own, since your application is special.

The trailer I'm looking at is a Cabelas hunting trailer. I think it's rated for 300lbs to carry your game home
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Rambo-Bikes-Power-Bikes-and-Accessories/2333158.uts?productVariantId=4679878&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=04508898&rid=20&gclid=CjwKEAjw3Nq9BRCw8OD6s4eI5HASJABsfCIaKkwgAaAey76QVIMBZ6Q2iB17mR_blBU4V8y0gXZKNxoC9J7w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
I would just get he standard but it's actually built for an ebike with options like a 48v battery and stuff.

 

[amberwolf]

That's a hand cart, from it's descriptiono, which would mean it's meant for low speed (walking) use.

The picture shows wheels that appear to be just like the crappy 16" wheels ono one of the Bell kid-trailers I have f rom goodwill, which worked fine on Tiny's doggy wheelchair,

to hold up her 100lbs to walk around the yard and other places, but would probably have come apart pretty quckly if I had used them on the traielr they came with and tried t o carry her around on that at the ~20mph I ride around Phoenix at.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68997
I don't know what it's frame is like; tha tmight be more durable than the wheels probably are.


I would recommend building one, as it is not hard, even ifi you are a crappy weldere like me you can still buld stuff that won't disintegrate at 20MPH on relativley poor-condition city roads. To keep it low but still have big wheels to go over nonsmooth roads, you can do it like I built Yogi's trailer, listed in my signature as the MkIV trailer.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76539&start=0 he's 140lbs, plus whatever I've got on there to contain him, supplies, or hauling shelving, food, etc., and it works fine.

Or you can do what I suggested to Veloman in a recent thread he started about lawnmowing/etc: add a frame or plate to hold an automotive ball hitch to your bike, and use one of the cheap Harbor Freigth trailers to haul your stuff. They may be pretty basic for an automotive-class trailer but Bill has used one behind his motorcycle and his t ruck to haul stuff at highway speeds from here to Texas and back. So they will definitely be able to haul big batteries at the lower speeds you're considering.

Personally I'd go for the muich-lighter custom-built trailer, and have the weight be in the cargo.

Rambo Bikes Electric-Vehicle Accessories

The customizable frame on Rambo Bikes Electric Vehicle features mounting points for accessories so you're fully equipped for your hunt or outdoor adventure.
Available:
• Aluminum Hand Cart – Attaches easily and offers smooth movement over rough terrain. Easily hauls gear, camping equipment, treestands or your trophy out of the backwoods. Made of extremely durable 6061 aluminum alloy. When not hunting, it's also an excellent tool for moving firewood or bulky items thanks to a handle grab that allows you to use it with or without a Rambo bike. Requires XL Luggage Rack for installation and proper use. Wt. capacity: 300 lbs. Wt: 25 lbs.
• Gun/Bow Holder – Universal gun/bow-holder mount transforms the Rambo Bikes Electric Vehicle into a true travel tool for hunters. Made of lightweight yet durable 6061 aluminum alloy, it securely holds any firearm, bow or crossbow for hands-free and safe travel. Requires XL Luggage Rack for installation and proper use.
• Camo Accessory Bag – Holds gear and adds storage options. Conveniently fastens over the back wheel. Waterproof and durable construction stands up to the elements. Requires XL Luggage Rack for installation and proper use. Imported. Camo pattern: DZX™.
• XL Luggage Rack – Provides extra tie-down space when an accessory bag or trailer isn't needed. Made of rugged, yet lightweight 6061 aluminum alloy.
• Rambo Fender Kit – Provides protection for you and your Rambo from fly-up water, mud or debris. Ultralightweight and easy to attach.
• Headlight – LED power sheds light during low-light or nighttime visibility. Quickly fastens to the frame. Includes a handlebar mount, lithium-ion battery and battery charger.
• Extra Battery Pack – Samsung 48V10.4Ah lithium-ion battery delivers up to 19 miles of travel on one charge without pedaling and even more by adding pedaling power. Features a built-in USB port for charging electronic dev

 

[RexRoller]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAh5pDG_wU

Ok this is starting to makes sense. The pack of meanwells and some other equipment. Will this work ok
The tesla battery from Luna or Oshikira?

Since I can't use the adapto with the cyclone. Is there something special I need in place of the adapto management ?

 

[RexRoller]

That's a hand cart, from it's descriptiono, which would mean it's meant for low speed (walking) use.

The picture shows wheels that appear to be just like the crappy 16" wheels ono one of the Bell kid-trailers I have f rom goodwill, which worked fine on Tiny's doggy wheelchair,

to hold up her 100lbs to walk around the yard and other places, but would probably have come apart pretty quckly if I had used them on the traielr they came with and tried t o carry her around on that at the ~20mph I ride around Phoenix at.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68997
I don't know what it's frame is like; tha tmight be more durable than the wheels probably are.


I would recommend building one, as it is not hard, even ifi you are a crappy weldere like me you can still buld stuff that won't disintegrate at 20MPH on relativley poor-condition city roads. To keep it low but still have big wheels to go over nonsmooth roads, you can do it like I built Yogi's trailer, listed in my signature as the MkIV trailer.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76539&start=0 he's 140lbs, plus whatever I've got on there to contain him, supplies, or hauling shelving, food, etc., and it works fine.

Or you can do what I suggested to Veloman in a recent thread he started about lawnmowing/etc: add a frame or plate to hold an automotive ball hitch to your bike, and use one of the cheap Harbor Freigth trailers to haul your stuff. They may be pretty basic for an automotive-class trailer but Bill has used one behind his motorcycle and his t ruck to haul stuff at highway speeds from here to Texas and back. So they will definitely be able to haul big batteries at the lower speeds you're considering.

Personally I'd go for the muich-lighter custom-built trailer, and have the weight be in the cargo.

Rambo Bikes Electric-Vehicle Accessories

The customizable frame on Rambo Bikes Electric Vehicle features mounting points for accessories so you're fully equipped for your hunt or outdoor adventure.
Available:
• Aluminum Hand Cart – Attaches easily and offers smooth movement over rough terrain. Easily hauls gear, camping equipment, treestands or your trophy out of the backwoods. Made of extremely durable 6061 aluminum alloy. When not hunting, it's also an excellent tool for moving firewood or bulky items thanks to a handle grab that allows you to use it with or without a Rambo bike. Requires XL Luggage Rack for installation and proper use. Wt. capacity: 300 lbs. Wt: 25 lbs.
• Gun/Bow Holder – Universal gun/bow-holder mount transforms the Rambo Bikes Electric Vehicle into a true travel tool for hunters. Made of lightweight yet durable 6061 aluminum alloy, it securely holds any firearm, bow or crossbow for hands-free and safe travel. Requires XL Luggage Rack for installation and proper use.
• Camo Accessory Bag – Holds gear and adds storage options. Conveniently fastens over the back wheel. Waterproof and durable construction stands up to the elements. Requires XL Luggage Rack for installation and proper use. Imported. Camo pattern: DZX™.
• XL Luggage Rack – Provides extra tie-down space when an accessory bag or trailer isn't needed. Made of rugged, yet lightweight 6061 aluminum alloy.
• Rambo Fender Kit – Provides protection for you and your Rambo from fly-up water, mud or debris. Ultralightweight and easy to attach.
• Headlight – LED power sheds light during low-light or nighttime visibility. Quickly fastens to the frame. Includes a handlebar mount, lithium-ion battery and battery charger.
• Extra Battery Pack – Samsung 48V10.4Ah lithium-ion battery delivers up to 19 miles of travel on one charge without pedaling and even more by adding pedaling power. Features a built-in USB port for charging electronic dev

Not a bad idea on the trailer. Not sold on any particular set up yet. Dang.

 

[Chalo]

A propos making a homemade trailer, I recently discovered these hubs, which even I can afford:

They don't look like much, but they have bearings in them, they come in 5/8"and 1/2" axle versions, and they retail for ten bucks. I think they're US made. I built a nice pair of 26 inch radially laced trailer wheels with them.

Mounting wheels that have these hubs is as easy as welding on a suitable length bolt and using a nylock nut for adjustment and wheel retention. I'd have the bolt pass through a hole in the frame tube first, but hey, I'm thorough like that.

 

[wineboyrider]

Fastest somewhat portable charger would be the meanwell HLG's most wall sockets can pull something close to 1500w if nothing else is drawing current?

 

[dogman dan]

Love your attitude, but even at 30 mph,, it's just a lot of saddle time per commute. This is fine for recreational riding, but do you really have 5 hours to spare in a work day? Most people don't.

Love two wheels? I get it. Must be electric? OK. Time to look into converting a motorcycle, getting a Zero, something like that. You start riding a bicycle 500 miles or more a week and you will need a much better bike than you chose. You are going to use up some wheels and tires really fast pounding it that hard daily. It's going to be like you are bike racer, and you don't have a mechanic that follows you around and hands you a fresh bike. At least, trade the fat tire wheels for moped wheels with equally wide tires.

Ok,, it can have pedals,, but look into "motorcycle with pedals" type builds here. Moped rims and tires, for starters. You might need to custom build a frame too, just so it can hold a lot more battery. Towing 100 pounds at 30 mph is going to suck pretty much. Get it down to 50 pounds for starters.

Just my opinion,, you need to solve the bike problem first, if you are going to put that many miles on it weekly.

On to the charging. At the place you are working, you won't have public charging stations for a car. You'll have a 15 amps 110 plug. So in one hour, you'll get 1500 wh max. And chances are, something is running on that circuit, so call it 1000w max. But your ride is going to take more like 7500 wh both ways. So your battery will have to be closer to 6000wh. 48v 120 ah. The charger only needs to be 25 amps or so,, like a golf cart charger in other words. Two chargers could do better, but you'd have to be sure you had plugs on separate circuits.

It's not that it can't be done,, Troy Rank rode thousands of miles in a month, 150 a day or more. Read his thread and watch his vids. It was a grueling ride, and he spent tons of time fixing things on the bike, and many hours a day charging due to the limitations of plugs he could find. You can do this,, but it's not going to be a 1 hour charge. If you can add another hour charging, that can change the equation greatly. if you can charge three hours, then you can carry about 3000 wh and likely make it, possibly just slowing down the last 20 miles to the shop.

Look at the cost and weight of 6000 wh of battery before you give up on gas. I know, it sucks,, but a 1000w generator is 300 bucks at sams club. Plug two satiators into that, and charge your way home when the smaller battery dies. I'm sure it weighs a lot less than 100 pounds in your trailer.

 

[Mundo]

A propos making a homemade trailer, I recently discovered these hubs, which even I can afford:

Image

They don't look like much, but they have bearings in them, they come in 5/8"and 1/2" axle versions, and they retail for ten bucks. I think they're US made. I built a nice pair of 26 inch radially laced trailer wheels with them.

Mounting wheels that have these hubs is as easy as welding on a suitable length bolt and using a nylock nut for adjustment and wheel retention. I'd have the bolt pass through a hole in the frame tube first, but hey, I'm thorough like that.

Chalo, Interesting web site you've linked in this post, do you have to be a bike shop to order from them?

http://www.jbi.bike/web/index.php

Many of their parts, I haven't seen on other web sites.

More info please!

 

[Ykick]

Mundo, from your link - http://www.jbi.bike/web/index.php

"J&B Importers is a global wholesale distributor located in the United States, servicing independent retailers and distributors around the world."

I take that to mean, end users (like many of us) need not apply...

 

[Mundo]

That's what I meant....how do I order....I'm ready now!

So this was a teaser for us regular folks.

 

[Chalo]

Just about any bike shop in the entire country has a J&B account, and many of them place orders on a weekly basis or more often. So availability of items from J&B is very good. Their house brands include Origin8, Sun Bikes, Black Ops, Bulletproof, Sunlite and Clarks brand components.

The hubs I linked to are made by Sun Metal, a separate company which is unrelated to Sun Bikes or Sunlite and not a part of J&B.

If you don't want to cultivate a relationship with a local bike shop, Niagara Cycle is probably the most comprehensive online discounter of merchandise from J&B.

 

[John in CR]

Since it's for business you need absolute reliability. With that kind of distance it would be crazy not to consider speed and aerodynamics and efficiency as top priorities as well. For a few times a year solution, sure I could see suffering with the negatives of a trailer, but no way for what you need.

I think the best solution would be some kind of cargo bike (something long and low), so you have room and strength to support the batteries needed. It would have moped tires at a minimum, and at least a partial faring.

For the opportunity charger I'd go with the simple, small, compact, and dangerous Bad Boy charger consisting of a full bridge rectifier, resistance of some sort to limit current, and a capacitor. I'd include some kind of timer hard cutoff as the only safety to prevent an over-charged battery.

 

[Chalo]

Moped tires work against speed and efficiency, just like a trailer.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm sure moped tires are not as efficient as bike tires. But if he's riding 150 miles a day, a regular fat bike tire can't be the best solution for getting there reliably day in and day out. Look at all the tire issues Troy had on his ride, doing 150 miles a day for weeks.

On the other hand,, you can find a plug while you do all that tire changing on the road.

The first thing I thought of when he started this thread was,,, He needs John in CR's bike. 8) Or something like it. Full suspension,, big fat muxus motor in back, laced to a rim that takes a 16" scooter tire. Long bike for the win, if you are going to be packing 100 ah of battery. Can't hardly carry less, since running much more than 1000w of charger is going to overload the plugs you find to use.

Electric or gas, he still needs motorcycle tire durability for that kind of punishing daily ride at 30 mph. At 18 mph a different story.