Advice on battery and charger needed

[MikeSSS]

Use is to enjoy riding and looking around, this bike is not for commuting or playing racer.

Motor is Aotema front, direct drive, brushless, sensorless, presently using the stock controller and 36v gel cells. Bike is old mountain bike, set up for upright riding position, battery is on top of rear rack. I'm a bit over 180 lb, terrain has some climbs, the present setup handles the climbs well if I pedal hard in the big ring and mid cog, keeping the speed up on the climbs.

Comfortable speed range for me, on this setup, is up to 16 mph. (My Subaru Robin powered gas bike tops out at 25 and my motorcycle is way faster, I'm not looking for a fast ebike) My energy use is about 16 Wh/mi. Desired range is at least 20 miles. Battery charge plan is mostly to charge to 80% and not discharge down to LVC. Most rides will be in the 4 to 16 mile range.

The batteries I'm looking at are the Lunacycles 48v, 11.5Ah or 13.5Ah, shark case or carbon shark case. The cells will be either the 18650 PF giving 11.5Ah or the 18650 GA that gives 13.5Ah. This pack should mount in the triangle area of the frame, thus leaving the rack open for carrying stuff. Locking on the bike and easy, fast off and on, are important. These packs are 13s, 4p.

Charger will be either the Luna Advanced 48v, that has the option for 100% or 80% charge or a Mean Well HLG 120h-54, plan is to use a watt meter when charging. My understanding is that the charge voltage of the HLG charger can be adjusted down to say 52v to give something like an 80% charge. The charger must not kill the battery when I forget the battery is on charge. This last condition is very important. In the future I'll probably get a Satiator for charging.

OK, advice, comments, opinions?

Thanks,

Mike S. in San Antonio

 

[motomech]

I use a HLG-320H-54A to charge my Lipo and it's an outstanding unit. The end of charge range is 48V to 59.5V and since it is constant current/constant Voltage, the current is attenuated as it approches E of C. It does not shut off, but will safely stay in a stand-by mode.

But having said that, given that you get a discount when ordering the Luna charger w/ the battery(and possibly on shipping), you might as well go w/that.
The exception would be, if you envision carrying an "on-board" charger, at which the HLG excels. It's fully sealed(no fan, silent) and potted and is designed for out door use.
If you go w/ the Mean Well, you should consider the 240H, as the 120H is too slow.

Profile please.

 

[MikeSSS]

Motomech, that is exactly what I need to know. Thank you very much.

Looks like I posted in the E-Vehicles section and not the E-Bikes forum. Oops.

 

[MikeSSS]

Originally I posted this in the wrong forum, the E-Vehicles forum. Let's try the E-Bikes forum. Thanks to Motomech for his very informative reply.

Use is to enjoy riding and looking around, this bike is not for commuting or playing racer.

Motor is Aotema front, direct drive, brushless, sensorless, presently using the stock controller and 36v gel cells. Bike is old mountain bike, set up for upright riding position, battery is on top of rear rack. I'm a bit over 180 lb, terrain has some climbs, the present setup handles the climbs well if I pedal hard in the big ring and mid cog, keeping the speed up on the climbs.

Comfortable speed range for me, on this setup, is up to 16 mph. (My Subaru Robin powered gas bike can cruise at 25 and my motorcycle is way faster, but I'm not looking for a fast ebike) My energy use is about 16 Wh/mi. Desired range is at least 20 miles. Battery charge plan is mostly to charge to 80% and not discharge down to LVC. Most rides will be in the 4 to 16 mile range.

The batteries I'm looking at are the Lunacycles 48v, 11.5Ah or 13.5Ah, shark case or carbon shark case. The cells will be either the 18650 PF giving 11.5Ah or the 18650 GA that gives 13.5Ah. This pack should mount in the triangle area of the frame, thus leaving the rack open for carrying stuff. Locking the battery on the bike and easy, and fast mount and dismount, are important. These packs are 13s, 4p.

Charger will be either the Luna Advanced 48v, that has the option for 100% or 80% charge or a Mean Well HLG 320H-54A, plan is to use a watt meter when charging. My understanding is that the charge voltage of the HLG charger can be adjusted down, to say 52v, to give something like an 80% charge. The charger must not kill the battery when I forget the battery is on charge. This last condition is very important. In the future I'll probably get a Satiator for charging.

OK, advice, recommendations, experiences, comments, opinions?

Thanks,

Mike S. in San Antonio

PS, coasting uphill is really, really nice.

 

[wesnewell]

16wh per mile times 20 is 320wh, so 320 x 1.2 (for 80% usage) is 384wh. so 11.5ah 48V battery is 552wh, so either battery should be more than enough. Personally, I'd use a 10ah 12s 20C rc lipo pack (444wh) that cost ~$150 ($90 if you can catch it on sale as I did), but whatever.

 

[MikeSSS]

Two Multistar 6s, 16Ah are something I'm considering.

Lipos are batteries that I have a lot of experience with, using them in RC boats, crawlers, planes, multirotors, etc. Total cost is about $240 for two 6s, 22v, 16Ah, and they should provide all the range and power I will need. Puffing occurs with most of my Lipos, probably from fully charging and infrequent use. Puffed Lipos still work, of course.

What charger do you use? Do you charge to 100%? Is there any way to charge to 80% and still balance charge the 6s packs?

Thanks

 

[e-beach]

Many chargers can be adjusted to a lower voltage then your battery pack is rated for. If you use a bms on your pack, it probably won't enter balance mode until the pack is at it's rated voltage. You need to ask the vendor about bms specs. You might find a RC balance charger that can under charge a battery, but it may not balance it either. Depends on the charger. One way folks around her manually balance batteries is by adding a wiring harness that will connect all the negatives of the pack and all the positives on the pack. The pack will self balance over time. How much time depends on your pack. This method requires caution so not to short you pack and cause a fire. Some suggest to fully charge your pack and then ride it and then only charge it 3/4 or so while stored. (actually storage voltage depends on chemistry of you battery.) The on the day you are going to ride fully charge your battery and go for a ride. Balance charge it every so often depending on usage.

If you know about RC Lipo, then consider going with it because RC lipo gives you more bang for you buck then any other chemistry, just don't forget that you are charging it so you don't burn your house down. Around here some people compress their lipo in-between some hard board or plastic. Start here then look around for more info if you are interested. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45832

I happen to run LiFePO4 because I leave my pack plugged in over night, almost every night.

 

[motomech]

Two Multistar 6s, 16Ah are something I'm considering.

Lipos are batteries that I have a lot of experience with, using them in RC boats, crawlers, planes, multirotors, etc. Total cost is about $240 for two 6s, 22v, 16Ah, and they should provide all the range and power I will need. Puffing occurs with most of my Lipos, probably from fully charging and infrequent use. Puffed Lipos still work, of course.

What charger do you use? Do you charge to 100%? Is there any way to charge to 80% and still balance charge the 6s packs?

Thanks

It's hard to know if this is appropriate for you since you won't fill out your profile, but 3S/5200 mAh Multistar is on sale from the HK West warehouse for $16 a brick.
I just ordered 4) to configure to 46V (nom.)/10400 mAh for $64 plug shipping.
I will use JST 3S + 3S = 6S adaptors for balance taps.
I don;t think there is anything around that will even come close to that much battery for that cost.

 

[Jon NCal]

I use a pair of 16AH 6S Multistars on my bike. I bulk charge using a standard 36v aluminum ebike charger, Kingpan type with it adjusted to 48.6v (4.05vpc), which is approximately 80% charge. I don't balance charge, and the cells stay within a hundredth of a volt. My usual ride is about 5 to 6ah. I charge before I ride and just store them as they are after. I just check them right now and they are all 3.83 or 3.84 volts per cell.

I also have an icharger 106b+ which can balance charge at less than 100%, but don't use it because it can only charge 6 cells at a time and needs more connections/disconnections.

 

[MikeSSS]

So, two 6s 16Ah Multistars in series. Charge to 48.6v using a Mean Well HLG 320H 54H, charge at reasonable Amps and watch the voltage on the bike to avoid too low voltage. This would not be balance charging, like I do for the RC stuff, but it should work and the voltage of the individual cells can still be checked by using my voltmeter that plugs into the balance plugs. Is this correct?

I'm hoping that by using the battery in the middle of it's capacity range, never fully charged or discharged to LVC, never drawing a lot of amps or charging too fast, that the Lipo battery will give a reasonable service life. Does this sound reasonable?

If a cell imbalance happens the individual 6s batteries can be charged on the regular balancing charger, to restore cell balance.

Thanks for the help,

Mike S

 

[dilkes]

It's hard to know if this is appropriate for you since you won't fill out your profile, but 3S/5200 mAh Multistar is on sale from the HK West warehouse for $16 a brick.
I just ordered 4) to configure to 46V (nom.)/10400 mAh for $64 plug shipping.
I will use JST 3S + 3S = 6S adaptors for balance taps.
I don;t think there is anything around that will even come close to that much battery for that cost.

Maybe I'm confused, but wouldn't you need 8 of those Multistar to get to 46v/10400 mAh? 4 in series for the 46V and 2 in parallel for the (5200 x 2) = 10400 mAh?

 

[MikeSSS]

That is how it looks to me, 4s 2p, to get 10Ah or 4s 3p to get 15Ah.

A big advantage to using individual 3s batteries, to build the pack, is that you can use them in your RC vehicles too, if the RC vehicles are big enough to carry one of these batteries, a big if. Most of my RC vehicles are too small for a 3s 5Ah battery, so it is not an advantage to use them.

Two 6s 16Ah packs would keep the wiring simple, I like simple.

 

[motomech]

Yeah, I meant 46 V/5200mAh, but it is still basicly 2) 6S/5.2 Ah bricks for $64 (plus shipping) or $32 ea.
That is all I can fit for the frt. motor on my 2WD.
And it is simple; I replace the XT60 connectors w/ 4 mm bullets, tape 2 of the 3S bricks together and connect them in series. Then connect the 2), taped together 6S bricks in series.
I don't have them yet for a picture, but what makes it simple are these;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-JST-JST-XH-6S-to-2-3S-Balance-Wire-Splitter-Adapter-/281826764755
I only need 2) Battery Medics to ck./balance.
My main pack is 4) Multistar 6s/10,000 mAh bricks that I bought on sale for $200 including shipping. They are configured 2S/2P for 12S/20,000 mAh. That pack requires 4) BM's to ck./balance.
So in the end, I end up w/ 12S/ 25,000 mAh battery capacity for less than $300.

 

[MikeSSS]

MM, 25Ah is huge! You have some serious energy store there.

The $17, 3s, 5200 mAh packs are certainly an option. 4s of these packs would give 46v and 5.2Ah for $68

The same packs at 4s 2p would give 46v 10.4 mAh and cost $136.

4s 3p, of these packs, should give 46v 15.6 mAh, cost would be $204.

Compare this to $240 for 2s of the Multistar 6s 16Ah packs, giving 46v, 16Ah.

If I go with the 3s 5200 mAh packs, then replacing failed cells would be simpler than with the 6s 16 Ah packs, just replace the bad 3s pack with a new one.

The charger for any of these options would be the Mean Well HLG 320H 54H, set at 48v, to give about 80% charge.

Do I have this correct?

Thanks,

Mike in SA

 

[ddk]

...
Do I have this correct?

Thanks,

Mike in SA

more or less

Just to add to your confusion.

It sure is easier to wire up two 6S 16Ah batteries over a whole bunch of 3S batteries
Like infinity + 1 (pure hyperbole) jus' saying.
Depends how much your personal time is worth, I suppose.

You might also look at 350W MW single output supplies that aren't rugged-ized for travel, as they are many less pesos (or their clones)
I use MW 350W supplies and Genesis-brand (MW clone) for both bulk charging and powering my balance charger(s) with the Genesis being half the price (~$35 vs ~$70) and (so far (knocks on cellulose object)) they (Genesis) are holding up ok.

Although if you intend to carry a charger, MM's suggestion is mo better-er.

BTW I have two battery packs wired with 4 each 6S 16Ah batteries wired 2S2P for 32Ah and I sometimes use both on one trike for 3.2kW (capable- I never actually discharge much below 48V) I also have other sized packages I use including 2 each 3S3P of 5S 5000ma which was a forever wiring job and that's where my opinion comes from

 

[motomech]

Sometimes it's easier to fit more bricks of less capacity into a certain space than fewer bricks of larger capacity, but my joining 2)3S bricks to make a 6S brick is purely economic. The lipo for the frt. motor resides in a welding rod container on the frt. downtube and I have been using 2) Turnigy 6S 5Ah, 20C bricks (50mm x 50mm x 150mm ea.).



But even taping 2) Multistar 5.2ah/3S's together, the result will be smaller than the regular Lipo. I tape all my bricks, not just when combining, w/ gorilla tape to compress them anyhow and I always use 4 mm bullets (I have developed a technique to install them on the large gauge leads of the bricks). The other thing is, when building for low discharge rates, I don't have a problem using the light-gauge 2 into 1 parallel adapters. Even when wiring series first to get 12S, then parallel to the controller, which I do.
What makes using smaller packs more complicated is more about the balance leads than the mains. Sure, extra mains take up space, but I really don't like grafting balance leads together. Perhaps because the first time I did it, I didn't have the two batteries matched in cell Voltages and the rush to equalize vaporized the balance leads in my hands. Scared the Hell out of me
So when I'm putting a pack together, I'm thinking about three things;
1) Fit in the space.
2) 12S, to match my controller's LVC.
3) Maximizing capacity while using no more than 4) Battery Medics to ck./balance.
So if I can get there w/ pre-made wiring adapters (and lessen tedious soldering), I don't much care if it gets complicated. But I have everything in a bag and can push the "rat's nest" behind the controllers so I don't have to look at it :lol:

Rat's nest visible


Rat's nest invisible.

 

[motomech]

MM, 25Ah is huge! You have some serious energy store there.

The $17, 3s, 5200 mAh packs are certainly an option. 4s of these packs would give 46v and 5.2Ah for $68

The same packs at 4s 2p would give 46v 10.4 mAh and cost $136.

4s 3p, of these packs, should give 46v 15.6 mAh, cost would be $204.

Compare this to $240 for 2s of the Multistar 6s 16Ah packs, giving 46v, 16Ah.

If I go with the 3s 5200 mAh packs, then replacing failed cells would be simpler than with the 6s 16 Ah packs, just replace the bad 3s pack with a new one.

The charger for any of these options would be the Mean Well HLG 320H 54H, set at 48v, to give about 80% charge.

Do I have this correct?

Thanks,

Mike in SA

If I go with the 3s 5200 mAh packs, then replacing failed cells would be simpler than with the 6s 16 Ah packs, just replace the bad 3s pack with a new one.

When buying new Lipo, I really don't think in terms of bad cells. It's been years since I have had any (w/ Zippy Flightmax) which I probably was abusing.
After switching to Turnigyn 20C's and taking greater care, my packs just start to loose their omph after a year or so(still usable though).

MM, 25Ah is huge! You have some serious energy store there.

Yeah, but never have used it all on one ride.

The charger for any of these options would be the Mean Well HLG 320H 54H, set at 48v, to give about 80% charge.

That's exactly what I do, and I seldom get below 3.75V/cell. Doing this, my Mutlistar's cells stay perfectly balanced. Although my pic.s show four BM's connected, that would be for a total pack dis-charge, like if I charged to "go ride" Voltage of 4.00V and for some reason didn't go, then I will dis-charge back down to a "store Voltage of 3.80 or 3.90V.

 

[motomech]

The thing I have found out about buying Lipo at a discount is to stock-up.
Lipo "sits" very well, I once had some new Lipo in the fridge for a year and it came out the same as when it went in.
So, I just wait till what I want goes on sale.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, if you do stock up during a sale, storing it cool and half charged is the way to go.

 

[MikeSSS]

I need a new battery, probably a 48v 13s 4p battery from Luna.

Cell Options: PF or GA cells? GA cells costs 25% more and give 22% more capacity, compared to PF cells. GA's charged to 80% have almost as much energy capacity, Watt hours, as PF's charged to 100%. It looks to me that, for this reason, that GA's are worth the extra money. Battery life, number of charge cycles, is a biggie to me, of course both PF's and GA's can be charged to 80%. Most of my rides will need far less than full capacity but having more capacity and thus range, when needed, is a big plus, and the GA's do have 22% more capacity. On the other hand, the extra $100 that GA's cost over PF's, could be saved toward a BBS-HD mid drive.

Case Options: the larger Carbon Shark case or the smaller Shark case? Less noticeable is always better, but easy to mount and dismount is important too.

Opinions, Advice, Experience are sought to help with these choices.

PS, I'm riding at around 16 Wh/mi, most of the time.

Thanks

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

LOL! I had answered and then somehow I got the message "post no longer exists" I will try again ...

Ok, unless you're going crazy fast or far, the difference between the PF and GA aren't that important.

I have been a long time LiPo user too, and I just love NOT having to balance my nano-techs anymore! (had a 18s 2p 12ah pack for 6 - 7 yrs still works with only one bad cell in a single 4s pack)

I have this battery from Luna:

http://lunacycle.com/72v-panasonic-pf-11-6ah-with-luna-charger/

And we have used their 48V packs (shark pack 11.5 ah) for a customer's build with good success (no complaints in 5 - 6 mons now).

I would say go for the price point as changes in cell tech/prices change often enough that after 3 - 5 yrs I would replace anyway.

LiPo still has a lower price point, but there is a lot to be said for a battery that just plugs in with no fuss, no balancing, etc just works. 8)

 

[MikeSSS]

I'm planning on a new battery from Luna, there are two options that have to be chosen. Battery will be 48v, 13s 4p, 18650 cells. Most charging will be done to 80%, full charging will only be done if a long ride is planned. Most of my rides will leave a lot of charge remaining but there are some long rides, of over 20 miles, I want to do. Long battery life, both years and charge cycles, is important to me.

The bike uses an Aotema brushless, front hub motor, I weigh 185, the bike weighs about 55 lb without battery but with chain, cable and locks.

Cells: either PF or GA are available, GA cells cost 25% more but hold 22% more Ah and Wh. PF cells cost $100 less, that money can be used towards the purchase of a BBSHD mid drive, or a second battery. GA's at 80% charge hold the same Ah and Wh as PF's at 100% charge. Most of my riding is at 15 mph or less, but sometimes I ride in the 20's. I do need to be able to climb.

Cases: the Carbon Shark is larger than the Shark but is on sale for $25 less. My frame is a classic steel mtb frame in a small size, but either case will probably fit on the downtube. The Shark case should be less noticeable and that is a good thing. Easy mounting and dismounting is very important, I don't like fumbling.

Advice, opinions, comments, experience?

Thanks for the help,

Mike S in San Antonio