Another 36V Li-ion Battery : BOSCH !!

[64ragtop]

Well, FINALLY some results to report!

First ride on "Litheon"

I-Zip 750 chain drive Rider load 310 lbs. Running on one Bosch Litheon "Fat Pack"

3/4 mile first run. (mostly downhill) one led on battery out. battery warm, motor warm
Swapped out battery, so as to not get stranded on the uphill

Return trip. 3/4 mile (mostly uphill) one led on battery out. battery noticably warmer -
motor too hot to keep touching. Speed noticably lower While climbing.

Second battery on charger, ten minutes after finishing ride, charger went immediately to
the fan cooled mode (whatever exactly that means). charger cut off @ 36 minutes.

Battery shows approx 40 volts on funky old Radio Shack Micronta analog voltmeter.

First battery 2 hrs post ride, now @ room temp. showing approx. 35 volts on same analog
voltmeter. Charger did not go immediately to fan cooled mode. Charger fan on @ 10 min, 30 sec.

Charger off @ 36 minutes

Details, impressions and guesses: Well, first, I AM the acid test, at 310 lbs. My scooter is a
two year old I-Zip 750 chain drive, originally loaded with 3X 12 volt 7AH SLA batteries. The stock
controller is marked "36 volt, 25 amp". The scooter has the stock diagnostic 1/2 grip throttle, and
it shows a red led as I get my bulk moving, but as speed increases, the yellow, then the green leds
come on.

The charger cycling I've observed seems to indicate the bms is turning the charger fan on when the
battery exceeds some preset temperature. The plug that I built from scratch taps the positive and
negative contacts of the battery, and has no connection to the terminal in the center of the battery.
Earlier, I measured 40 volts right off the charger, and five volts on that center contact.

I'll post some photos of the battery connector plug that I have built and some ideas I'm working with,
but this thread doesn't seem to be the place for describing the construction. Anyone care to suggest
which forum is appropriate? My first guess is "E-Scooter and Motorcycle Photos & Videos", but if there's
a better place, kindly let me know.

ATB

BC

 

[pwbset]

Nice report... keep it coming! Izip is a bike yes? Why not start your own thread in "E-Bike Photos & Video".. everybody's doing it!

 

[64ragtop]

Nice report... keep it coming! Izip is a bike yes? Why not start your own thread in "E-Bike Photos & Video".. everybody's doing it!

No, my I-zip is a scooter, like a Schwinn "Stealth 1000" or any of a bunch of similar Currie powered kick scooters. I have several scooters and a few bikes, one of which, a Giant Stiletto will (someday) resemble dirtdad's and Gonzo's Stiletto e-choppers. I just kinda fell in love with the Bosch package, and the potential for ganging them up in series and parallel configurations to get higher voltages and longer runtimes and avoid chopping up existing packs or fighting the hassles some folks are having with BMS systems and quality control of battery "product" from unknown sources.

My idea is to keep the power source as simple and reliable as possible and keep the cost down. So far, so good! The biggest problem I've had is making contacts that work with the Bosch packs and provide some degree of "fail safe" and ease of replacement. I've cobbled up some devices that do that, but are NOT very pretty, and I'd like to make battery changes simpler and easier yet. Development continues...

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

Would REALLY like to see this setup Dude, connectors & all! (please, please,please!)

 

[64ragtop]

Would REALLY like to see this setup Dude, connectors & all! (please, please,please!)

Got Pics!!! (Might be in wrong topic - moderator???)

I stated out thinking about a "cradle" for the battery to rest in with contact blades. Started with a box, as I mentioned earlier. Cut and carved and couldn't get it to work in my mind.

View attachment BatteryCradle (Small).jpg

Went to the "Keep It Simple, Silly" (K.I.S.S.) mode, deciding all I NEED is a way to connect two contact blades to the battery and keep the polarities under control.

View attachment Connector02 (Small).jpg

View attachment SlimPlug01 (Small).jpg

View attachment FatPack&SlimPlug (Small).jpg

I cut and bent the contact blades out of brass sheet stock, soldered some #10 wire to the outside ends and superglued them to a small corner cut from those electrical boxes, and plugged 'em in!

View attachment I-Zip&FatPacks03 (Small).jpg

That's the SHORT version! Hope it inspires any doubters. I'm still thinking of a quicker way of inserting and removing the battery packs that would not require bending the wires. It will work like the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNHntWYhEI

I just need to find the right materials and carve 'em properly and mount the finished cradles in a suitable container.

Development continues.........

ATB

BC

 

[pwbset]

That's some pretty work ragtop. Nice, creative thinking. Any way you can get an all out distance report (maybe hump the SLAs for the ride home?? Or just circle the neighborhood?). Curious if you are going to see 4.2ah+ with these in parallel with that heavy a setup. I'm learning a lot about konion cells playing with them the last couple weeks and they are amazing.

 

[64ragtop]

That's some pretty work ragtop. Nice, creative thinking. Any way you can get an all out distance report (maybe hump the SLAs for the ride home?? Or just circle the neighborhood?). Curious if you are going to see 4.2ah+ with these in parallel with that heavy a setup. I'm learning a lot about konion cells playing with them the last couple weeks and they are amazing.

Thanks for the compliment! I really need to get a Cycle Analyst to get really meaningful results to post, and maybe a G.P.S. to determine if a given ride is up or downhill here in South Austin. There are lots of short and generally gentle hills, and toward the river is downhill (and vice-versa). Determining elevation change from point A to point B seems like a good idea to include in reports. I'd like to know how much current I'm drawing, and what my reserve is, but without instrumentation - well, the the best thought I have is that maybe I could use the high school track.

I could note how many laps of what I suppose is a standard 440 yard oval around the football field to a given voltage level on the pack. I could use each of the FatPacks singly to see if they are consistent, but what would be a safe cutoff voltage to avoid damaging the pack. I can tape a digital volt meter to the handlebars and plug it into the charger port that is right in the circuit from the battery to the controller. Any idea how low to run the FatPack without damage? Would a record of how many laps from whatever "hot off the charger voltage to some particular voltage be useful??? OK, engineering types, lets do some science! Just what can we learn with the test setup I have (If I don't get thrown off the track by some redneck football coach!) :lol:

ATB

BC

 

[64ragtop]

Took time this evening to transcribe and summarize my notes from the first rides and recharges on my FatPacks.
9-28-08

Packs #s3 & 4, previously unused, Hot off charger - 41.0v


Initial ride with one battery stopped @ just over 3/4th mile, when scooter slowed noticably. Second battery substituted, for ride home. Scooter was slowing after another 3/4 mile gentle uphill.

I recharged both packs that evening.

Next day, with the same two packs in parallel, the scooter felt peppier and made the 1.5 mile run with only notable slowing on steeper uphill slopes, but felt almost like new at end of run at home. I did not check the packs for approximately 24 hours, and found both reading 38.6 volts at that time.

Pack #1 charging @ 7:08pm. Fan on @ 7:26 (18 min.).
Charge complete@ 7:34pm (26 min.)

Pack #2 charging @ 7:36pm. Fan on @ 7:48 (12 min).
Charge complete@ 8:00pm 24 min.).

Packs # 1 & 2 test 41.0 volts @ 8:16 9-28-08

Packs #s3 & 4, previously unused, Hot off charger - 41.0v


Initial ride with one battery stopped @ just over 3/4th mile, when scooter slowed noticably. Second battery substituted, for ride home. Scooter was slowing after another 3/4 mile gentle uphill.

I recharged both packs that evening.

Next day, with the same two packs in parallel, the scooter felt peppier and made the 1.5 mile run with only notable slowing on steeper uphill slopes, but felt almost like new at end of run at home. I did not check the packs for approximately 24 hours, and found both reading 38.6 volts at that time.

Pack #1 charging @ 7:08pm. Fan on @ 7:26 (18 min.).
Charge complete@ 7:34pm (26 min.)

Pack #2 charging @ 7:36pm. Fan on @ 7:48 (12 min).
Charge complete@ 8:00pm 24 min.).

Packs # 1 & 2 test 41.0 volts @ 8:16 For what it's worth, the as yet unused packs # 3 & 4 also tested 41.0 volts at 8:17 after brief turns in the charger. I did not note the recharge time, but the fan did not come on, so I'd guess they were very close to max charge.

I dunno if this data contributes anything to this discussion. I guess a Cycle Analyst is in my future, though I see it more as a test instrument than an everyday riding aid. Maybe a C.A. user can further enlighten me. I'm thinking that about the only C.A. measurement truly useful for everyday rides would be the watt hours remaining as an alarm to avoid over discharging the batteries. Couldn't that be as accurately determined with a simple voltmeter??? There is a lot I don't know about the Cycle Analyst even after reading about it on the JV Bikes and the ebikes.ca sites.

ATB

BC

 

[pwbset]

I guess a Cycle Analyst is in my future, though I see it more as a test instrument than an everyday riding aid.

You'll eat those words once you've ridden with one for awhile. :wink:

 

[64ragtop]

I guess a Cycle Analyst is in my future, though I see it more as a test instrument than an everyday riding aid.

You'll eat those words once you've ridden with one for awhile. :wink:

Won't be the first words I've ever eaten, and probably not the last! These days I generally try to season my words with a little honey, rather than the sulfuric acid I used to use. My difficulty with deciding about purchasing a C.A. has more to do with the fact that I'm experimenting with several bicycles and scooters, than with any distrust in the instrument or difficulty in grasping its importance in everyday riding. I would like to be able to easily switch one C.A. from a bike to a scooter to another bike to see for myself the differences in vehicles, batteries controllers, riding style, etc, etc....

It seems the C.A. is more designed to be installed on one vehicle, than to be used as I've outlined. The way to swap it around seems to involve having either swapping the shunt and speed sensors or having several sets of same, and not having use of any control functions of the C.A. and having to recalibrate the unit for each vehicle. That, or I'm still not "getting" something even after reading everything I've found on the C.A.

I guess I need more actual use procedures experience reportage, or a major leap in imagination (or faith???)......

ATB

BC

 

[Pete]

I don't know how much variation there is between shunts. If you are just using it for comparisons then I think you can get away with not changing the shunt calibration. Or, fit andersons to your battery wires and move the shunt with the CA.

If you are playing with different wheel sizes , and you also want usable speed / distance related data then you will have to adjust that calibration to suit each bike you are using. Not a huge drama or time suck, and you will get faster with practice.

I suspect the time taken to recalibrate the speedo will be roughly similar to the time it will take to physically move the CA to another platform. I have only done mine once and that was a few months ago. I don't remember it taking long.

I think if you try to move sensors with the CA you are going to spend a lot of time mucking around with routing wiring each time you move the CA. I think you would be better off getting spare sets of sensors and mounts, then splitting the CA wiring with a good quality multi pin connector at the handlebars.

The best option would be to get a CA for each vehicle :wink: One option is a wats up. You can get nearly 3 Watts up's for each CA if you don't want the speed / distance integrated data. Just options, I think a CA is the way to go though.

 

[Tom]

Decided to take the plunge (complements of today's 30% microsoft live.com cash back promotion on ebay "buy it now" auctions).

10 batteries: $725 + $60 shipping - $200 cash back
5 chargers: $200 + $58 shipping - $60 cash back
Total cost: $783 + time to wire & build connector blocks (not much more than a ping 36v 20ah - ping quoted me $470 + $147 shipping = $617)

Probably overkill, but hopefully it's not a problem to hook them all in parallel.

 

[bigbirdlover]

I bought 2 of these with a hammer drill & charger for $210. from dpatricktools, he has a make an offer option, guess I should have tried a lower one! I'll probably just try them in parallel for now, try to find a deal on 2 more. Wish I'd known about that cash back Day sooner!

 

[Tom]

I might have a couple batteries and a charger for sale. I may have bought too many. My rack can only handle 25 pounds and I'm not sure not sure how many batteries will fit in the bag. Anyone know the dimensions and weight of the battery pack? My stuff will be arriving later in the week.

 

[bigbirdlover]

They claim it's the same basic size & weight of the 18 volt, more or less, if that helps. I should get mine by friday.

 

[Tom]

Thanks

 

[64ragtop]

I might have a couple batteries and a charger for sale. I may have bought too many. My rack can only handle 25 pounds and I'm not sure not sure how many batteries will fit in the bag. Anyone know the dimensions and weight of the battery pack? My stuff will be arriving later in the week.

I don't have the weight, but the dimensions of the Bosch FatPack patteries are 6 1/8"L X 3 7/8"W X 3"H. Due to the rounded ends and sides, I could be off by 1/16" or so, but I don't think so. Hope that helps!

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

Let us know how much you might want for what you have. I'm going to sell that other controller I bought, 72 /1000, decided I had neither the time nor energy to convert the hall sensors! If I get ANY decent offer, it's gone. After all, I've only got 65 bucks in it. I ordered another wilderness controller, I'll stick with it till I upgrade, then put it on My 78 year old Mom's bike, WooHoo! I'll probably put it on ebay, start it at a buck, & let it go, at least they won't have to wait 2 weeks to get it. A lot of people are buying the combo pack, then reselling the bare drill, they are not cheap, either.

 

[Tom]

My batteries and chargers arrived today. First impression - HOLY CRAP THESE THINGS ARE BIG! I was hoping to fit 8 in my Topeak MTX bag but there's only room for 6 (and it's a snug fit at that). Each pack is 43 ounces (2.7 pounds) - 6 packs weighs 16 pounds. I may have to re-think this.

Any idea what the red middle connector is for?

 

[bigbirdlover]

Stick your finger in there & find out, then let us know, Lol!

 

[Tom]

Let us know how much you might want for what you have.

I assume you were asking about my extra batteries / chargers? I plan to keep 6 batteries / 3 chargers and sell the other 4 batteries / 2 chargers. Before I sell anything I am waiting to hear back from the seller I purchased from to confirm they are in fact NEW.

EDIT: confirmed these are NEW and came out of a drill combo set. See the "items for sale" section of this forum. EDIT: SOLD

 

[64ragtop]

My batteries and chargers arrived today. First impression - HOLY CRAP THESE THINGS ARE BIG! I was hoping to fit 8 in my Topeak MTX bag but there's only room for 6 (and it's a snug fit at that). Each pack is 43 ounces (2.7 pounds) - 6 packs weighs 16 pounds. I may have to re-think this.

(((Image deleted)))

Any idea what the red middle connector is for?

The middle contact on the charger reads 5 volts, which is almost certainly a logic sensor. As the battery packs charge, the fan in the charger comes on at "some" point. My best guess is that the middle contact is the temperature sensor. I said "best guess" :lol: :lol: :lol:

ATB

BC

 

[Tom]

I wonder if it might also tie to the BMS? On the tools there is a middle connector as well, which wouldn't make sense if it was just used for charging? Is it possible you are you bypassing the BMS by only using the outer two slots?

 

[64ragtop]

I wonder if it might also tie to the BMS? On the tools there is a middle connector as well, which wouldn't make sense if it was just used for charging? Is it possible you are you bypassing the BMS by only using the outer two slots?

That was my plan, since I have no idea how to use the BMS for my projects. There might well be a way to use it for a low voltage cutoff, but I'm not engineer enough to try to figure it out. I see DrBass has some Bosch BMSes for sale, it wouldn't surprise me if he's got the answer to that question!

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

Hopefully he'll post it here since I'm building one of those also.