Any one following F1 EV racing ?

H

Hillhater

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Many will not have realised the recent shift by the F1 race series progressively to a "EV Hybrid" powered drive package.
For a few years, they have used a small (60kW for 3.3 sec's) electric boost system powered by a high performance battery pack, recharged by regen braking each lap.
But this year, they have upped the game and have increased the electric assist to 120kW for 30 secs (per lap) and not only use regen braking but also "harvest" waste power from the ICE exhaust by using a turbo driven generator/motor, ...(that can also electrically boost the ICE intake air pressure).
With a battery pack restricted to 25kg, this is forcing some serious technical advances in both battery's, motor/generator development, and power management software.
The first race of the season , in Melbourne, showed that there is much to be done yet to get all the teams running the systems at their best, and with drivers learning to control the much higher torque available from the electric assist.
 
What they're racing currently is closer to the Toyota Prius, etc. It's hybrids.

Meanwhile, poor Daniel Ricciardo. Welcome to Red Bull. I'm wondering if the problems in testing had to do with the fuel metering. Cut to only 60% of last year, he apparently topped 61% and lost 2nd place because of it.

What I LIKE about it is it makes them work on something new. What I DON'T like it they've exceeded acceptable limits on unpredictability.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2014/3/15579.html
 
Been a keen F1 follower since I was 12 years old watched it at all hours with my dad.... every year the rules change
to make it "cheaper" and "slow" , every year the engineers claw back the speed they loose due to rule changes
and make them as fast as the year before lol... it's the pinnacle of motor racing And the technology they use filters down to road going cars, this years cars with 30% less fuel per race, 33 second electrical boost power lap opposed to 6 seconds they had last year, down two cylinders, less engines per car for the yeah and turbo added, should make for fantastic overtaking battles when all front running teams get their cars sorted.... only thing that's disappointing to me
is the reduction in noise, v8s at 15000+ rpm is music to my ears... 6 pot turb charged engines are sooooooo quiet
in comparison....

Ricardo is going great, disappointing result
after finishing second and being stripped of it though... I don't the appeal will stand up

looking forward to the start of MotoGP season now

KiM
 
Many people have commented on the change of the engine sounds, but to me that is just too simplistic and not recognizing the significance of the changes behind the engine note.
It is like when Moto GP changed from 500 2 strokes to 4 stroke motors. Most fans cried about the lost howl of the 500 2T bikes, but within a few months, they had adapted to the new norm.
Eventually we will have to get used to a all electric race sound. !
 
Hillhater said:
Many people have commented on the change of the engine sounds, but to me that is just too simplistic and not recognizing the significance of the changes behind the engine note.
It is like when Moto GP changed from 500 2 strokes to 4 stroke motors. Most fans cried about the lost howl of the 500 2T bikes, but within a few months, they had adapted to the new norm.
Eventually we will have to get used to a all electric race sound. !
Click to expand...
I tell people there will still be enough sound to indicate relative speed and the bonus is that tire sounds can be heard.
 
With power to weight being a critical factor on the battery and this kind of R&D and $$$, I am excited to see what develops that can be applied in light weight bikes and other mobile items. Capacitor banks inside body panels, fuel tanks or motor components that slowly dissolve creating current in the process. Wind turbines in the various body hollows. I suspect there will be a steady stream of DQ's for some time just catching up with all the ways they try to sneak things in. Fun to watch.
 
F1 cars in person are so loud, standing trackside having them blast by makes you cringe with no ear protection.

I want fully electric F1 already. I want the noises to be tires and scraping carbon fiber. :)

They are going to eventually be so much faster as pure electric racecar than they are now with ICE power.

We just a ~10x battery energy density increase away from all gasoline racing being simply uncompetitive. :)
 
Turbo makes them much quieter. You can stand track side without ear plugs all day with most of the setups. Will be interesting as batteries develop and more mix of displacements / battery sizes are allowed. Certain they will go all electric as soon as the batteries/motors beat the pants off the ICE in the 200 mile distance event. It is happening much faster than I anticipated.
 
What makes them quieter is the lower fuel consumption. If it's not detonating in the cylinder, you're not going to hear it.

People complaining about the sound is probably as old as racing itself. Nobody wants it loud when they're right next to it, but up in the stands or watching on TV they ain't happy if they can't hear it. But some of the SCCA classes take some heat because people just can't get into the sound.

[youtube]r8ee9qq9ECc[/youtube]
 
What makes them quieter is the lower fuel consumption
Click to expand...

Fuel consumption has near zero to do with it. Its speed and driving skills most folks come to see. The head bangers do like the bone rattling vibe for certain, but most real race folks will continue to watch even with the sound turned off on the telle.
 
Ummm, nevertheless, fuel consumption has 100% to do with it. They'd most likely be even quieter without the turbos. You don't burn the fuel, you don't get the sound. As for the sound, Bernie is making noise about the LACK of noise. ". . . .WE need to see whether there is some way of making them sound like racing cars. . .Luca said he's never had as many emails complaining and saying this isn't Formula One." Television is complaining that it doesn't sound good in the coverage. The lawnmower jokes just keep coming. Apparently Red Bull had an old car with a V8 that made a demonstration run so the crowd got the chance to compare. This might be a long year.

Meanwhile, Ricciardo's dq is turning in "Sensorgate." It is at least suggested that NOBODY gets an accurate reading and they just have to guess how far off it is. The point Red Bull is making is that the sensor is WRONG about the flow rate being exceeded - I rather agree with their contention that this is an "Immature Technology" that is not ready to be relied upon. But there's going to be dq's based on unreliable data. That's just not right.
 
Its quieter than normally a turbo non - electric heat recovery system would be.

Imagine getting access to a power source you can charge your battery from at massive rates, like > 50kW charge rates to make a wild guess. They likely are only reducing charging loads to go down the straights at top speed or something, I can see why the track is so quiet.

In this case though, they have just quieted the epitome of gasoline racing engine design through absorbing that energy that was previously all just wasted as noise into something that enables them to thrust the car forward harder than ever before once the system matures. :)

Its been one of the first changes to F1 that I've actually liked since they started making engine restrictions of any kind on the sport. I loved the insane 2 stroke supercharged 14 cylinder madness, right along with a diesel or aircraft radial engine or whatever would fly in early formula.

Once they made the power trains all just an optimization of the identical layout and geometry design, it stopped being interesting to me from a technology perspective. I know the tech now is way better and cars are drastically way faster than ever before.

I would do F1 like this. You get one 50 gal drum of methanol to race with. Your car must not emit anything toxic. The race distance will be 250miles (a brutal 100laps of Laguna Seca).

With no other restrictions than that is must have the same restrictions on chassis design around driver safety l, and fit into a specific sized box cleanly (reasonable outside width thst still enables passing on narrow sections of tracks), and perhaps some reasonable and not restrictive for any practical design weight maximum limit imposed just to to keeping kinetic energy minimized.
 
"Ummm, nevertheless, fuel consumption has 100% to do with it."

This is a silly statement. One car is significantly muffled with turbos and significant back pressure and the other has a sonically finely tuned exhaust that uses sonic waves to help evacuate the motors exhaust gasses. Like I said. Near zero to do with fuel consumption. Maybe if one was using 5 -10% of the fuel of the other you would see some significant change, but sound dampening is all in the restriction / breakup of the shock waves. Just simple acoustic physics.
 
No, the silliness is in trying to deny it. The simple acoustic physics is that the sound isn't there to be muffled. No amount of spin doctoring can change that.

Have a nice day.
 
Dauntless said:
No, the silliness is in trying to deny it. The simple acoustic physics is that the sound isn't there to be muffled. No amount of spin doctoring can change that.

Have a nice day.
Click to expand...
So ,..you dont think a 1.6l V6 race motor , with an open exhaust( no turbo) , at 15,000rpm .......would be loud ! ? :shock:
Everybody (with a little knowledge) understands that its the turbo that kill the sound !
 
Hillhater said:
Dauntless said:
No, the silliness is in trying to deny it. The simple acoustic physics is that the sound isn't there to be muffled. No amount of spin doctoring can change that.

Have a nice day.
Click to expand...
So ,..you dont think a 1.6l V6 race motor , with an open exhaust( no turbo) , at 15,000rpm .......would be loud ! ? :shock:
Everybody (with a little knowledge) understands that its the turbo that kill the sound !
Click to expand...


Turbo cars are stupidly loud the moment they are purging exhaust out the wastegate rather than sending it through the turbine to have some of it's kinetic energy recovered.

However, these car's don't need to open the wastegate much, if even at all. These cars get to store the energy that loud-turbo cars are dumping everytime you are regulating boost (which uses the wastegate).

This is taking what normally just goes into making noise and heating the air and enables that energy to be spent pushing the car forward instead.
 
I remember the days watching the first renault turbo 1.5 liter vs the standard 3 liter normally aspirated F1's track side and just being in total amazement how much power they could generate from such a small motor. Night and day difference sounding to the ferrari and cosworth cars, with the renault sounding like a race car with a big muffler installed. Loved the pop of the wastegate on downshifts. Remember getting annoyed at the sound of the larger normally aspirated motored cars late in the sessions as they frantically tried to catch the quieter turbo cars. The 2014 motors look incredible. Renault is claiming theirs are 35% more efficient. Direct Fuel injection (about time), so metering was a logical call to more easily keep thing closer/ more competitive.

Renault+has+unveiled+its+2014+turbocharged+Formula+1+engine+4.jpg
 
Pat Eaton said:
Williams is also tinkering with flywheels.
Click to expand...

Williams have been "tinkering" with flywheel energy storage for many years and trialed it on their F1 cars the first year KERS was introduced in 2009. The system is indeed ingenious and has many applications outside F1.. but Williams no longer use it for their F1 energy systems as they have a contract with Mercedes for the power plants and associated systems .
 
I love that F1 is developing and refining engine fuel conservation technology.

:)
 
IMO The greatest contribution on the fuel side is the direct injection system. This is a huge step on the ICE front. Theirs run at 500 bar. Interesting part is that they are effectively using electric motors to drive both air and fuel in and and out of the motor. Interesting concept having electric generator /drive to eliminate lag on turbo.
 
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