Anyone used this for motor/controller temp measurement?

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

It's a Norxi. Note that the probe, unfortunately, is sealed.
While on the sales page it looked like I could remove the cylinder head screw and use a tiny probe wire end.



Since one can't send stuff back to China, now I am wondering, how can I make use of this (otherwise brilliant) temp meter?
You can't just cut the wire before the screw: where exactly is the thermistor or thermocouple, you don't want to destroy it.
What have you done?
Or, what would you do?

 

[DaLanMan]

I would stab a probe into the wires (through the casing) and then oo a sequence of tests with buckets of hot and cold water. check the connectivity. odds are it is a reistance drop that is being measured for temp. If that is the case, figure out what range it is in and hit an electronics shop and get whatever end probe your heart desires.

 

[AGS]

One meter for controller temperature and the other for motor temperature and the relays paralleled to sound a buzzer.

XH-W3001 3002 ST3012 STC1000 3008 3028 Digital Temperature Controller Thermostat | eBay

Press the up button once, the startup temperature will be displayed, long press the up button for about 3 seconds, the startup temperature number will flash, and the desired temperature value can be set by the up and down buttons.

www.ebay.co.uk

Pardon our interruption...

 

[RunForTheHills]

I would probably just throw it in the parts bin. Something may come up in the future that it will work perfectly for.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

I would stab a probe into the wires (through the casing) and then oo a sequence of tests with buckets of hot and cold water. check the connectivity. odds are it is a reistance drop that is being measured for temp. If that is the case, figure out what range it is in and hit an electronics shop and get whatever end probe your heart desires.

The first half, I thought you're taking the mickey(?), then after the "buckets of hot and cold water", you mentioned sensible things, so when I finished reading all, I was left wondering "what did he mean??"
I am still thinking the same, ie, I haven't understood you, sorry.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

One meter for controller temperature and the other for motor temperature and the relays paralleled to sound a buzzer.

XH-W3001 3002 ST3012 STC1000 3008 3028 Digital Temperature Controller Thermostat | eBay

Press the up button once, the startup temperature will be displayed, long press the up button for about 3 seconds, the startup temperature number will flash, and the desired temperature value can be set by the up and down buttons.

www.ebay.co.uk

Pardon our interruption...

View attachment 350145

That is brilliant, AGS, thanks. They have multiple different units on the same page. So, you got the ST3012? That is better than the one I have (which I only just now remembered thanks to your reply! ):


I got three of those (12V, 24V, and 240V) many years ago for my tiny house, totally forgot that I never made use of the 12V one! Perfect!)
But your 3012 I like more: 2 measurements in one display? Is it weatherproof?
Because my thing (I think) is not rain-proof.
You mounted the 3012 on the handlebar? Photo?
What do you mean by buzzer, which item do you use, piezo element?, through the horn?
And, at what temps do you let the probes buzz?

 

[DaLanMan]

::sighs:: I do try my best to be more 'marican in m explanations, but I fairly often try to jot out a quick message and it comes out the way I think.. which is dreadfully untidy.

So, to explain, with a good set of probes for a bench meter you will often notice that the bluntish tip of the hot lead is removable, underneath that is a very very fine and sharp needle. The reason for such a thing is testing wires inside of their jackets, you can literally push that probe right through (not all kinds, avoid doing this if the outer jacket is viny) because you will not be causing a big enough hole to drastically damage the jacketings security.

Now you have a probe jammed into what we will hope is the signal wire, being that a lot of the units in question only have one wire, odds are pretty good.

Thermo-gauging is done in a multitude of ways. Most common and most robust is you have a wire going dowin into a potted mass, while this generally does nothing for telling you the temperature, the material it is potted changes it's conductivity/resistance in a pattern that is then mapped.

Once you have that map, you have what is generally referred to as "a slow response thermometer"

Once you have access to that signal, but making your own map, you can find out *what kind* of unit you have, then just get another one that works the same way (IE using the same material) and you can just direct replace the one you had, with one that will fit the need.

See, in my head all that fit neatly in the first paragraph.

 

[AGS]

I will be ordering the components after Easter to try them out. I don’t intend to ride in the pouring rain, although I may get caught out in the occasional shower. It will be mounted on my cockpit above the display. And I’m thinking about using a 12 volt piezo buzzer via the relay outputs to give me an audible warning so I don’t need to keep looking down at my cockpit. I did initially think about wiring the relays to my low brakes, but I’d prefer to have control rather than the controller automatically cutting power to the motor.

I‘m thinking of setting the controller alarm to 90C and motor alarm to 100C. But it depends how well it stands up to EMF noise. If it’s too noisy then the meters only give sensible readings with the throttle off, so the alarm won’t work properly because it will trigger with noise rather than real temperature. The wires are long, not twisted and not shielded. Soldering capacitors across the sensors may help, but I won’t know for sure until it’s all wired up and tested. With a bit of luck the 3012 has something already built in to compensate for noise, but it probably wasn’t designed for use in a such a noisy motor and controller.

I’m using an LM35 in the motor on a different bike, because I only have the white wire for temperature output from the motor and that suffers from noise. I fitted a snubber circuit that has improved it. It’s still not perfect, but good enough. I just let off the throttle or stop peddling when I want to see the real motor temperature.

My controller is an MQCON Sabvoton 72100 from Risunmotor and already has a thermistor to protect it, (top right in the photo). It measures around 2.57k ohms at ambient temperature. The settings aren’t user configurable so I’m assuming and hoping that it is all factory set in the firmware or hardware for thermal rollback and high temperature cut off.

But I also want to have a temperature meter, so I will put one of the NTC 10K thermistors next to the existing one inside the controller. Two sensors will fit on that pad. The other will replace the KTY83 inside the motor.

I have already fed a pair of wires (blue and green) into the controller for the NTC 10K and modified the external wiring for the motor temperature sensor. I don’t think it’s necessary to mount the sensor inside the controller if you are reticent about taking your controller apart. Glueing or bolting it to the case should give a reasonable result.

This Sabvoton doesn’t support motor temperature, there is no white wire on the hall sensor plug feeding into the controller, but I have 2 wires in the motor cable that I can use for an NTC 10K. They are both currently connected to one side of a KTY83. The other side of the KTY83 is connected to ground, so it’s an easy rewire inside the motor to swap the sensors around.



If you already have a 12 volt 3002 then you can do some testing. I won’t get my 3012 from China for two to three weeks on speed pack economy delivery. All I can do in the meantime is fit the temperature sensors to the controller and motor and finish the wiring.

I did a search on ES to try and find out what other people are doing for simple temperature monitoring, but it didn’t yield very good results. I also posted a new thread a few days ago about something similar and got hardly any response, but it was Sabvoton specific.

Risunmotor Sabvoton 72100 Controller Temperature Settings

Hi all I have come across a problem with my controller when I try to set temperature settings using the MQCON app and they won’t save. I also only have one set of temperature configurable settings on the app for my iPad, Teranovo version. I have seen some screenshots of two sets, one for the...

endless-sphere.com

I think what DaLanMan is trying to explain is that to find out what kind of thermistor is fitted to the Norxi is to pierce the wires using pointed multimeter probes to measure the resistance at various temperatures to determine what value the thermistor is, because they don’t state the thermistor value on their website.

I chose the 3012 because the seller states that the thermistor is an NTC 10K and these are readily available all over the place for pennies.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

Thermo-gauging is done in a multitude of ways. Most common and most robust is you have a wire going dowin into a potted mass, while this generally does nothing for telling you the temperature, the material it is potted changes it's conductivity/resistance in a pattern that is then mapped.

Yes, that is then a thermistor.
The other way temp is measured is thermocouple.
I am not experienced enough to see if the pictured "Norxi" is one or the other? The "Manual" (lol) doesn't say.

The "piercing" part I still don't understand, nor the "buckets of water", but that will be just myself, don't take it personal, I can't understand everything.

To be frank ("honest", lol, always honest): I was hoping I can salvage at least the display of the Norxi, as it's brilliant (waterproof too).
But the whole thing is sealed (it's China made I am sure, not screwed), I won't break open the case (remember, it's waterproof) just to replace the wiring.
I might at some point dare to just cut the wire right at the cylinder head screw, and see if I can do what (I think) you're suggesting, like, connecting the wire to my own (other) thermistor wires that I have from various devices (incl. multimeters).
But I don't know yet, am slow to make such decisions.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

I‘m thinking of setting the controller alarm to 90C and motor alarm to 100C.

100C for motor I would never recommend. The Neodymium magnets used these days lose magnetism from 80C. I will stop for cooling at 80C.
90C on the controller depends on what capacitors etc are in the Sabvoton, I wouldn't even be able to tell for the Fardriver, haven't opened up my first and only such controller.

But it depends how well it stands up to EMF noise. If it’s too noisy then the meters only give sensible readings with the throttle off

Oh! I didn't know that the thermistor readings are so susceptible? Hmm, would these help you, which I have at home?



"I think what DaLanMan is trying to explain is that to find out what kind of thermistor is fitted to the Norxi is to pierce the wires using pointed multimeter probes to measure the resistance at various temperatures to determine what value the thermistor is, because they don’t state the thermistor value on their website."

Okay! That helped me understand it, thank you. And then, subject to the measured resistance, look for a new probe?

 

[AGS]

Yep 100C for the motor may be too high, but I won’t know what the motor temperature will be under normal use until I can measure it. I just ordered all of the parts including a 3mm thick aluminium plate for mounting the controller and a couple of heat sinks, so I will see in a couple of weeks time.

I‘ve built up the ebike, and now getting around to making it usable.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

Okay, finally someone who built something waterproof! Looks like you plan to be able to go around the globe on one charge?
Very clean edges. Just don't hurt yourself on those edges.

 

[E-HP]

Yep 100C for the motor may be too high, but I won’t know what the motor temperature will be under normal use until I can measure it.

I use Grin's guidance:
"In general most hub motors can withstand core temperatures of up to 150 °C for short times without suffering insulation damage or demagnetization, but it's advisable both for headroom and motor efficiency to keep motor core temperatures below about 110-120 °C."

My rollback temp is set to 90C and cutoff at 120C. I regularly, but not frequently, exceed the 90C and my Cycle Analyst's rollback will keep the temps in check unless the motor is near stalling. The highest temp I've seen when not paying attention, and with rollback happening was 108C, and the highest while paying attention during testing was 110C, at a near stall. Other than needing the Statorade topped off, the motor has been running strong for thousands of miles and hills. For context, starting with the motor at ambient temps, it will just reach 100C after about a 1 mile 20% climb.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

I use Grin's guidance:
"In general most hub motors can withstand core temperatures of up to 150 °C for short times without suffering insulation damage or demagnetization, but it's advisable both for headroom and motor efficiency to keep motor core temperatures below about 110-120 °C."

OMG!
Well, fans will always be fans.

 

[E-HP]

OMG!
Well, fans will always be fans.

The OP can set the thresholds to whatever he’s comfortable with. I won’t cast any dispersions as some might. The ability to monitor and adjust is what’s important.

 

[DogDipstick]

Yes, that is then a thermistor.
The other way temp is measured is thermocouple.
I am not experienced enough to see if the pictured "Norxi" is one or the other? The "Manual" (lol) doesn't say.

I build alot of things with thermocouple and pile based resistor arrays that use PID loop thermocontrolers from china with thermocouples to press marijuana in bulk into concentrates. To read a J, K etc style thermocouple you need an ac operational amplifier and a voltage metering circuit.

Themistors are NON OHMIC: the resistancew changes with tempearture ( like a light bulb.. Non ohmic.. ie does not follow Ohms law... )... Thermocouples are just two peices of dissimilar metal with a junction connectin each other to the tother. ( metal, conductive)
A thermistor WILL BE either be NTK or PTK.. '' Positive" or "negative "temperature coefficient and show a resistance on a multimeter. This resistance changes with the temperature. On continuity setting, the thermistor will nOT show a direct short.
....a thermocouple will show a direct short. ( < 20 Ohms) on a multimeter Continuity setting. it will output a mV upon temp change.

A thermopile ( bunch of thermocouples in series ) will also show a direct short. ( < 20 Ohms) ....

A cool trick for a multimeter with a thermocouple setting is set it on & temp and short the probes. the room temp will display on the screen, no extra thermocouple needed.

AS FOR THE TEMP:

NO 100C IS NOT TO HIGH. the neo magnets DO NOT lose the magnetism from " 80C"... it all about what grade is used.

I rode a hub motor for years at 180C contin with peaks around 200C. No problem. Years. at 3.3kW on a 1kW hub. with 8kW peaks.... hub blew up when i increased that to 4.5kW. on a 1kW hub with 12kW peaks. Years of datalogs recording the temp.

In fact.. QS MOTORS ( a major hub manufacturer who posts here) tells u the QS grade is SH35... and can handle 160*C for contious duty.

All QS motors magnets are SH35.. and they make tons of motors fr many companies....

100C for motor I would never recommend. The Neodymium magnets used these days lose magnetism from 80C. I will stop for cooling at 80C.

... if ... <80C is " never recomend" ... why... did this hub last for years?



I got a thousand datalog showing tens of thousands of miles riding around 100*C. certainly.

many up around 150*C - 200*C too. This hub lived its entire 25k mile life over 100C*.

 

[Zambam]

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...t_main.95.2b991802Nn7FA2&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

Works for me.

Quick response.

Exposed tip thermocouple epoxied to TSDZ2 motor lamination.

 

[Tomorrowwedietodayweride]

A

Until you posted this experience I could only refer to what my manufacturer, QS, Ron and Eric on ElectricBike.com, and 95%(?) others online and offline, my Uni etc, shared with me, which is what I wrote, and sadly all motors in the QS motor list they sent me, all motors too write "Working Temperature: 70 degree, Peak 120 degree (short time)".

I am so happy for you. Consider yourself an extremely lucky man, for what you bought: an EXCELLENT motor, with the highest quality magnets, wiring, insulation, conduits, etc etc etc, all that's in a hub. BE HAPPY.
Where can I, and others, buy such motor also, which you got, please, do you sell them, or got a link?

 

[DogDipstick]

Where can I, and others, buy such motor also, which you got, please, do you sell them, or got a link?

From QS motor directly through representatives here such as Vito, Judy, or Vincent.....

QSMOTOR,0.5-12kW Electric Hub Motor & Mid Drive Motor Manufacture China

QS Motor Electric In Wheel Hub Motor List Official Web: http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cnqsmotor/ There are many store sale QS Motor and Electric Motor Kits on aliexpress, I would like to make it more clearly for better understanding. SiAECOSYS (SIA in short) is...

endless-sphere.com

 

[mindgames11]

I build alot of things with thermocouple and pile based resistor arrays that use PID loop thermocontrolers from china with thermocouples to press marijuana in bulk into concentrates. To read a J, K etc style thermocouple you need an ac operational amplifier and a voltage metering circuit.

Themistors are NON OHMIC: the resistancew changes with tempearture ( like a light bulb.. Non ohmic.. ie does not follow Ohms law... )... Thermocouples are just two peices of dissimilar metal with a junction connectin each other to the tother. ( metal, conductive)
A thermistor WILL BE either be NTK or PTK.. '' Positive" or "negative "temperature coefficient and show a resistance on a multimeter. This resistance changes with the temperature. On continuity setting, the thermistor will nOT show a direct short.
....a thermocouple will show a direct short. ( < 20 Ohms) on a multimeter Continuity setting. it will output a mV upon temp change.

A thermopile ( bunch of thermocouples in series ) will also show a direct short. ( < 20 Ohms) ....

A cool trick for a multimeter with a thermocouple setting is set it on & temp and short the probes. the room temp will display on the screen, no extra thermocouple needed.

AS FOR THE TEMP:

NO 100C IS NOT TO HIGH. the neo magnets DO NOT lose the magnetism from " 80C"... it all about what grade is used.

I rode a hub motor for years at 180C contin with peaks around 200C. No problem. Years. at 3.3kW on a 1kW hub. with 8kW peaks.... hub blew up when i increased that to 4.5kW. on a 1kW hub with 12kW peaks. Years of datalogs recording the temp.

In fact.. QS MOTORS ( a major hub manufacturer who posts here) tells u the QS grade is SH35... and can handle 160*C for contious duty.

All QS motors magnets are SH35.. and they make tons of motors fr many companies....

View attachment 350209



... if ... <80C is " never recomend" ... why... did this hub last for years?



I got a thousand datalog showing tens of thousands of miles riding around 100*C. certainly.

many up around 150*C - 200*C too. This hub lived its entire 25k mile life over 100C*.

View attachment 350212



View attachment 350210
View attachment 350211

what are you using for datacollection there? I like it.

 

[DogDipstick]

what are you using for datacollection there? I like it.

I use the cycle Analyst v3 with the Cycle Analogger option. Piggy backs on a CA3 and records EVERYTHING the CA does.. watts, amps, volts, miles, GPS, etc.

I do love the machine. very good records, records at a 10 cycles per second rate ( every ten records a second passed). Many claim this and that.. but the data is real and infallible when it comes from this datalogger.

I got about 5 or 6 thousand logs of me riding my bike.

Product;

Cycle Analogger

Cycle Analogger for Recording CA Data to SD Memory Card. Full Product Information Page

ebikes.ca