are 18650 safe overchrged from 4,2V to 5,0V?

[batteryGOLD]

Hi check this battery went up to aprox 4,6V per block, becauseeee bms top cut no working!
and no fire or explode.. at least this one..
do not try this at any battery!
NEVER OVERCHARGE BATTERY, could cause fire or explode!

those chinease batteries are crazy, here goes:

 

[batteryGOLD]

I've also done over chargin to a Turningy Lipo battery
seems no fire or expolosion at aprox 4,5V

maybe this topic applies to Battery Doctor YT dude
but he disappeared..

NEVER OVERCHARGE BATTERY MORE THAN 4,2V per S element

Anyway, here is tha pic

 

[liveforphysics]

When a cell is fresh (100% SOH), the cell has a generous anode overcapacity in additional graphite, a ratio between 1.2:1 1.35:1 is typical. This enables the cell to age to end of life and not blow up from overcharge while just at 4.2V. The anode ages faster than the cathode, loses capacity faster, and hence the safe margin of overcharge reduces as it ages.

Some over capacity cycle which dont induce runaway do reduce a cell to end of life impedance and capacity SOH in a single cycle. This makes it the most risky and most expensive energy you can store in the cell (graphite all LiC6 phase).

Even under the best of circumstances, you may have a fire on the first time reaching this voltage.

 

[Hillhater]

Just because something is possible to do,…. It does not mean it should be done !

 

[batteryGOLD]

Someone has to do tha dirty work, testing electronics at limit by own responsibility to release results!
we should know all profile life style of components & limit between safe and self destruction of a component. its nice to see fails, just sayin..

How much volts will a battery S element hang until self destroy? maybe 4,7V, 4,8V, +5,0V..
How much volts is the limited between stable lithium and a fire/explode?

how much do You pay me to release a video testing voltage limits on Lipo 3S Turnigy 500Apeak 75C battery or a 16S 20Ah battery going up on fire/explode?
just to enjoy video and to know limit volts between "safe" and a fire/explosion or some one do video for free? anyone works for free??

bet how much volts. maybe 5V volts and than goes on fire?
did U ever exploded electrolytic capacitors doin voltage overcharge?

Warning: NEVER TRY TO OVERCHARGE BATTERY

Thanks

 

[liveforphysics]

[youtube]dree0rTr1HM[/youtube]

Around a decade ago I was finding out these answers as a hobby for fun.

Now we find out these answers for global EV industry, but inside 1.5inch thick 316ss ARC calorimeters with gas samplers and scrubbers on the byproduct gases, and with excellent PPE including powered respirators.

Start with cell level tests, and when you've got a good characterization of the over temp, over charge, nail pen, short-circuit behavior at the cell level, you can better understand what PPE and location is needed to have many successful informative pack level tests safely when you're ready.

 

[nicobie]

Nothing better than being able to make a good living with your hobby.

I'm proud of you my friend.

 

[eMark]

-ridiculous, stupid, foolish, waste of time, lost cause, vain attempt, wasted labor, nonsense-

Any eXtra energy power from 4.50V to 4.20V is so brief as to serve NO useful advantage. Any gain is more than offset by a far shorter cycle life with safety a major concern. Charge to 4.15V instead of 4.20V for longer cycle life with negligible decrease in energy power performance :thumb:

 

[batteryGOLD]

-ridiculous, stupid, foolish, waste of time, lost cause, vain attempt, wasted labor, nonsense-

Hi Sir, U are correct, its a waste of time and not very professional behavior.. I just got more 20% eXtra @ 4,6V but life cycles could down to x100 if doin this crazy behavior (danger of fire )
At company I work, after repaired and built ++hundreds of escooter/ebike batteries (a lot of customers happy so far) plus many cases study/experiments at successful battery recover/reuse processes and electronics experiments, now I want also to do some artistic work production plus educative content

These days I wrote by hand entire A4 50pages PT Portugal language containing many knowledge about repairing lithium batteries, with examples and some math useful for lithium battery repair/build/optimization/reuse/secondlife. I keep working at a lithium battery lab for +2years and some very useful knowledge is now at paper! could apply for some battery businesses and for particular repair/reuse/knowledge.
I don't know if I'm goin to write it at computer with added pictures for a final 100pages book. maybe for myself and for those that deserve that gold info..
Most recover processes are tested successful by me, but I need to protect content to company I work for.. I'm confused about business processes content protection..

Remember when U look at a battery U need to visualize a electronic circuit with resistors and capacitive elements, U need to analyse those or just IR to know battery health and quick fit repair process, or to visualize a new battery build as a state of art work circuit! (not advertising!)
do You know some people throw away batteries just because have a bad cell inside? imagine this, a 10P20S Samsung 30Q, 200cells, but just one is leaking voltage, leading to one S block array lose voltage over time lead to BMS earlier cut. this happened with one customer! he sold that battery 100eur to other person! than the person found the leak cell and replaced it with new 30Q and battery back to original ~30Ah capacity!! some people are crazy!

Buttt thinking about money to live and eat.. How much could I sell online a nice 100pages book containing that kind of content? (I dont have money to own a Tesla, but a have a super nice gas Ford Focus from 08 maybe upgrade to ST! )
If some battery companies reads that book than able to do much more profit and get more knowledge! Unless reader is kind of dumb!

Wish U ALL a nice festive epoch and power 2023

 

[batteryGOLD]

Nothing better than being able to make a good living with your hobby.
I'm proud of you my friend.

Thank You Sir! Its hobby after duty work. "hobby" is not paid enough!
I see U have 1,21GW, I wish too!



Do you remember Einstein when He released all his scientific methods to curious? They done bad stuff with concept and some nuclear weapons plus 18650 cells based at E=mc2 and a 18650 could supply a entire city many years!(conspiracy) E=mc2 soo 50grams 18650 cold fusion equals x energy..
Einstein is explaining ALL "under pressure". E=mc2 and much more.. also he talks about lithium 18650 cells for tha future.

Anyway check this nice old school pics :thumb:

 

[eMark]

-ridiculous, stupid, foolish, waste of time, lost cause, vain attempt, wasted labor, nonsense-

Hi Sir, U are correct, its a waste of time and not very professional behavior.. I just got more 20% eXtra @ 4,6V but life cycles could down to x100 if doin this crazy behavior (danger of fire )

FWIW(JMO), 20% eXtra is all of the above 8 synonyms (1865/2170/4680) unless the intention is using it as a potential destructive Xtra force -- BOMB.

Do you or 99.9% of todays physicists really understand or agree as to how Einstein went about finally figuring out that the speed of light is squared E=mc². Apparently it's impossible for a number to be greater than its square thus creating even a Bigger BANG! For example the really BIG BANG that started it all.
Actually the BIG BANG was a really BIG Creation Force instead of a destructive force.

 

[Hillhater]

“

…i got 20% extra..

..extra what ??..voltage that has no Ah capacity ?
..how much wasted energy to get to 4.6 v !

Einstein is explaining ALL "under pressure". E=mc2 and much more.. also he talks about lithium 18650 cells for tha future.

What are you smoking !

 

[batteryGOLD]

potential destructive Xtra force -- BOMB.
Do you or 99.9% of todays physicists really understand or agree as to how Einstein went about finally figuring out that the speed of light is squared E=mc²

Einstein should not ever given all formulas and explains to Manhattan project, those used Einstein theory to build real nuclear bombs. (conspiracy), plus many others that copied formulas (S Correa, China, inside USA, etc) those have at moment heavy military nuclear stuff, based at that theory E=mc2

This is scary, but seee in a good way, If U have a glass of water and if U extract all energy from it w cold fusion U get
mass of 200g, so how much power will output using E=mc2?

Bing bang says maybe universe beginning could similar to bomb exploding under water (see under water explosions high frame rate. expand sphere than collapse at center) , at explosion moment all water around spreads in a sphere shape, until max vacuum inside sphere. then it collapses to inside middle point, making extreme force after collapse at center point!
a destabilized system tend to return to original stable state..

Big bang initiated because very opposed particles charges where flying in universe, than collided! It's similar to a huge short circuit! releasing many matter around center and light (sphere shape spread). thats why universe keeps expanding. all stars are fragments from very a old explosion. but some time point it will reverse and all goes back to center! U are now at expanding time frame, but when it reverses to contract all stuff in universe will be sucked to center of big bang explosion (conspiracy)
just sayin..

 

[batteryGOLD]

“…i got 20% extra..
..extra what ??..voltage that has no Ah capacity ?
..how much wasted energy to get to 4.6 v !

Testing discharging 6P 12Ah @ 4,6V give an output of +14,2Ah @ 10A dischrge
seems outputs 20% more capacity at danger voltge zone. E=mc2 ?? cycles life maybe go to x100 if you overcharge more than 4,2V

I will not repeat charging more than 4,2V

 

[docw009]

You know some people throw away batteries just because have a bad cell inside? imagine this, a 10P20S Samsung 30Q, 200cells, but just one is leaking voltage, leading to one S block array lose voltage over time lead to BMS earlier cut. this happened with one customer! he sold that battery 100eur to other person! than the person found the leak cell and replaced it with new 30Q and battery back to original ~30Ah capacity!! some people are crazy!

Would your company bother with trying to find that one cell and replace it? What's their limit on how low a bank can go? Is it 2.5V? Will they try to recover cells that gave gone down to 1 volt? I don't want to buy batteries from someone that does that. I would not buy batteries from a shop that would resell those cells that shot up to 4.6V either. You got to have standards, no LOL.

A hobbyist might try taking out a bank of ten parallel cells, and individually testing all of them to locate the bad one. Seems too expensive to pay a technician to do that. Samsung 30Q's have one level of reliability, but no name generic cells have a lower one. If you find one bad one in 200 generic cells, there's sure to be another one in another bank.

 

[Hillhater]

“…i got 20% extra..
..extra what ??..voltage that has no Ah capacity ?
..how much wasted energy to get to 4.6 v !

Testing discharging 6P 12Ah @ 4,6V give an output of +14,2Ah @ 10A dischrge
seems outputs 20% more capacity at danger voltge zone. E=mc2 ?? cycles life maybe go to x100 if you overcharge more than 4,2V

I will not repeat charging more than 4,2V

Unless you have a detailed Capacity Map for at least the discharge test,…then i will be inclined not to believe the +20% claim
All previous capacity tests have shown very little capacity (<1% ) above 4.2 v

 

[amberwolf]

I think you might want to study some astrophysics, or at least watch some youtube documentaries by people who did.

Bing bang says maybe universe beginning could similar to bomb exploding under water (see under water explosions high frame rate. expand sphere than collapse at center) , at explosion moment all water around spreads in a sphere shape, until max vacuum inside sphere. then it collapses to inside middle point, making extreme force after collapse at center point!
a destabilized system tend to return to original stable state..

Big bang initiated because very opposed particles charges where flying in universe, than collided! It's similar to a huge short circuit! releasing many matter around center and light (sphere shape spread). thats why universe keeps expanding. all stars are fragments from very a old explosion. but some time point it will reverse and all goes back to center! U are now at expanding time frame, but when it reverses to contract all stuff in universe will be sucked to center of big bang explosion (conspiracy)
just sayin..

 

[eMark]

Unless you have a detailed Capacity Map for at least the discharge test,…then i will be inclined not to believe the +20% claim
All previous capacity tests have shown very little capacity (<1% ) above 4.2 v

He's just putting forth a hypothetical 20% when he knows that a 20% increase in capacity range mileage is wishful thinking.

He should do a couple 100 yard urban time trials on his ebike. One at 4.50V and another at 4.20V. Doubt there'd be a difference of 1 second, if even that much. Any increase in speed/power from a 20% increase in voltage is so short-lived as to be trivial.

However, the Li-ion battery cycle life as well as an awesome ebike could be Short-Lived -

 

[john61ct]

Many regular posters here are best set on ignore, not just to avoid misinformation but just to avoid wasting your time engaging with them.

Doubly true when they start arguing with each other.

 

[batteryGOLD]

Hi there people! HAPPY NEW YEAR to all
I went into holidays to avoid this topic..

Just to make things clear I never charge any battery cell array above 4,2V limit, as described on cells datasheet. a rule is to follow datasheet specs.
Those batteries I shown were test subjects! yes, U get around +20% capacity if overcharged from 4,2 to 4,6V. buttt no one is crazy to do that in real world use! Batteries are danger and hazard devices, those could make injuries to self person or others and fires could damage house and surround elements! So always handle batteries careful under the limits and hooping nothing goes wrong..
(and don't charge any EV inside home, dont put into your room a ebike or any device charging while Ur sleeping, why? because some cells could release toxic gas if failure, soo Ure sleeping having good dreams while smoke in the air.. not good scenario..)

As a professional I recommend people to go +20% to 80% on any battery! and using the safety rule of use battery at average 50% SOC technique, keeping cells around center voltage point. battery longer life, and less dangerous (is different if u carry one barrel of gunpowder or if U transport half barrel of gunpowder..just sayn..)
but don't worry too much and keep tranquilo! after all WE are now at 2023! We are now at tha Future

and about Einstein text.. Those are conspiracies or did U believe those??
Anyway mind is free to think/process and to output opinions ( all users over web need to have ability to filtrate 50% of web info that read is not certified or real! )

About Surron burned. I know some cases similar that happened! most because users modified battery or build a bad design battery(at this type of vehicle the most important is the battery structure to handle many vibration x,y,z and shocks). Some crazy people just glue cells to make battery.. very wrong! I seen this at a samsung 30Q 20S10P 200cells glued and than go at a 10KW ebike! imagine what could happen..

The other problem with surron people is when changing controller and doin soo called BMS bypass!! full power output but no cells balace/ voltage monitor at S blocks.. most cases it will go fine, but imagine one block is debalanced! and U charge battery at 10A, and discharge +100A. imagine scenario, most blocks at 3,6V and other at 4,2V. bms will not prevent top cut voltage.. soo doin some math 3,6Vx16S + 4,2V = 62V , the charger is 72V and will keep chargin at 10A until 72V! there is a 10V difference offset. the crazy thing is those 10V/17=0,6V goes to top of high voltage cell. soo it should go on the way to 4,8V..
but imagine 10P cells hold 4,8V and U go on a drive, and pull 120A or up 200A at a super overcharged 10P lithium cells..
if this block catch fire all others will fire also maybe..just sayin

PS:long text
HAPPY 2023

 

[amberwolf]

Those batteries I shown were test subjects! yes, U get around +20% capacity if overcharged from 4,2 to 4,6V.

Could you demonstrate this with an instrumented test under load, showing the Wh charged into the cell and Wh discharged out of it first under normal charge conditions, then under overcharge conditions?

 

[batteryGOLD]

Those batteries I shown were test subjects! yes, U get around +20% capacity if overcharged from 4,2 to 4,6V.

Could you demonstrate this with an instrumented test under load, showing the Wh charged into the cell and Wh discharged out of it first under normal charge conditions, then under overcharge conditions?

Are you asking me to do dangerous thing again? I need to overcharge other battery and than do a testin discharge at load machine to show output values.. thats dangerous man!!

 

[amberwolf]

If you don't document the testing, then there is no basis for anyone to believe the "extra 20%" claim.

There are plenty of ways to make your testing not dangerous, by setting up proper safety procedures, conditions, and equipment. If you're not sure how you can ask Liveforphysics if he can provide pointers, since he does battery testing for a living.

 

[batteryGOLD]

If you don't document the testing, then there is no basis for anyone to believe the "extra 20%" claim.

There are plenty of ways to make your testing not dangerous, by setting up proper safety procedures, conditions, and equipment. If you're not sure how you can ask Liveforphysics if he can provide pointers, since he does battery testing for a living.

I work at dangerous environment EV officine/lithium lab that have all kind of electronics stuff and tools keepin danger surround.
I'm still alive at 90% energy. knock wood three times

I will consider your request/challenge , I could do at free time. Wait for proof results.
the boss will not know that I will do this test.. just for science values

 

[nicobie]

As a professional

That's interesting.

So you are saying that you work for a company that is in competition with LFP?