Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

[Samd]

+1 Hyena. I want to know what is meant by 'discovery'. Politely albeit.

Last month the local paper announced "action on powered bikes" - in the same town that Catherine King announced the new laws from. I have seen three stinkybikes pulled over - all whilst on my ebike. All tattooed and toothless riders.
The cops wouldn't look (actually 'hear'!) sideways at my ebike doing 45kph past. If you are a noisy bogan, in a flannelette, carrying a can of beer the cops will hammer you.

On the same day that the local paper ran the story on powered bikes I had a 'reserved but spirited' traffic light race against a kid in a commodore at the local lights - didn't see the blue highway patrol car sitting right behind me in the main st. Thought I was going to be booked, but he still carried on his merry way up our main drag.

I shrugged - the thought of being booked still doesn't worry me. $750, bring it on. Even my wife digs the math.

I have saved $1200 dollars in gym memberships in the last two years, I have avoided two service intervals on two cars, saving me around $1100 dollars, and around $650 in fuel for my 5000 kilometers I have commuted. A fine? Pffft. My conscience is clear.

 

[Samd]

You know, thinking about this a bit more, it costs me $650 a year here to register a vehicle and $100 for the roadworthy.
So being fined $750 for an unregistered vehicle is just like paying rego anyway without the hassle and inconvenience of making your bike roadworthy. And you only have to do it if you're unlucky.

I'm onboard.

Some of the Melbourne group riders might remember Alan with his yellow SLA powered recumbent. He got booked awhile back in Melton for overtaking a fire engine at 70kph. $704 ticket. He bought the bike from a lawyer, who advised him to have it heard in court. Police wrote to him a little later to say the charge would be dropped. Here's the thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45581#p665094

 

[boostjuice]

I believe there is an unwise level of reassurance/self-assurance propogated both in this thread and the 'Aussie 200W limit thread' regarding the legal safety/risk mitigation of 'flying under the radar' by simply not acting like a tool around cops. Yes I think this is an important strategy, and I adopt it myself, but simply following it does not help me sleep that easily at night given the other risks that are out of our control whilst riding our eBikes with a reasonable/practicable power level that is deemed 'unsafe' by the establishment.

In a nutshell, we need to plan for the worst case scenario that could get our arses in trouble with the law, and plan around that. News Flash, It's not the fear of a cop demanding to confiscate our suspected illegal power limit exceeding eBikes and their ability to test-it-on-the-spot with a portable dyno. It's the result of the greater awareness of eBike law amongst the police force an how that helps direct their investigation into something more serious than just being seen doing unnaturally fast pace on a near silent bicycle.

that is;
The very plausable scenario of our illegal (>200W/ >250W PAS) eBike being involved in an accident with another cyclist or a pedestrian causing ambulance worthy injury to the other or both parties. The inevitable police/court investigation resultant from this will no doubt seek to ascertain the legality of the bicycle's power source if it's noted to be electric. If deemed illegal at the time of the incident - conciveable at the very least through the testament of the injured party that the eBiker was travelling at speeds beyond the capability of a legal powered eBike - then the eBiker could concievably be deemed as criminally liable as if they were riding an unregistered trail-bike on a footpath blantantly flaunting the law. Don't underestimate how hard the courts can come down on pioneer offenders like in this sort of situation when a lack of case law precendent exists so far (eBikes are a fairly new to the transportation vehicle scene).

Based on my personal eBiking experience, I believe the predominant and considerable risk of a serious 'accident' occuring is through collision with another person and the criminal Police/Court outcome seriously worries me. My share of 'close-shaves' predominantly involves downright careless/inattentive/oblivious walkers, joggers and other cyclists that often unpredictably swerve over both lanes of bike paths as I approach, or they move into the wrong lane at the last second when I'm about to overtake them after giving them a bell warning of my approach. I often notice that recently arrived foreigners who likely come from countries that drive on the opposite side of the road (eg. predominantly RHD South-East Asian countries, of which there is a large percentage of in my city due to the internationally esteemed University) are more likely to adopt their familiar but incorrect home-nation road rules when finding themselved in these mildly stressful situations that require fast thinking on their behalf.

My point is, as soon as someone other than the rider themself is injured by an eBike, whether it was wholey or partly their fault - or even just a 'bad luck accident', the $#!T hits the fan for the eBiker as the law is more than likely to come down hard on anyone who may have made the resultant outcome worse through any form of illegality.

Sure as the sun rises tomorrow, if there is Grievous Bodily Harm involved police will use forensics officers if they must to investigate the eBike involved for power output potential, any hidden switches or ability to temporarily govern this power output or CA stats etc.

For me at least, the Moral of all this is that should you be unfortunate enough to find yourself in this type of situation;

a) Pray that you as the rider is not so injured (or knocked out) that you can't at the very least delete current Cycle Analyst data and switch a button to instantly limit the power to the legal limit without the injured party or onlookers noticing you do so. (although this could potentially backfire in court if it is found that an attempt to hide evidence took place)

b) Preferrably have yourself or someone you know retrieve the bike from the scene and hide it from sight before Emergency Services arrive so that by chance that the fact that it was electric powered might be ommited from the investigation if the injured party doesn't raise that point during questioning.

c) Maintain that you were travelling at a safe and reasonable speed as you would be capable of on a fast road bike If it is argued by the plaintiff that your excessive speed (due to the illegal power amount on tap) contributed to the severity of the outcome.

 

[Rodney64]

Yeah no need to get nasty, Chris wasn't being an arse. I am however curious to know the source of your info Chris.
You said "you discovered" police are targetting ebikes, who'd you hear this from ? Your wording suggests it wasn't you who was pulled over. Was it a friend or someone you know ? Or did you overhear some yobbo on a petrol bike down at the pub talking about how the cops were targeting bikes ? I suspect it may be something more like the latter...

Sorry Chris, but yes I'm curious where you got the info. Might try going to the licensing department here in Perth and see if I can get the Phasor registered. Anyone tried with a stealth. I don't think the issue is being caught but when an incident occurs and police are involved then the are obliged to press charges. That's fair enough.

On another subject, last night here in Perth a 15 year old boy was killed an a petrol bike and not wearing a helmet. Very sorry to hear and also for the family.

 

[Sunder]

You're lying brah. What state you in NSW?

My first reaction due to the ambiguous nature of his first post and low post count was "Is he just shit stirring?" Especially, when he didn't answer my first question "Where abouts are you".

But, look, it's a logical time for police to have a bit of an awareness campaign, and scare a few people, what with the new laws coming out. I do know that police have the right to direct a suspected defective vehicle for inspection by a third party - they do this for modified cars all the time. The law supports their right to do this.

Even if it turns out to be a "My mate overheard a bloke in a pub, who overheard his aunt talk to his cousin who's a police officer". type event, it's still worth being aware that there are risks of being caught with something overpowered.

 

[Samd]

Oh you can pray that you're not injured in whatever your chosen superstition involves. Magic, wicca, whatever.
But I'll be fitting large brakes and treating every potential collision opportunity with all due calculations of a healthy misanthropist. And choosing my routes/acceleration to suit.

 

[remf]

Might try going to the licensing department here in Perth and see if I can get the Phasor registered. Anyone tried with a stealth.

I think that would be futile unfortunately. Under current legislation, the vehicle or bike needs to comply with the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989. It would need to conform to Australian Design Standards in order to receive the necessary compliance plate. That would be difficult but maybe not entirely impossible. The least expensive way would be to electrify something that already has a compliance plate, something without pedals unless there's ever been an e-bike with a compliance plate. I doubt that.

 

[full-throttle]

Very nice writeup boost

a) Pray that you as the rider is not so injured (or knocked out) that you can't at the very least delete current Cycle Analyst data and switch a button to instantly limit the power to the legal limit without the injured party or onlookers noticing you do so.

Not having a CA is also an option, especially if you are using the same route every day. I took mine off after a month or so for instance.

 

[liveforphysics]

Magnetic reed switch in handle bar. Magnet glued into glove (or ring if you can wear those).

There are many options to make it more difficult for evil-doing fools to punish you for doing the right thing.

 

[t3sla]

Yo H

If I get injured when we go out riding you have my permission hide the body and my bike.

 

[Hyena]

Rod, as remf said you've got bucklies of being able to register your bike. It needs a compliance plate and needs to meet the ADRs. You COULD technically get this done but it would cost a fortune. Like upwards of $10,000.
It's funny, the RTA/what ever your local govt body is says "anything over 200w must be registered" then you take it down to a registry office and they say "this is a push bike, it can't be registered!"

Maintain that you were travelling at a safe and reasonable speed as you would be capable of on a fast road bike If it is argued by the plaintiff that your excessive speed (due to the illegal power amount on tap) contributed to the severity of the outcome.

This is a good point and it goes along way to reinforce the 'ride sensibly' thing. Obviously the story is going to be different if you had an accident riding your 1500w ezee/mac/bmc/bafang on a bike path or if you're overtaking cars up the highway on a 10kw+ deathbike(tm). I dont know how the majority of people use their ebikes on the road, but I suspect it's primarily commuting rather than just hooning around. And really, you'd have to be riding like a bit of a spaz to really draw attention to yourself. I myself have no fear about injurying anyone else as I ride more responsibly around peds/kids/other bikes than lycras do. The only chance I've got of hurting someone is if they jump out onto the road from behind a parked car or something like that. Much more often than not it's us who's going to get cleaned up by a car though.

Speaking of which, I may or may not have built a 5kw kit for a bloke who proceeded to strap it onto a mountain bike and then ride it in traffic. He got collected by a young girl who pulled out of a side street without looking, messing her car up, writing off his bike but fortunately for him his injuries were minimal. The police came, looked over his bike and said "nah it's electric, that's not illegal " and rightly booked the girl, who was in the wrong.

Not having a CA is also an option, especially if you are using the same route every day.

"Sorry your honor, my speedo was broken". Yeah, that usually holds up in court :lol:

Yo H
If I get injured when we go out riding you have my permission hide the body and my bike.

haha. I have it covered man. My armour has a panel in the forearm that I can activate in the event that I'm compromised. It short circuits my lipo pack causing a small thermonuclear explosion that incinerates both me and the bike. It's for the best.

:lol:

 

[Rodney64]

Rod, as remf said you've got bucklies of being able to register your bike. It needs a compliance plate and needs to meet the ADRs. You COULD technically get this done but it would cost a fortune. Like upwards of $10,000.

Thought as much. Have stealth looked into getting a compliance plate for the bomber.



Just got back from a ride and keeping up with the traffic which for me is a lot safer.

 

[TheBeastie]

Yeah I believe a lot of these laws have to do with people on those dog cheap ebay bought bicycle petrol motors.
When I first started researching ebikes for my build I came across those bicycle petrol motors on ebay and for a "split second" felt almost stupid building a Ebike due to the price difference on a petrol motor.

But I know there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't understand the ebike vs petrol motor. They just probably looking at transport due to loosing their license and see a petrol bicycle motor thats dog cheap and would not for the life of them consider an ebiker to be anything other then the "stupidest person in the world" when they consider how much money they can save with a petrol motor and the slabs of beer they can buy with the money saved. And maybe even the noisey sound of the motor might attract a mate.

That said there isn't much we can do to stop it.. I am thinking that one somewhat "practical" solution to do would be to start a fund where we would pay to eastern European hacker gangs that would hack into petrol bicycle motor sellers on ebay etc and rob them blind of their funds and motor stock by causing them to ship all motors out to Africa with fake credit cards etc. Or maybe go around on stealth ebikes with a concealed machete and swiftly ride past bogan petrol bikers and slice their heads off and ride away into the darkness before their heads hit the ground.
So yeah not many options.

 

[remf]

Rod, as remf said you've got bucklies of being able to register your bike. It needs a compliance plate and needs to meet the ADRs. You COULD technically get this done but it would cost a fortune. Like upwards of $10,000.

Thought as much. Have stealth looked into getting a compliance plate for the bomber.



Just got back from a ride and keeping up with the traffic which for me is a lot safer.

Not sure but I think the technical obstacles would be many. A lot of extra components would be needed like indicators, brake lights, headlights, wheels, tires & more, all to ADR standard. Costly yes, a lot more than $10K I think not to mention all the testing & certification required. That would certainly increase the cost of the bikes so probably not a priority.

 

[dingoEsride]

There is no real registration category for an overpowered motorized bicycle, closest would be an offroad but that will not suit the commuters, heres a link I found on

registrationhttp://rtra.asn.au/Riding/bikesandregistration

makes me almost want to fix my old 10 speed with a little bafang motor up front for road riding,
almost

 

[_Chris_]

Yeah no need to get nasty, Chris wasn't being an arse. I am however curious to know the source of your info Chris.
You said "you discovered" police are targetting ebikes, who'd you hear this from ? Your wording suggests it wasn't you who was pulled over. Was it a friend or someone you know ? Or did you overhear some yobbo on a petrol bike down at the pub talking about how the cops were targeting bikes ? I suspect it may be something more like the latter...

Sorry Chris, but yes I'm curious where you got the info. Might try going to the licensing department here in Perth and see if I can get the Phasor registered. Anyone tried with a stealth. I don't think the issue is being caught but when an incident occurs and police are involved then the are obliged to press charges. That's fair enough.

On another subject, last night here in Perth a 15 year old boy was killed an a petrol bike and not wearing a helmet. Very sorry to hear and also for the family.

that is so bad. unfortunately the cops cant get those things off our roads fast enough. They are accidents waiting to happen.

To answer your question the local bike store owner told me infingement notices were getting handed out to suspicious power assisted bikes so I checked with the local police station to see if what i heard was true and the policeman said the same thing. I just thought I better tell you guys and bring it out for discussion. If It is missinformation I was told then not much harm done but if it is true and I think it might be then I thought it worth sharing.

The first time someone gets badly hurt on an illegal one, It will go on one of those current affair news shows and they will misrepresent it all to make the bike owner a villan even if he isnt to get higher ratings. Then it will really start..


I wasn't stirring with the thread I was serious.

 

[Hyena]

Thought as much. Have stealth looked into getting a compliance plate for the bomber

Yep, that's where I got that figure from! Not worth it. For that sort of money, if you're going to ride on the road you're better off just getting a zero x that's already street legal (and goes alot better)
The downside of course is it's more conspicuous on trails where you shouldn't be riding motos. Though the bomber isn't exactly subtle either!

A lot of extra components would be needed like indicators, brake lights, headlights, wheels, tires & more, all to ADR standard. Costly yes, a lot more than $10K I think not to mention all the testing & certification required. That would certainly increase the cost of the bikes so probably not a priority.

Yep. The extra parts in terms of actual cost are fairly trivial, it's the certification that costs $$$
Infact if you were going to do it you'd buy cheap chinese dirt bikes and convert those.

 

[Rodney64]

Thanks Chris for you answer.

Hyena I have thought about the Zero but my main reason is for fitness too and from work.

The other question if I did ride a bike to work which was legal where do you stand if you have an accident especially if you damage an expensive car and you are in the wrong and worse still someones injured and it your fault, no insurance.

 

[_Chris_]

Thanks Chris for you answer.

All good dude, I probably could have started the thread a different way but That wasn't he best thing I could think of at the time. Its all got me thinking.

 

[_Chris_]

makes me almost want to fix my old 10 speed with a little bafang motor up front for road riding,
almost

Lol you could go all out and get a nice 200w step through with a basket on the handlebars

I think it might be a good match for our new laws. I want my one with streamers and a pink basket.

 

[_Chris_]

whoops double post

 

[t3sla]

The guys at Ausbike saw me ride home on a cream pedelec step through.

I got some looks.

Getting on an off is nice and easy, but I'm not sold on step frame geometry with 700C.

Then again I like steel, might be the resonance dampening/rigidity

I ride a euro pedelec for distance touring, it allows me to go further than I otherwise would and get in some form of exercise.

You can knock regs all you like but the burst power on a pedelec up a hill is usually 500/800W which is acceptable, double that for hills is ideal if it's torque sensor based.

The 25Km/h cut out is not cool, 28/30 is the right amount for a decent cadence.

Since 10% (tollerence) of 25 is 2.5, 28Km is still compliant, ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyooooo

 

[_Chris_]

The guys at Ausbike saw me ride home on a cream pedelec step through.

I got some looks.

Getting on an off is nice and easy, but I'm not sold on step frame geometry with 700C.

Then again I like steel, might be the resonance dampening/rigidity

I ride a euro pedelec for distance touring, it allows me to go further than I otherwise would and get in some form of exercise.

You can knock regs all you like but the burst power on a pedelec up a hill is usually 500/800W which is acceptable, double that for hills is ideal if it's torque sensor based.

The 25Km/h cut out is not cool, 28/30 is the right amount for a decent cadence.

Since 10% (tollerence) of 25 is 2.5, 28Km is still compliant, ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyooooo

Lol they are probably ok. I was joking about it, its just not something I could ever see myself on because I like the convenience of a throttle. I have a nice road bike I use for fitness and I like having my eBike for laziness. I rode a pedlec a few days ago and found the need to constantly pedal to make the motor go unusual. I can see what you mean about fitness though you would have no choice but to pedal to get around.

 

[Samd]

Oh you can put a kilowatt thru that bike Chris and flick it over to a throttle based controller, it'll take off a lot faster than a 2kw frock. Seriously.

 

[_Chris_]

Oh you can put a kilowatt thru that bike Chris and flick it over to a throttle based controller, it'll take off a lot faster than a 2kw frock. Seriously.

Lol it might only last 10 min though until the smoke starts coming out of it.




OK just now I called up The guy that is doing the testing of illegal bikes to get this story straight and there is good news for us, i couldn't do that before because they weren't there to call. He sais he has only had to test 2 ebikes and the 200w one wouldn't even make the roller on the motorbike tester work. Its mostly the petrol bikes getting done and of the reasons behind it was because they were attracting attention to themselves by doing stupid illegal things like evading breathalyser station, riding without a helmet or looking suspicious anyway, speeding up a steep hill etc. Phew. He did have one e bike fail though. Relax guys back to normal with your innocent 200w ebikes...