Automatic Variable Rake (another crazy idea by Amberwolf)

amberwolf

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This is something I have pondered since building CrazyBike2, and experimenting with various frames during it's conception--a rake/trail setup that varies depending on the speed you are at, so that low-speed riding is not so difficult (especially on recumbents like mine where the normally-helpful pendulum effect is minimal), yet high-speed steering is not twitchy. A steering damper might help with that, I suppose, but I wonder if this might be better than that.


I know that in my experiments with CB2, a more vertical rake with less caster resulted in snappier steering but was harder to ride at faster speeds with my remote steering setup, as it was "twitchy". Less vertical rake, angled more toward the front, with more caster because of it, resulted in sloppier steering and difficult balancing at low speeds, but excellent high-speed stability. Basically I only tested the different rakes with either different size wheels in front and back, and by flipping the fork around, both of which changed the height of rear to front and thus the rake angle (and trail).


For a time I considered making a pivotable headtube that would automatically somehow pivot almost vertical for low speeds, as I came to a stop for instance, and then pivot forward again as I sped up. I did not do this because at that time I had no good way of making this strong and reliable, and had no real ideas for the mechanism itself. Since then, I've run across those folding Razor kickscooters, which have a pivoting headtube for folding them up. A design something like that would probably be strong enough for the average bike (perhaps even for a heavy one like mine).

The main issue I wonder about is if it would be strong enough to resist side-loads and twisting, which is easy if it's welded as a frame but harder if there is the slight sideways freedom of movement it might have as the pivot can rotate thru slots.


I am still not certain of the angle-changing mechanism itself, as it needs a pretty big force multiplier (via gearing, probably), but pondering now it could be operated by braking with some sort of relaxation delay built in, so that as I brake it slowly returns to upright, then when brakes are released it begins to relax outward again. Depending on the angles things are at I'd only need to pull it backward (upright) during braking itself, and gravity would put it back forward once released.

The catch with the latter is that any good bumps like potholes or speedbumps, etc, are likely to push it backwards into the upright position if it is not already there. Also, if braking is the only thing that pulls it upright, I couldn't ride really slowly with it, as Id' have to hold the brake and waste lots of power (and wear the brake pads) trying to keep it upright while still moving forward. So it would probably need some rake-specific control, that did not move at all unless I controlled it to do so, or one monitored by wheel speed and electronically or mechanically controlled by that.


I suspect that it is not worth even trying this, but I'd like some input from those that have built and tried different rakes and whatnot for lower-slung bikes, especially recumbents, or those that know about geometry, frames, suspension, etc.
 
Well, I don't fit into either catagory there, but I did go to tech school for motorcycles, auto mechanics, owned two diesel vans, and have a degree for computer service. So you can ignore me and I will not be offended. :D How about a threaded arrangement that screws up via spring loaded governor that is wind sensitive. Or one that you can adjust with a lever. a gated shifter style control would work there without being too vulnerable to wheel shock. Or even simpler would be air charged extendable fork shocks, with onboard reservoir, and a small pump to move the air back and forth. Using speed data from the CA the microprocessor operated rake control would self adjust, and control damping as well. Tie it into the rear shock and have active air ride that the auto makers would envy.
Brian L.
 
The first idea sounds workable, but I would probably have to essentially build a motorized linear actuator to do it, perhaps based on a car window motor mechanism.

The airride system is similar to what I intend to have on a future trike, though I don't know how far in the future that will be. Probably a long time from now.

Just having extendable fork legs won't quite do it I think, although I haven't thought about that one long enough to be sure (there's just something bugging me about the idea not being quite what I think I want, although I suspect it will do the same thing and my brain is just having trouble adjusting to the difference in implementation). It would almost certainly be more mechanically sound than actually pivoting the headtube around. :)
 
Yeah it's all in the angle of the headset tube versus the length change available, compounded by the offset of the axle on the end of the forks. If you look at a typical motorcycle, the axle is mounted in the center of the fork tube. If you look at the forks on a bike like the OCC runt in my thread, you see that the axle is actually mounted in front of the fork tube. This increases caster, or the stability aspect of the geometry. Shrink the forks inward enough to bring the axle to the rear of the diagonal line from the head tube to the standard projected contact patch of the tire, you reduce caster, thus quickening up the steering. Utilize a large enough coupling on the outer nonturning head tube with an actuator of some type, and you have adjustable caster. Use a gated lever with positive spring loading to keep in stationary during normal transit and it stays stable. Like building a small swing arm for the headtube. Valy might be a great help with the more technical aspects needed to make the design survivable. Or even better, just make the down tube, and or top tube telescopic with just a hinge or pivot bushing on the other tube, with a lever for control of the telescopic member. That would do it too. For the sake of stability, the headtube should be surrounded by a fork arrangement from both tubes. How's that?
Brian L.
 
Pivoting the headtube - centered on the headtube itself - will make some dramatic changes to your ride height (see left illustration) - which could cause a problem with pedal/ground clearance. However, if you move the pivot point outwards, your ride height would change very little. However, on the other side, your handlbars would be lowered using the offset pivot point (which could be a good thing - it would bring your body into a more streamlined position... :wink: )

Headtube pivot.jpg
 
In my first drawing on my prototype, I had a pivot on the bottom of the head tube with a ball screw/servo at the top, and the swing arm pivots and shock mount were mounted on rotating discs actuated by servos.

The idea was to use a speed input, rider position input, inclination, and terrain/bump sensing to control the servos. There are already smart shocks that could be integrated to augment the geometry shifts. The wheelbase would lengthen, bottom bracket would lower and fork rake would increase for smooth downhill. On bumpy, slow speed uphill, the wheelbase would shorten, rake would straighten up, bottom bracket would lift. Basically the bike would react to the terrain. The weight wouldn't be worth it on a regular bike but on one with assist, it could make things much faster.

It's too complicated to do on the prototype but is still floating around in my head. Maybe I'll implement it on the next one.
 
Those were the shocks I was referring to. With the tiny hydraulic solenoids that are becoming available from companies like Lee, it wouldn't be too hard to electronically control a few aspects of a shock. It would effectively alter the geometry as well but not with the range of motion and adaptive options of adjustable pivot locations and rake. Combining smart shocks with smart frames would make the bike respond to varying terrain, speeds, and inclines like the bike was an extension of the body. I think I'll have to try it at some point.
 
It sounds like maybe this particular idea might not be as crazy as I thought. :)

Regarding ride height if pivoting from the headtube, it wouldn't likely be a problem on something like CrazyBike2, as it is semi-recumbent and the pedals are kinda high already even with a 24" wheel at max shock compression. It might be that pedal strike on the ground would be possible in an extreme turn at full extension, but for the most part turns at speeds high enough for full extension wouldn't be happening. I'd expect that when slowing for turns the system would pull back some anyway.

Since the seat is essentially a chair, it would be possible to add a jacking screw to tilt it back as the front end lowers, to keep the same seating position. That might even make it slightly more aero, depending on the rest of the layout and if there is any fairing (partial or otherwise).

And since the handlebars are not directly attached to the fork, but it uses remote steering instead, then that wouldnt' be affected either. (although the seating tilt would have to be done carefully to avoid pulling the rider away from the handlebars and/or pushing the legs too close to the pedals)

A regular bike would almost certainly have a problem with the pedal height, unless something like Mdd0127's methods are used. Additionally the seat would now be tilted down/forward, which makes for more pressure on the wrists/hands, especially since the handlebars would then be farther back and down. Could make hitting a pothole much more dangerous with rider weight leveraged farther forward that way. :(


I like Mdd0127's idea for the whole-bike system, along with RallySTX's extensible forks or headtube, perhaps (I'm still pondering how these might be implemented with what I have). I don't think I can make anything like a whole-bike system, but I am likely to play around with at least the tilting-headtube design at some point. I'm not sure how I could move the pivot point forward as Michaelplogue suggested, though.
 
I can do the mechanical work on the whole bike system if you can tackle the electronic stuff. I know which sensors to use and everything but translating that into servo movements and shock settings is more than I have time for right now.

Even setting it up so it was only dependent on body position would be neat. Standing up would increase travel, leaning back would increase rake, etc. The bike and geometry would move with you effectively making you the computer. The environmental sensing would just optimize things.
 
These guys use essentially a four-link to change the frame. It's a bit dorky, but has potential.

[youtube]8H39NiWbeOw[/youtube]

An actuator could be added to covert from upright to recumbent, or somewhere in-between.
 
I have occasionally pondered this idea based on all the input above, but haven't had any time to experiment with it yet. I recently saw a post in another thread referring to BMW's Telelever system, which is essentially an anti-dive suspension for the front of a motorcycle, and did a bit of googling on it. It looks like that system could be adapted to do what I want, as well as helping with the braking dive.

I'd probably want to have something automated along the lines of mdd0127's post above, eventually, to change all the handling automatically for road conditions and speeds, etc. But for now, I may look into experimenting with the Telelever basics, once I have time (which might well be nearly another year, again, given how things uusally go).

Oh, and I never rmemebered to respond to TylerDurden: I realy like that bike idea; am tempted to build one (if I had time, I probably would, just to see how well it works for my purposes).
 
From my understanding of bike geometry only adjusting castor is all that's needed. Adjusting rake makes no difference.

some thoughts -

an eccentric cam -

Active castor.jpg

you would get some up and down movement as it moves through it's range which ain't so desirable, but cams like this are very strong/stable...

or a scissor type arrangement

Active castor 02.jpg

Gets the mechanism out of the head tube where there are large torque moments and keeps it small.

Random thoughts, feel free to shoot holes through em
D
 
Hmmm...that cam idea seems possible. Would have to move the disc brake calipers with it, too, assuming I have those by then.

I suppose it depends on how much change of what kind is needed.
 
i got no idea how much back and forth movment/rnge you would need. Anything more than about 2 inches i think the cam would be out.

Having the break cailper and mount move with it complicates things...

Might just be better off with a basic parallelogram for the forks -

Active castor 03.jpg

It's funny how we are changing the rake here, but it's not rake making the handling difference but the transferred change in castor...
 
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