Back in the Saddle, 'Bent Mid-drive project!!

[Rassy]

Hey LI, you may have covered this already but when you originally picked a GM motor you were planning on the 650W. Are you still thinking about trying the 650W? If you were doing it again would you go with the lighter slower motor or stick with the one you have?

I ask these questions because I always figured if I was to do another like mine I would use a little motor like a Bafang instead of the large diameter and relatively heavy 9C.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hey LI, you may have covered this already but when you originally picked a GM motor you were planning on the 650W. Are you still thinking about trying the 650W? If you were doing it again would you go with the lighter slower motor or stick with the one you have?

I ask these questions because I always figured if I was to do another like mine I would use a little motor like a Bafang instead of the large diameter and relatively heavy 9C.

Good question, and until I get the 650W and test it I won't have a proper answer, but on paper, it looks better than the 800W for casual use. For my design, and wanting to haul heavy loads on this cargo/touring bike, I'm thinking the 800W is better suited.

In a week or so, there should be a 650 Watt at the LBS (Classic Cycle in Oregon City) for testing on a demo bike, so I will have some numbers soon.

Also on order will be a NuVinci Dev kit, and soon a Lyen 12 FET with thumb throttle, and hopefully more to come!

I have a lady I just met that is very interested in a Vision R-40 recumbent set-up very similar to mine too, so I should have a chance to get some good numbers for you on those.

Out first demo bike is going to be a a Schwinn like this one:

We will be using an Amped Bikes LiPo tube battery also, hopefully it turns out to be as clean a build as we hope!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

95T Sprocket Welded!

Just need to get my chain and motor sprocket that will be done later this week!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Best Monday ever!

Got my chain in the mail and a call from the machinist!

Time to see how much punishment this Hitachi chain can take (ok not really, only using 1500W peak :wink: )

The local machinist gave me the name of another shop the next town over, about 15 miles away that could cut the keyway, as even the college machine shop lacked a metric key cutter, so for another $10 I got it done while I waited for about 5 minutes.

He made sure I wasn't going to put a ton of power to this one as the keyway leaves the wall of the sprocket hub pretty thin (about 1mm ) but I won't be putting too terribly much force on this build, but if it looks to be fatigue in any way, I will have a ring fit to the outside and welded, but I doubt that will be needed.

Now once I get dad's battery mounts finished, I will instal these. Might have to wait until tomorrow to do a proper test since I am going to harden the steel of my torque plate, and make a new one for the right side of the NuVinci, been putting that off.

I have a torque washer on the right side from NuVinci and it has held up very well, just like to have something tighter fitting, especially now that I will have a lot more torque with the motor in a better gearing range.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Ok, just a cautionary thing here, I'm not saying there was ever anything wrong with the sprocket I bought from Staton Inc, but perhaps this one had a bum weld that got missed. I wanted to show my neighbor the original sprocket and ask what he thought of how they welded it, and he noticed this hair-line crack!

If you look really close you can see the cracked weld at the 5 o'clock in the first pic, & 9 o'clock position on the second pic. It's truly hair-line, and I'm not sure what method of welding was used, but my neighbor used a drill to remove metal from both the adapter and the sprocket to make sure he got maximum penetration, and it would appear that the welds on the sprocket pictured were not as deep.

So, just take a look at your sprocket from time to time to be safe, at worst if this failed, I would have to pedal home, but that could still be rather annoying. :wink:

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well, I was thinking I really should replace that torque washer, and then I remembered why I haven't, it's working fine so far, and the derailleur as tensioner is part the of the reason I haven't, but I did farmer-john a quick and dirty hardening of the torque plate on the non-sprocket side.

I took out my grand father's oxy/acet torch out and fired it up, my uncle had been cutting metal the last time he borrowed it, so it had that nice large cutting torch tip on for my purposes, just right.

Yeah, yeah, I know you loose some carbon if you don't have a brick furnace, but I'm too lazy, not sure if I could find enough bricks to to it right, but I got it nice and cherry red, checked with the magnet, and quenched it in a tin can of Olive oil.

Man it boiled like crazy! I half expected it to flame, but it didn't and now the plate is "curing" in the oven.

Anyone know how long I need to leave it in the oven? Didn't see that part on the on-line instructions, last time I hardened steel the right way, it was 21 years ago at high school making a screw driver with a gas fired mini oven, and I think I quenched with water with a little oil on top, followed by sand.

Anyhow, it's been at 350 DEG in the over about 20 min now, so gonna check on it. 8)

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well, I have learned the real solution is to get better steel for the torque plate, but I did manage to get mine probably as hard as I can get it, on the surface at least, new torque plates will be a priority with some tool steel of some kind.

No time for pics, about to hit the shower, got everything together and ready to rock! No-load test was very interesting, low end 30 MPH, high 92, (down from 55 & 108 MPH) the #25 chain is definitely making more of a turbine sound, but only at the near 3000 RPM no-load speed.

Going to be able to do a decent test tonight on my way to class (Financial Peace, Dave Ramsey stuff, highly recommend it! ) so I promise to post some pics tonight! (probably 4 hours from now)

VERY VERY happy with how everything is just barely clearing, I will be adding a tensioner for the chain soon, for now just taking advantage of the new chain and it's being on the tight side letting me go with out one for now. :wink:

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Ok, got some pics!

First off, I made my first attempt in a LONG time to harden some steel, and so far the results are promising, I will spark test some of the metal tomorrow to determine if it's high carbon or not, but it seems to be doing the trick.

In the pic if you look really close, there are three pin punch marks, the one right is from my first attempt at hardening, pretty useless, second one was better, and the final one barely made a divot on the far left! Hopefully it's truly hardened this time, either way the black look to the metal from the heating then quenching in Olive oil gives it a nice look, and I bet a good protection from rust. It's much harder for a file to touch it or a hack saw blade too.

And here is a pic of the 95T buzz-saw!

This bad boy looks great in black, and it's really very quiet!

New gearing is great so far, tomorrow I hope to take it down & up the big hill to see how well it climbs.

Definitely more torque now with better gearing, and very well matched to the RPM of the motor so pedaling along even at 30 MPH is a breeze!

I might not qualify 100% legal now, I think it might go faster than 20 MPH under just it's own power.

Oh! almost forgot, here some pics to show why NuVinci recommends such a specific gear ratio. (most of this damage was done with just leg power :lol: )

Surprisingly the sprocket side which has a larger axle size, same as the typical E-Bike axle, hasn't been damaged or caused any damage even though it is just using a special torque washer that is much thinner than the 1/4 inch I am using for torque plates. Problem with a plate on that side is lack of space with the shifting cable housing right there.

Pics with new gearing & chain on the bike! 8)

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I decided the "sweet sounds" of the bushings grating on my ears from the last DIY roller was enough, and decided to fit the bearings from the skate wheel that I got the axle from, and oddly enough, putting the bearings side by side and using the bushings that go inside them, made almost an exact same width of the roller I made from a plastic caster wheel from the hardware store, and when drilling it out to 7/8 inch didn't work, I realized that any old bicycle grip in decent shape would work, and glued one on.

I made the groove with my dremmel and so far it looks great, going to test it out here in a few.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

THE JURY IS OUT!!!!

I just got home from a 11 mile trip, using only 3.4 AH's only 15 Wh/Mi. and I have a new record up-hill speed!

I hit 17 MPH going up a 7% grade!!! (moderate pedaling)

I am really amazed at how well this motor performs, and now that it is geared properly, I tried a no-pedal test at where it's a bout 5%, and although it complained some, it went up at 9 MPH almost 10 got a little warm, but did it just fine and immediately cooled down once I got on the flat and pedaled along.

So, even though it won't match the 12 MPH no pedaling that my 9 x 7 Amped motor would, at one third the Wh/Mi, I can live with pedaling, I like to pedal anyway. 8)

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Finally installed a kickstand, but the vertical tube I had to install to make it work looks ridiculous! :lol:

I'm too ashamed to show any pics yet!

 

[skaplan]

I have to say that 95t monster of yours came out looking really good, I hope the motor mount on the schwinn works as well.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I have to say that 95t monster of yours came out looking really good, I hope the motor mount on the schwinn works as well.

Thank you! I have to give credit on that to my machinist and welding friends, I'm kind of like the mad scientist that plans this stuff out, but they do most of the hard stuff (well, I have welded, and run a lathe, but they are experts, I've learned better to get an expert do it once right than try to become an expert in too many things )

I'm trying to find a picture of the KHS hybrid bike frame I just saw today at the LBS, it's PERFECT for mounting a motor, all inside the front triangle and even a compact Amped or HK LiPo set-up would fit there nicely, but I haven't seen one yet ... kind of aggravating ... :lol:

I also got to see & ride two models of Rans Crank Forward bikes, and MAN they have sooooo much room for motor like the ones we are using, it's screaming for a E-Bike build too!

More on that tomorrow, too tired to post pics yet. :wink:

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Finally have a solution I am happy with for chain tension, if I only had one chain ring up front, and horizontal drop-outs, there would be no need, however, I use a very wide ratio for my front chain rings, 22T - 48T, so I have been suffering with a typical derailleur on the back shoe-horned into the gap between the drop-out and NuVinci pulley system.

Look here for pics:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33690

In the future I will use off the shelf stuff to do the same thing (hopefully! :lol: ) and keep the custom one-off components to a minimum. 8)

 

[jmygann]

are you using a front derailer ?

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

are you using a front derailer ?

Yes, I have a triple chain ring crank up front.

 

[pdf]

subscribed

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

subscribed

Thank you!

I have hit another mile-stone, no mechanical breakdowns in nearly 800 miles. 8)

I have noticed that the drive chain is too hard on the custom made from hard plastic caster wheel tensioner roller, but I have switched back to a previous design with softer material that gives instead of resists too hard and is broken down.

The closest that I have come to a mechanical problem has been going through different initial motor chain tensioner designs, had a few that wouldn't keep the chain on very well, and I have had to adjust the spring tension here and there, but over-all, I have had not one single time where I was stranded, and any fixes took mere minutes.

I will most likely use a true sprocket in the "chain guide" style instead of a roller in the end, however, not sure what there is in #25 chain for this.

 

[amberwolf]

I will most likely use a true sprocket in the "chain guide" style instead of a roller in the end, however, not sure what there is in #25 chain for this.

Look around at old exercycle machinery. Many of them use #25 chain, and often use 110-144T sprockets at the pedal end and 11-maybe-20T at the load end if they're using a fan or something.

People toss old ones out every so often, and they can be found on Craigslist and Freecycle, too. I'm sure thrift stores have them, but unless you need a fair number of parts from one, they'd usually be too expensive.

I may even have a small one around here somewhere that's not gonna be used, but will take too long to find for your project, probably.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I will most likely use a true sprocket in the "chain guide" style instead of a roller in the end, however, not sure what there is in #25 chain for this.

Look around at old exercycle machinery. Many of them use #25 chain, and often use 110-144T sprockets at the pedal end and 11-maybe-20T at the load end if they're using a fan or something.

People toss old ones out every so often, and they can be found on Craigslist and Freecycle, too. I'm sure thrift stores have them, but unless you need a fair number of parts from one, they'd usually be too expensive.

I may even have a small one around here somewhere that's not gonna be used, but will take too long to find for your project, probably.

Thanks AW! Not sure why I didn't think of that, there is bound to be an exercise bike or two at the local "bins" goodwill store that I can scavenge parts off of, and it would be a great test of my bike trailer's weight capacity! 8)

 

[amberwolf]

Some pics I meant to post in the earlier post, but got distracted as Mdd0127 and Evoforce showed up for a ride and chat day.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=513939#p513939

Complete chainline


load-end sprocket and bearings, appears to include a sprag-clutch freewheel.


load-end opposite side, has a two-wire (reed?) speed sensor unit that can be easily removed and used on something else (ebike/etc.

.

 

[TopCat]

Hi Li-ghtcycle,

I have just finshed reading throught your whole thread -(this time). I had flicked through it a while back but now im on the lookout for a new motor for my chopper I read it through.

My Schwinn Spoiler has a similar laid back riding postition to your bike. Not great on the butt for peddeling

As I read through your thread I got more and more interested in the motor you bought. I have already burnt out 2 Unite motors due to not gearing them - a 36V 500W (not quite burnt out but close) and a new 3 week old 36V 1000W that smoked like crazy and stopped working while doing a bench test on Sunday

Id like to do about 30mph crusing speed, so im tossed up between the Golden 800W like yours...
(better built than the Unite motors I think?)

...or this

Mars ME0201013001 Brushless DC motor, 100 cont amps 24-48v DC.

Slightly Used (<10 hours) MARS ME0201013001 Brushless DC Motor.

NOTES:
This motors fan cover is missing.
The connector on the wire from the motor has been cut off
Slight score marks to the shaft.

Other than the above it is a happy running bargain! It was removed from an electric go-kart project hence the above issues.

Designed for long life. No brush maintenance. The motor is 90% efficient at voltages between 24 to 48 VDC. Continuous current of 100 amps at 48 VDC. This is a 3-phase, Y-connected Permanent Magnet Syncronous Motor with an axial air gap.
20 turns per phase Line to Line resistance of 0.013 ohms Motor weight of 22 pounds.

I think both motors weight in around the same, 20 or so pounds, which is the killer plus I think? a controller for the Mars would be more expensive. Also the Mars maybe slightly to big to fit in the gap in front of my rear wheel.
You mentioned during your post's that you have a Lyen controller for your motor but you never mentioned what size/type/price? Was it easy (for a dummy to program/setup).

Anyway, enough of my babbling. Congrats on a neat build :wink: Your Evgrin must be a wrap around by now

Regards
Tom

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hi Li-ghtcycle,

I have just finshed reading throught your whole thread -(this time). I had flicked through it a while back but now im on the lookout for a new motor for my chopper I read it through.

My Schwinn Spoiler has a similar laid back riding postition to your bike. Not great on the butt for peddeling

As I read through your thread I got more and more interested in the motor you bought. I have already burnt out 2 Unite motors due to not gearing them - a 36V 500W (not quite burnt out but close) and a new 3 week old 36V 1000W that smoked like crazy and stopped working while doing a bench test on Sunday

Id like to do about 30mph crusing speed, so im tossed up between the Golden 800W like yours...
(better built than the Unite motors I think?)

...or this

Mars ME0201013001 Brushless DC motor, 100 cont amps 24-48v DC.

Slightly Used (<10 hours) MARS ME0201013001 Brushless DC Motor.

NOTES:
This motors fan cover is missing.
The connector on the wire from the motor has been cut off
Slight score marks to the shaft.

Other than the above it is a happy running bargain! It was removed from an electric go-kart project hence the above issues.

Designed for long life. No brush maintenance. The motor is 90% efficient at voltages between 24 to 48 VDC. Continuous current of 100 amps at 48 VDC. This is a 3-phase, Y-connected Permanent Magnet Syncronous Motor with an axial air gap.
20 turns per phase Line to Line resistance of 0.013 ohms Motor weight of 22 pounds.

I think both motors weight in around the same, 20 or so pounds, which is the killer plus I think? a controller for the Mars would be more expensive. Also the Mars maybe slightly to big to fit in the gap in front of my rear wheel.
You mentioned during your post's that you have a Lyen controller for your motor but you never mentioned what size/type/price? Was it easy (for a dummy to program/setup).

Anyway, enough of my babbling. Congrats on a neat build :wink: Your Evgrin must be a wrap around by now

Regards
Tom

Heya Tom!

I'm VERY happy with the Golden Motor's performance so far but I haven't had a chance to run it at higher voltage than 12S (48V approx) on 25 - 50C Turnigy Nano Techs (I specify the battery since lower C-Rate packs would sag tons more) and hope in the near future to try it at 18S (72V) but time and money haven't allowed it yet.

I really like that Mars! What is the Kv on it? The Golden Motor is about 27 RPM per volt IIRC. That is one of the nice things about it since it will run pretty low RPM's for even standard voltages like 48V and not require too much reduction.

I am currently using a Lyen 18 Fet, and it runs ICE cold, even when the motor gets relatively hot, just warm enough to keep you from wanting to hold your hand there constantly after going up the big, long hill here.

It's quite nice when it's cold to warm your hands on it! :lol:

I have never seen it get hot enough to worry me too much or degrade the performance significantly, even on a 12% + grade, however, it will slow down to about 12 MPH at my current voltage & gearing on that steep of a hill, and doesn't like to climb all by itself over about 7 MPH on that same grade, however, I believe when I get it up to 72V and use a jack-shaft to get reasonable reduction, I think it will climb even better.

My next goal is to have a 72V 36 AH pack, but that's a pretty spendy battery, so it will have to wait until the summer or so unless business picks up significantly, I'm gonna have to keep using the 48V 18 AH pack I have now. Unfortunately my 4S packs are not doing as well as my 6S packs, looks like I will have to replace them soon (they take 4X as long to balance as the 6S packs! )

Let us know how that Mars works out for ya! How much are ya getting it for?

Looks like it should handle tons of power with out smoking.

 

[TopCat]

Let us know how that Mars works out for ya! How much are ya getting it for?

Looks like it should handle tons of power with out smoking.

Humm!!!
Im now not to sure about the Mars motor! I can get it for around £185 but as mentioned if has bits missing - fan cover/wire connector. I cant find any dimensions on it but I think it would be to big to fit in my bike from the looks of it? Also a used Kelly controller KBL72601B 24-72V 600 Amp BLDC Controller with Regen that the guy is selling would cost £300. Im not sure i'd like to take the chance that something wouldn't work, plus it would probably take me a year studying at collage or so to figure out how set it up

Im more of a fan of simple machanics (the simpiler the better) - buy a motor/chain/sprockets. Bolt then altogether, fire up the throttle and were off.

I may still go with the 800w Goldenmotor. Thats asumming it has enough power to propel my heavy bike along.
There were a few of use on the forums that were looking to get a BMC 1500 or 2000 watt motors from http://www.thesuperkids.com/15wabmcbrmos.html but they are sold out and are not replying to any members emails who have asked about there motors?

I'll keep browsing and see if anything else pops up.

Regards
Tom

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Let us know how that Mars works out for ya! How much are ya getting it for?

Looks like it should handle tons of power with out smoking.

Humm!!!
Im now not to sure about the Mars motor! I can get it for around £185 but as mentioned if has bits missing - fan cover/wire connector. I cant find any dimensions on it but I think it would be to big to fit in my bike from the looks of it? Also a used Kelly controller KBL72601B 24-72V 600 Amp BLDC Controller with Regen that the guy is selling would cost £300. Im not sure i'd like to take the chance that something wouldn't work, plus it would probably take me a year studying at collage or so to figure out how set it up

Im more of a fan of simple machanics (the simpiler the better) - buy a motor/chain/sprockets. Bolt then altogether, fire up the throttle and were off.

I may still go with the 800w Goldenmotor. Thats asumming it has enough power to propel my heavy bike along.
There were a few of use on the forums that were looking to get a BMC 1500 or 2000 watt motors from http://www.thesuperkids.com/15wabmcbrmos.html but they are sold out and are not replying to any members emails who have asked about there motors?

I'll keep browsing and see if anything else pops up.

Regards
Tom

Yikes!

I had no idea it would require that much to get it up and running, I wonder if you might also want to consider this motor from GM:

http://www.goldenmotor.com/

It's considerably more expensive, but if your needing to move a heavier load than the average, it might be well worth it.

At 24.2 lbs (11 Kg) it's not light, but not much heavier than the one I have. Just be sure to order the 500W motor since they always ship the 800W anyway, so you get it for the cheaper price!

And as always, go one motor size up from what you need (this one can be either water or fan cooled too! ) and you will usually be happiest, just realize you will most likely need a jack-shaft to get enough reduction to have an effective reduction to be able to climb hills too, unless you plan on just pouring amps through it and the efficiency be damned!

I have now ordered the 650W and the 500W, and it appears that they have been superceded by the 800W because that is all you end up getting shipped to ya. Not a bad thing really, just a good thing to know! :wink:

I ordered first directly from China though the website, and it took longer than it should to ship, but then the second one came in a couple weeks IIRC, and it's been a great motor for my application.

Depending on how much pedaling you are going to do, you might consider using the 800W motor at 72V if you're going to use it and do little pedaling, I pedal along with mine, but that is what I got it for.

I still plan on taking mine up to 72V eventually, but just not enough cash at the moment.