Banding together to raise bicyle-assisted speed limit.

[dogman dan]

Bike goes 15 mph, cars are going 45 mph. Car hits bike.

Bike goes 30 mph, cars are going 45 mph. Car hits bike.

Is there a difference? Really?

Bike goes 15 mph, and is going slow enough to swerve completely off the road into the ditch or whatever. Car never hits bike.

Bike goes 30 mph, swerves completely off the road into the ditch at 30 mph. Car never hits bike, but despite the helmet, head injury still kills biker.

Is there a difference? I think so. When on a narrow shoulder with cars going fast past me, I like to ride slow enough to BAIL if I have to. and survive the bailout. So I tend to ride 15 mph when on tour, and end up on poor routes.

keeping up with traffic still won't save you from that dunderhead that is texting. So you bet, getting the city to put up some safer routes, and build out the city with bike trails where it's still growing is of major importance. The safe route I have is the only reason I can commute on a bike.

 

[veloman]

Cars have a lot more time to react to the 30mph biker than the 15mph biker. In your example, they would have twice as much time to react. That is worth a lot, don't discount it.

It's also a lot easier for a car to slow to 30 than to 15.

 

[swbluto]

I think the major difference between "slower" and "faster" is combination of the above two posts. The risk of an accident is higher at slower bike speeds, but the severity of injury (Death is the severest injury) isn't nearly as great as it would be at 30 mph. I think most studies have found that 20 mph results in the greatest overall "safety" for cyclists.

 

[jag]

The thread raises a few issues that maybe could benefit from being distinguished, namely how to band together, what is safe and what should rules be. I think we all agree on that banding together eBikers will have more impact. The others may be more difficult to agree on.

So how does one band together? In issues that concern me I can obviously send a personal message/mail to the relevant person/authority (and do this a few times a year). We can post issues to ES and those willing send personal messages. This has happened a few times as I recall. However, would it be more beneficial if we made the group status more prominent? Instead of multiple personal mails, members could sign petitions (hopefully google docs would be ok nowdays in place of a physical signature page). Or a step further would be to give ES some representative power to lobby or consult with authorities. Has anyone thought of this already? Any other examples on Internet groups doing this already?

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Good point Jag, I don't have an answer, but maybe we could start by trying to get in touch with local ES members or others who are near each other to organize.

I live in Oregon City, but I know there are at least a couple other members in the Portland area, and bike shops near-by sell Ebikes, and there is in nearby EV shop that sells mostly E-Bikes, maybe we can start a grass roots lobby?

I imagine we can get some of the general EV crowd at large to weigh-in. I know that events like the Wayland Invitational (EV Drag Racing) at PIR in July.

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/events.php

This could be a great place at least for those of us in Oregon to spread the word and network.

I'm sure that these events get some press, and I'm sure once we have a good group of people together, we can do charity rides or something, I'm not versed in these sorta things, anyone have experience doing this sorta thing?

 

[dogman dan]

I still think a car whacks you you die. Doesn't matter if you are going nearly the speed of the car. I "feel" safer on a sketchy road when I can feel like diving into the ditch is something I can try if I must. Diving off at 30 mph won't be fun.

Btw, I HAVE been run off a road into a ditch when I was traveling 50 mph on a road bike. Not something I want to repeat. I'm not talking out of ideas here, but hard hard experience. I've been run off the road by cars many many many many times. Back in the cowyboy vs hippie days, it was deliberate and I had to learn to be ready for it.

Sorry if I am highjacking the discussion here, but personally I think guys that think keeping up with traffic on a bike is safe are dreaming, unless you really have a true motorcycle like John in CR for instance.

To be safe out there in traffic, keeping up is not enough. You have to have the power to outrun the idiot in the car. Like motorcycles do. So 30 or 40 or 45 isn't enough. By the time you are safe, you are a motorcycle.

Back on topic.

Get involved with the locals that pedal bikes. Most cities of any size have a group dedicated to improving bike lanes etc. Join in with their visibility rides and discuss with them how ebikes blend with regular bikes. Unless you are a guy wanting motorcycle speeds. Then they'll likely hate you. But if you can hide how fast you really are, you can still contribute to the cause.

 

[auraslip]

20 miles per hour is actually pretty fast. Especially on the shit wal-mart bike most plebeians will slap a ebike kit on.

Ya'll are smart people who know how to build and safely operate a 20mph+ bike, but high schoolers and hispanic immigrants aren't quite as aware of the risks.

I don't live in a fantasy world. I know that eventually the law will catch up to me. Politicians will respond to the public outcry, the police will start enforcing better the laws already in place, or I will build a bike that is unmistakeably a motorcycle.
I just hope inspection, registration, and insurance is cheap.

 

[John in CR]

I think it all depends on the nature of infrastructure, traffic, and it's speed that will determine what kind of ebike makes the most sense. eg In Texas and the southwest where things are further apart the roads are set up for cars only and much greater speeds, so to keep up except on residential streets you would need a motorcycle.

The other end of the spectrum would be a city like New Orleans, which other than the limited amount of elevated expressway speeds are much slower. Excluding a handful of older multi-lane main traffic arteries and the highway, the maximum speed of traffic would be 40mph. Also, the limited amount of land surrounded by water, makes all of the distances short. It would be a great city to have an ebike, but to get anywhere means hitting the streets and mixing with cars. Maybe a peak traffic times the cars go slow enough that you could get by safely on a 20mph ebike. A 30mph ebike could get by, but you really need to be able to get up to 30 quickly for mixing well with traffic. That means either a non-hub drive high power ebike geared to get to 30 quickly or a hub motor bike over-volted for an absolute top speed of 40-50mph depending on the winding. A bike like that can still be very much an e-bike and not a motorcycle.

Sure mine is closer to a motorcycle, but that's the way I built it, because it needs to carry 250lb me and 2 kids or as much cargo as I care to strap on, plus I have 30+ miles battery pack at 50wh/mi in typical riding. Of course a bike like mine should require a license, and I believe any vehicle mixing with traffic needs proper lights and indicators. Sorry but that goes for the low speed guys too, because you need to be able to properly signal your intentions to other vehicles. Multiple classifications makes sense, because outlawing bikes that I consider more useful and more likely to have mass appeal is going the wrong direction.

Something to keep in mind is kids on ebikes. That's where the 20mph limit is fine and maybe even too high. Yeah, we all like being unrestricted, but we have to take the general public into account.

John

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I agree with the safety info listed here, and I just wanted to add that my father while riding a regular pedal bike fell into a ditch and smashed the side of his face and was in the ICU for most of a week, and he was wearing a helmet!

I think that banding together with bicyclist in general is key, because if we don't have them on our side, they might be the ones that first call for our being banned from bike trails.

I think for any and all of us going fast on E-Bikes should seriously consider a full face MX or Down-Hill helmet. You will eat less bugs and rock sandwiches. I personally wouldn't object to some kind of pedaling sensor that limited me to 20ish with no pedaling and would only let me go full power while pedaling.

I would use this as a way to both improve battery range and after looking at the average bike being sold at the local Best Buy, I don't think we have too much to worry about the average joe buying one of those and getting themselves into trouble. :wink:

My main objection to limitations is that once batteries start to show their age, or with increased voltage sag with use of lights and such, that the true performance will be limited, I am shooting for 20MPH up even a 7%+ grade and the rest I can live with.

 

[nineball]

I've been thinking along the same lines as raising the limit to at least 30mph, as this is the common limit in cities, and local streets. E powered bikes (trikes) would be less of a hazard, would blend in better with traffic, (there is always a left turn problem), ya da ya ya da, we need to get with the times, and GREEN POWER Technology has surpassed the current laws.

 

[dogman dan]

I agree with most of the last few posts, especially John's comments about different locales being very different kinds of riding situations. Video of his locale really made me understand his other previous comments. Totally different from here in the wide open west US. In New Orleans I might be scared to death of riding without motorcycle like performance. Cars in gridlock are kinda ideal for bikes though, as you see in commute video from Washington DC. Slow em down that much and bikes are perfect again. It's a different situation from trying to keep up with cars in my town. Here you need the harley with no muffler so they notice you.

One thing I'd like to see locally is a uniform speed limit of 30 mph on all city streets, and an even slower 20 mph on the residential roads. Everybody just going way too fast through town now, and no cops in sight since by 6:30 AM they are busy all day with wreck investigations. Everybody knows it an drives 50 mph everywhere in town. No way I want to hop out into that with a 40 mph vehicle of any kind. Thank god for the bike path!

I could see a 25 mph top speed for street legal ebikes, but not more than that. Get a motorcycle to play with the cars in the street if they drive that fast. Find a safe route for your ebike if you can. Think of the long way as the fun cut.

 

[swbluto]

Everybody knows it an drives 50 mph everywhere in town. No way I want to hop out into that with a 40 mph vehicle of any kind. Thank god for the bike path!

Yeah, no kidding. I was driving around on a 30 mph street and the average speed of the drivers was 38 mph. No one was going slower than that. You go 8 over the speed limit on the highway and the cops are ALL over you.

It kind of makes me feel like riding at 30 mph on a 30 mph street would also be unsafe.

 

[veloman]

Here in TX, the speed limits are 55-60mph on roads with LOTS of driveways, businesses, turns, etc. What a joke. As a driver you have to turn onto the shoulder to make a right turn without disrupting traffic behind you. That means a cyclist like me has 60mph cars driving up directly behind me. 15 years ago in CT, the speed limit on freeways (built for 90mph) was 55mph. Now here in TX you get people driving 65-70mph (because many people assume a 10mph buffer) on roads where the speed limit should be 40mph.
Add in the fact that 80% of these roads here don't have an adequate shoulder for road users that aren't destroying the environment with a massive ICE.

I really hate this state sometimes.

In downtown Austin, it's better since it's a city, but if you have to go much outside of it, you're SOL.


It really bugs me that there is this huge environmental problem, (and traffic problem), that is completely solved by quality ebikes, yet because of the overly fast car traffic and poorly designed roads, it's unsafe. This society is so damn self centered it's ridiculous.

 

[swbluto]

Here in TX, the speed limits are 55-60mph on roads with LOTS of driveways, businesses, turns, etc. What a joke. As a driver you have to turn onto the shoulder to make a right turn without disrupting traffic behind you. That means a cyclist like me has 60mph cars driving up directly behind me. 15 years ago in CT, the speed limit on freeways (built for 90mph) was 55mph. Now here in TX you get people driving 65-70mph (because many people assume a 10mph buffer) on roads where the speed limit should be 40mph.
Add in the fact that 80% of these roads here don't have an adequate shoulder for road users that aren't destroying the environment with a massive ICE.

Texas is going to be one of the first states to cripple with oil/gasoline shortages. Its expanse, cowboy culture and "oily history" has set it up for extreme dependency and exclusionary infrastructure.

 

[veloman]

Texas is going to be one of the first states to cripple with oil/gasoline shortages. Its expanse, cowboy culture and "oily history" has set it up for extreme dependency and exclusionary infrastructure.

I can definitely see that.

But it's also the general mindset that 'normal' people, from everywhere in this country have. Short story: last night my gf's roommate considered driving her own car, following us to travel 8 miles away and back, when all 3 of us could easily fit in my gf's car. We did carpool, but it took a minute to decide. It's as if there is no cost to driving. I'm not even talking about gas costs. People just don't give a sheet about how much energy/gas/oil is used.

I mean, why not carpool in that situation? This why I would prefer to see gas rise above $5/gal. It's the only way the masses will conserve or think about switching to more efficient forms of transport.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I fully support the 20mph ebike limit. It is just right for a normal bicycle that acts like a bicycle. When you start pushing faster, you need to have moped or scooter-like visibility and safety features- Like brakes better than rim pads!!

Ebike/ bike
Moped/ Scooter
Motorcycle

Thems the three types of bikes there are, and when you start blurring the lines it can become a risky affair! I will be the first to admit that I have only built two ebikes, and the rest are in the moped and motorcycle category of power, speed, and stopping power.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep.

I just put my money where my mouth is, and took the 27 mph 2807 motor off my commuter ebike and put on a 20 mph 6x10 this very afternoon. At 20 mph, I can ride along enjoying the view of the sunrise over the majestic Organ mts, or watch thunderstorms build on the way home. At 27 mph, I'm just focused too much on not getting killed today. When I have a need for speed, I'll go to a safe empty parking lot and uncork my death race bike.

Just like Texas, the back highways of NM are hugely dangerous to ride. No shoulder, drivers drinking and texting while straddling either the center line or the stripe on the road edge at 65-75 mph. Not roads to ride daily.

 

[kent1956]

Safety first and arrive alive are two great philosophies when considering the speed to ride a bicycle at.

Yes, we all want to go fast, but is it really safe to ride a bicycle over a certain safe speed? Is your bike designed and built to hit a bump or pot hole riding at 30+ mph? What will the force of that bump do to your front fork, you wheel, etc.? These are some of my thoughts, outside the legal aspect, when I think of adding MORE POWER to my bicycle.

Having the power to ride hills easy is one thing, but having the power to ride at higher speeds on the normal road ways, I think needs serious consideration.

As to Florida, the vehicle laws makes an electric assisted bicycle with a maximum motor of 250W and max speed of 20MPH just a bicycle. No registration or license required.

An Ebike with a motor from 250w-750w is legally a moped and is required to be registered, have a license plate mounted on it and you must have a valid driver's license. Max allowed average speed is 30 mph. Allowances are made for coming down hill or bridges.

Personally I have no problems with these speed restrictions, for all the good reasons mentioned so far. I don't want some uncaring person running over pedestrians with a bike running at excessive speeds. If you want to race go to a race track where the obstacles are not people walking their dogs.

On the roads, do we really want to be mixed in with vehicles that are two tons and over in weight, with our couple hundreds of pounds of weight vehicles?

I was hit, while at a dead stop in the median of a four lane parkway on my moped/scooter. One month later the pain in my ankle has subsided to the point that I don't need my meds to walk. If I had been crossing the intersection and got broadsided by brain dead, texting driver, my speed would not matter one bit, it would have hurt bad! As it was my scooter was totaled. On my bike it would have been much worse, it would have been destroyed, caring me with it.

So no matter what the governments say, federal or local, it is up to each driver to be safe. Be alert, ride at a safe speed for the path, roads we are on. And arrive alive.

 

[John in CR]

Now you guys are drifting into another topic. My first hubmotored ebike went 30mph on a regular upright bike frame. The only time I felt safe on it was riding on the beach at low tide...wide expanse and dead smooth. In traffic it got up to speed to slowly, so I got passed enough to be uncomfortable. How you guys can ride getting passed by 100's of cars under the assumption that none of them will smack you from behind is beyond me. I've seen how those idiots drive for over 30 years and I simply don't trust them. I'd drive a car first, in the meantime I'll stick with my ebike that feels perfectly safe right up to 50mph. I've been up on the highway a few times and pushed past 60mph, but didn't enjoy it.

It wasn't just the passing cars, it's also the center of gravity so high on such a short wheelbase. It just doesn't feel safe at those speed because it simply isn't. The point is we need frames built specifically for our needs, which means lower and a longer wheelbase than a typical upright mountain bike. If it gets called a moped so be it. That's the kind of ebike I believe will be required to get more people out of their cars, something better than those gasser scooters.

China got away with the age of the ebike, but with the tremendous congestion it made sense, and was a transportation upgrade from a bike. The situation in the west is very different, so the idea that the same will work is pretty silly. No those 250-300lb pig electric scooters aren't the answer. An 80-120lb emoped is the answer, but it doesn't exist, unless you count that crazy priced German pedal first machine.

 

[REdiculous]

I ride in traffic almost exclusively, assisted or not. I love the "left turn problem" since it means I have to enter traffic...it's not any safer but it's bound to train the drivers eventually. Just stay alert and make eye contact w/ drivers when possible...they'll usually give you the nod and keep some distance.

I still think the limit should be 35mph....because it's a limit, not a recommended speed. later

 

[johnrobholmes]

I don't take my Ebike into traffic, it is for trails and backstreets. The mopeds get traffic flow use. Even if the only distinction between the two bikes is max speed, the distinction needs to be made.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Wow, I guess it all depends on where you ride and what the norms are. I used to just take a regular mountain bike to school and I avoided busy streets, cut through park trails and such, but when I didn't have a good alternative to a busy street, I took my place just like any other vehicle on the road, and never had a problem.

Where I rode, it seems that the more visible you are the better, and if I tried to stay in a narrow shoulder, that would encourage car drivers to pass too close, so unless I have really healthy shoulder or alternative path to busy road, I ride in the middle of the lane.

The only time I have ever had a close call with a car was when I wasn't taking the lane, just recently I relented and tried only take a 3rd of a lane in fairly busy country road, and was thanked by almost being clipped by an SUV driver that either wasn't watching or just being a jerk.

I will always take the bike paths and wide shoulders or even sidewalk when given the alternative especially on a busy road, but when I'm faced with a narrow 2 lane, I'm going to stand my ground and be seen and have a pissed off driver, better that than the one that forgets I'm in the shoulder when they reflexively dodge an obstacle in the road and run me over in the process.

The only really close call I have ever had on 2 wheels was with a 80cc scooter, I was crossing a bride with no traffic at all when a car comes along side me and takes my lane not even realizing I'm there. I ride like a nervous long tailed cat in a room of rocking chairs, so I was able to jam the breaks and avoid him.
By the mortified looks the passenger of the car gave me, they didn't see me at all until afterwords. That was when I decided to get a motorcycle that had good acceleration in place of the scooter, but I can see how this principal can be applied to E-Bikes too.

I don't recommend riding in traffic if it can be avoided, and maybe I have been lucky to live in areas with more courteous drivers, but I have never been one to hug narrow shoulders especially in high traffic areas.

I never go out of my way to tick off car drivers, but I think a mad driver is better than an complacent one.

Part of the problem with E-Bikes is they may simply react to the fact that your on a bike and move to pass you even when your going over the speed limit, because there perception is your going to slow them down, so they want to hurry up and pass you. Pretty funny to be going 28 in a 25 and have a guy pass you in a huff because your "slow"

 

[Evoforce]

Some good reasons for being able to go faster on the streets and bike LANES ( not to be confused with bike PATHS ) are: Traffic is less angry at you in the first place for "really slowing them down". Less vehicles actually pass you stop light to stop light. In fact, you could stay within the same group of vehicles for blocks which makes your visability to the group even better. Example: " Look there's that efin bike again, I can't believe it". With many bikes, throttle and pedal are as fast as cars off the start. Yea X'5s! When making a left hand turn at an intersection on a multi-lane street, you need all the speed you can while working yourself into traffic, in order to gain position in the left turn lane.( Also good mirrors too I might add! ) Conventional and lightweight bicycles are only restricted to posted vehicle speed limits, and they can ( and do ) go well over 20 mph. All Bikes can/could provide VIABLE TRANSPORTATION from point A to B in LESS TIME, LESS OR NO FUEL, LESS NOISE, LESS COST TO MAINTAIN AND OPERATE, NO INSURANCE, NO LICENSE, NO REGISTRATION. Let's work on our future embracing biking, for all of its' varying and unique purposes!

 

[dogman dan]

Ride fast in the bike "lane" and you will get right crossed because they can't believe you are going that fast. When I rode a 35 mph moped I wacked two cars that way. No way will you be able to stop in time on a gravel strewn bike lane.

Go slow enough to stop, or get out in the lane. No car EVER passes me that I don't check what he's doing and prepare to dive for my life. It's a pain for sure so I don't ride roads like that if i can help it. If I didn't have the good bike lane and better bike path for my commute I simply wouldn't be doing it. I'd just ride my 60mph scooter.

Once you all wack a few cars, and get whaked by a few cars like I have, you'll understand my attitude. 45 years of riding talking here. Quite a few of those whackings I speak of were on regular bicycles back when I could ride 30 mph for miles in my youth. Cars are out to get ya, and I've learned how to crash softer. Faster is not how you crash softer.

 

[Evoforce]

It's a good thing to value others life experiences and be able to validate those experiences for them. Others will face those situations in the exact same way or with slight variation. And then there are those that will never be able to relate, or ever experience the same processes, at all! The thing about risk, is that we all have our own personal threshold, and some are faced with, and actually have to deal with more than others. Enviromental situations play a big part of this also. Some people don't have all of the same options as others, and we should not overly narrow the scope of what is possible, based upon our own fears and bad experiences, and force them to overly dictate or regulate others. Life is a risk! Some choose more, others less. But much should still be left to choice. Imagine if the Wright Brothers, ( starting with bicycles ) didn't try to fly them because it was just too dangerous. Plethera of stories that make up history just like that one. We are all plenty overegulated now. Everyday, most of us break some written, or unwritten law, usually without malice. Granted we need laws to keep us safe and have some means of an orderly society but it is also risk that can give us that "gleam in the eye" and the "smile on our face" from that rush of adrenaline that only comes from when we "feel" as though we have risked something. I have personally been a human that has commanded everything from no wheels to wings. I will only allow myself to be labled ( whatever operator ) at the time of ( whatever transport ) that I have just enabled. No one should ever discount wisdom that can be gained through experience, but us older people know we took more risk when we were younger. Some of us could benefit and live fuller lives, by remembering why, and not become too set in our ways. Need to let these younger people enjoy life too. Stubbing your head is a part of that mix. Many old folgs with nothing better to do, try to control/regulate others, once realizing they really had no "real" control over much of their own lives. Change can be scary for all of us. But it is a fact, change is constant, those that refuse, get left behind. Those, that take no risk, have nothing to show for their lives. And... what I always say, ( risk or no risk)...It's better to be lucky than good! Think about that. :wink: