Banding together to raise bicyle-assisted speed limit.

[John in CR]

Many good points, and hopefully few of you have to ride with cars that are actually "out to get ya" like where dogman rides. While I like to think I ride like the cat in a room of rocking chairs, I'm thankful for the way motorists are here. In exchange for that courtesy I do my best to never inconvenience them by not slowing them down, at least up to the speed limit. Sure we have the right to own the lane, but in doing so, if you slow the traffic flow, don't expect to be treated any differently than they do the idiot car driver driving well below the speed limit for no reason. That's a big argument for higher speeds, but as JohnRob pointed out, it needs to be a different class of vehicle, one with at least a license and lighting required. It's just not reasonable to expect to have the same regulation free treatment of a bike, but have far greater performance. Sorry but drunk drivers don't deserve a convenient out, and let the kids learn to handle that performance off road first.

An even more important banding together for our cause is for re-educating drivers. Relatively slow 2 wheelers will no doubt become a significant part of traffic, so it needs to be addressed in drivers' ED classes. At least several related questions need to be added to licensing tests, along with public service announcements, and organized group rides. Everyone hates traffic congestion, so one way we can get drivers on board is selling them on the idea that getting people out of cars and onto bikes isn't just good for the world, but it can benefit them as a car driver too by reducing traffic, however, they must shed the attitude that cars own the streets. A bit of cooperation will benefit all.

I realize it's probably going to take the impact of massive and frequent Critical Mass type rides to drive the point home and wake people up. I believe the changes we want need to be well communicated and should be the central purpose of the rides, ie it's a push for change, not just a group exercise of our right to be on the road. Organizing with no purpose, while fun, won't accomplish much.

 

[Miles]

but as JohnRob pointed out, it needs to be a different class of vehicle, one with at least a license and lighting required. It's just not reasonable to expect to have the same regulation free treatment of a bike, but have far greater performance. Sorry but drunk drivers don't deserve a convenient out, and let the kids learn to handle that performance off road first.

I'm certainly in agreement with this, John.

 

[dogman dan]

Hey I guess I got a wee bit preachy there didn't I? I love risk! Beieve me I do! But I just don't fool my self calling it safe when it isn't. I'm happiest when pissing my pants. That's why worked a lifetime on ladders, rock climbed, rode fast motorcycles, ski mountaineered, wind surfed, and pilot hot air balloons. I really am happiest when I die if I make a mistake. A great deal of my "fun" did NOT belong out in the street.

Are we talking about how fast a safe ebike out in the public should be? Or how fast we want to go to thrill ourselves? I do agree with you that the ebike should be able to go 25 mph. Above that on the street, it's a motorcycle.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Instead of trying to change the national 20mph law, I suggest that efforts should be made to develop safety standards for the higher speed (moped) bikes. This would include braking power, load maximums, wheel and tire specs, and proper light kits. I think the light kits are the most important part. We need at least a good headlight and brake set that would be a simple bolt on affair for a moped.

To give you an idea of where I am coming from, I currently have three running electric bikes and 18 various other bikes and motorbikes in my stable. One electric bike qualifies as a 20mph ebike (old trusty), and the other (le toy) as a moped in my state. The third is a mini bike that is for drunken party mayhem :lol:

The old trusty "ebike" is a 1hp 20mph bike that is on a bike similar to the quality of a current walmart bike, maybe a bit nicer in alignment and parts fitment. In NO way would I want to ride this thing much above 25mph, nor would I want people thinking it was legal to strap on 3hp and cruise at 30 or 35. Rim brakes won't take it, the wheels probably won't take it, and my lights are no where near good enough for even 25mph at night.

Le Toy "moped" will peak around 5000w (battery) with the current gearing, and accelerates much faster to 35mph than the 80cc kitted mopeds around town. This bike NEEDS a better light kit than the normal bicycle, and it has 8" disc brakes to stop it. It also has DOT rims and tires to help dampen the road imperfections near 40mph. In no way would I ever put this power on a normal cheap bicycle, department store wheels and brakes are just junk for the most part. In my state I am lucky enough that mopeds need a rear red marker light, 30mph speeds max, and 3bhp max. You couldn't buy such a vehicle without full blinkers and headlights to match the vehicle class- which is what our niche needs.

Sure, I am pushing the moped law just like most of the ebikes here push the ebike limit. I certainly understand that it is safer to ride at 35mph in the middle of the road on a 30mph street. But, that is why I don't ride in the street on my ebike, and that is why I have a few mopeds to ride when I do want to go the speed limit. IMO, we shouldn't push the ebike any further in power or speed. What we need is more electric mopeds that are built for the task and license-able in the states that require it for "50cc type" bikes.

 

[REdiculous]

I'd like to see the 20mph speed limit just go away, honestly. I don't see any reason to regulate both power and speed.

 

[evblazer]

Before coming to this board I thought TX had a pretty good rule.
"(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and
(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds."

That was before I saw all these more powerful then my maxiscooter electric motors strapped to walmart bikes. It doesn't say how much human power. You could ghost pedal at 60mph with some of those nano lithium batteries and a big honking motor and be legal? Probably a really bad idea and I'd be suprised if someone knew anything that they haven't tried to change that but if ebikes start coming out in numbers I think they will.

 

[Russell]

Before coming to this board I thought TX had a pretty good rule.
"(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and
(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds."

That was before I saw all these more powerful then my maxiscooter electric motors strapped to walmart bikes. It doesn't say how much human power. You could ghost pedal at 60mph with some of those nano lithium batteries and a big honking motor and be legal? Probably a really bad idea and I'd be suprised if someone knew anything that they haven't tried to change that but if ebikes start coming out in numbers I think they will.

You are misinterpreting rule "B". What it means is without pedaling the E-Bike should be incapable of exceeding 20 mph under motor power alone. Normally this rule also specifies the conditions such as flat ground with a certain weight rider. You can of course always pedal or use gravity to go faster, within posted limits of course.

BTW, today I hit 40.2 mph in a 35 zone (down hill of course) and while quite a rush I couldn't imagine going that speed on a routine basis. Many of the roads I travel have speed limits of 35-55 mph which means motor vehicles are moving along at 40-60 mph and there's no way I'd ride at those speeds on a converted bicycle of any type.

-R

 

[evblazer]

Before coming to this board I thought TX had a pretty good rule.
"(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and
(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds."

That was before I saw all these more powerful then my maxiscooter electric motors strapped to walmart bikes. It doesn't say how much human power. You could ghost pedal at 60mph with some of those nano lithium batteries and a big honking motor and be legal? Probably a really bad idea and I'd be suprised if someone knew anything that they haven't tried to change that but if ebikes start coming out in numbers I think they will.

You are misinterpreting rule "B". What it means is without pedaling the E-Bike should be incapable of exceeding 20 mph under motor power alone. Normally this rule also specifies the conditions such as flat ground with a certain weight rider. You can of course always pedal or use gravity to go faster, within posted limits of course.

BTW, today I hit 40.2 mph in a 35 zone and while quite a rush I couldn't imagine going that speed on a routine basis. Many of the roads I travel have speed limits of 35-55 mph which means motor vehicles are moving along at 40-60 mph and there's no way I'd ride at those speeds on a converted bicyle of any type.

-R

To get past rule B isn't all you need is a small torque sensor which measures you inputting 5 watts of energy and you can get full blast off as big a motor as you can strap on because there is human input? That is certainly not the intent of the law but if those 3 bullets is all there is I don't see why you couldn't do that. I'd think one could get by just with a pedal assist sensor so that the motor wouldn't run without pedaling and say see officer/judge it won't work unless I'm pedaling and providing human power.
I think it would be better if they were more specific but perhaps not as specific as
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without 1/3rd of the power coming from non-stored human power

Now only the bionx if non speed limited could do that as far as I know but I think it needs to be clear that there is some significant human input and not just some token amount.

 

[Russell]

I see what you're saying but I doubt you'd get away with it…that is if anyone was enforcing the rules. As it is now if you ride on the roadways you can likely get away with quite a bit as long as you don’t stand out too much. If you choose to ride a high-power E-bike capable of 30 mph+ there will likely come a day of reckoning one way or another. Call me conservative but I say “why bother” when you can step up from an E-bike to scooter, maxi-scooter or motorcycle and be safer riding in traffic than you would be on a high-power bicycle conversion. Sure you’ll need a license and insurance and you won’t be able to jump on bike paths but then bike paths are no place for high-powered E-bikes anyway.

-R

 

[swbluto]

... but then bike paths are no place for high-powered E-bikes anyway.

-R

But they're funner that way. Especially those "roller coaster hills". If, instead of going over the top at 8 mph, one did at 35 mph... oh, that'd be some delicious air. But a potential collision probably wouldn't be worth the risk.

 

[Evoforce]

I am all for good safty standards. But i would like to see the moped classification gone (at least in the sence of requireing license ,insurance and registration ). Bicycles should be built to a standard to handle rider weight and cargo up to speeds over 40 mph. Just make sure the standards of bicycles are kept up to snuff. Those of us who build our own bike(s) go through our own trial and error phase. We quickly learn what may not be adaquite or safe for our comfort level. ( THE PEOPLE ) of Endless-sphere have been and continue to be a shinning light for most of us. We all know why! Back to safety... As a Harley rider, I have to say that many of my buddies remove their turn signals for a cleaner look, and stick to using hand signals when operating their motorcycles. I personally would not do that for myself, but they have every right to do it. We also have no helmet law. Back to bicycles.... Every city has its own set of quirky rules. I have to travel the Phoenix Metro Area. That area incorporates a huge number of cities and very high density. You cannot tell where one stops and the next begins. Regular unassisteded bicycles can go ( any speed ) they want up to the posted speed limit. Assisted bicycles can only go 20 mph or less. Moped class can go 25 mph max but not in the bike LANE. I use my e-bike for transportation ( yes! no gas ).Here is where part of my beef is; in some cities in Arizona, some police are trying to collect large revenue through ticket writing. If you go just one mile per hour over 20 mph with your assisted bicycle, ( you could try to claim the assist was {not on} to the judge, Yea right! ) instead of writing you a speeding ticket, they can claim you are a different class of vehicle that will now be ticketed for no license, no insurance, no registration and confiscate your property. Minimum $2400 + and 30 days impound. This is no more than a grab for money and property by those few who don't care to have bicycles share the roads anyway. They are known to be bicycle unfriendlys and make it as difficult as possible. After all, "must be something wrong with us for not using an automobile". Many people in most states do not realize how most of us can have our licenses taken (right now ) for infractions we have committed. Don't believe me start reading your dui laws ( as one example ) and see how even over the counter or doctor prescribed anything can get you nailed if unlucky. Compassion for others ( poof! ) As long as it wasn't me getting caught...you did a bad thing...I point the finger at you cause it takes the heat off from me. Plus i'm perfect anyway! Enough of that! I hope we all get the point. We all make mistakes hence we all need forgiveness. Now on to... I really enjoy riding the canals, parks and Paths for leisure. I understand the leisure side of being sensitive to people and the environment. Reasonable speed around pedestrians and animals that share the same PATHS. Plus I can afford to go slower in this environment, even if I am needing to travel from A to B, simply because of no stop and go traffic or lights, etc. It really enriches my outlook and attitude when I can ride in these areas. But out in city streets you better be on your toes at any speed! This goes for any mode of transport. PEOPLE also need to embrace bicycles as transportation and quit being stuck in the leisureworld mentality. Being stuck in that mindset is not going to cut it for our future. Many humans that are disgusted that they have to share the road with you, or believe that you have no right to be there, has got to stop through education. Whether poor or rich this is the reality. Oil is on its way out. I also believe this form of pedal assisted transportation should be a right not a privilage. The minute you allow the government to issue permit, license, registration and insurance is when they take it away from you at their whim or manipulation. Like others have said in previous posts, we also need designated roadways for bicycles and velomobiles. We need to make our visions come true and make this form of transportation "feel" safe and unmolested as we go to and from our daily destinations.

 

[veloman]

Evoforce, lots of good stuff said there.

I really agree about having separate roads for bikes, such as in cities - like bike highways.

And also, I would love to see the mentality towards cyclists change. I too am sick of the "you have to be in a car for real transportation" mindset. Assisted bikes are extremely practical forms of transportation, and even more so if our infrastructure supported multiple forms of transportation.

 

[swbluto]

I really agree about having separate roads for bikes, such as in cities - like bike highways.

More dreaming. If bikes become significantly more popular, for whatever reason, then it might actually become reality. I have a feeling a majority would rather ride a train or bus before cycling across country (If they had to give up a personal vehicle, for some reason, though I don't think that's going to happen either; cars will evolve before transportation modes significantly change and some "extreme" models get 200 mpg already at highway speeds.), though, so I'm thinking it probably won't ever happen.

 

[evblazer]

EI really agree about having separate roads for bikes, such as in cities - like bike highways.

In the neighboring town they are building lots of bike trails mostly to nowhere. Their long term plan is to ban bicycles from public streets. So we get our nice seperate system they ban us from riding on theirs. Not only can't you get everywhere you need to go but if they cancel or cut the program you can't get anywhere.

Usually cities, at least those I've been to, are best at having parralel lower speed roads that get you where you need to go and then main roads you can stay off of that cars will flock to that are high speed high capacity. Lots of small towns have similar but where I live now in texas they have a highway connecting each neighborhood structure.

 

[veloman]

Just outside of Austin TX, you can't get anywhere unless you ride on 50+mph highways. And many suburban roads are either 4 auto high speed lanes, have gates or don't connect, so you can't take a "side route" often times.

If I take the non-highway roads from north austin to downtown, I end up spending 8-12 minutes just waiting at stop lights. If we had a N-S and E-W bike only paved route, which was direct with few stops, you could get into and out of the city so much faster and safer. (The Lance Armstrong Bikeway on the west side of the city is a good start). This would be for commuters, who would then spend a few miles usually normal streets to get home. They are trying to add 'rails with trails" next to CapMetro's rails, but that will only be for a few segments.


Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems far-fetched, and against current laws to ban bikes from non-limited access highways. Just because we might have a "bike highway" into and out of the city, that would not support, in any way, the oppositions argument for banning bikes from our neighborhood and main roads, which EVERYONE needs to use to travel to businesses and homes. A 'bike highway' would simply serve to allow fast, efficient, SAFE, sustainable, healthy cycle travel, either by pedal or electric power, at speeds under 25mph (flats). That's my vision. Too bad it's an incredibly difficult idea in a car-centric world.

I believe the areas just outside of Washington DC have an extension network of bike paths that allow bike commuters good routes into the Capitol.

In CT, there is an old railway that was converted to a multi-use path from Cheshire, south into the city of New Haven. This works fairly well, except that you can't safely go much above 15mph, or even 5mph sometimes due to all the families and kids, and other slow moving users, and there are a lot of stop signs at road intersections. I don't want to commute next to a 5 yr old learning how to ride a bike.... nor do I want to next to 60mph traffic.

It seems the most practical, efficient, sustainable form of transportation nearly always gets shafted and is hindered.

 

[veloman]

I really agree about having separate roads for bikes, such as in cities - like bike highways.

More dreaming. If bikes become significantly more popular, for whatever reason, then it might actually become reality. I have a feeling a majority would rather ride a train or bus before cycling across country (If they had to give up a personal vehicle, for some reason, though I don't think that's going to happen either; cars will evolve before transportation modes significantly change and some "extreme" models get 200 mpg already at highway speeds.), though, so I'm thinking it probably won't ever happen.

I'm not talking about highways connecting states or cities. I'm talking about "bike highways" that connect the suburbs to their cities. You'd only need about 20-30 miles of new paved roads to make it happen, for each city. Of course there is a problem of *no space left*.

 

[swbluto]

I'm not talking about highways connecting states or cities. I'm talking about "bike highways" that connect the suburbs to their cities. You'd only need about 20-30 miles of new paved roads to make it happen, for each city. Of course there is a problem of *no space left*.

Oh yes, that's definitely a good idea. My city has one of those to the "eastern suburbs" (But nothing equivalent to the north) and I used it to get to the "tourist lake city" that's about 35 miles away. I could definitely see how that could be practical for commuting if the weather was a bit better during the winter.

The main problem is that many people consider "regular cyclists" when evaluating those possibilities and a 2 hour commute time is pretty ludicrous for the 12-mph cyclist. Now, as higher speed cycles become more popular, I could see it becoming more practical in the public eye, but I have a feeling that the existing moped/motorcycle categories will confound such efforts. ("If you're as fast as a moped, just take the streets." )

 

[John in CR]

I really agree about having separate roads for bikes, such as in cities - like bike highways.

More dreaming. If bikes become significantly more popular, for whatever reason, then it might actually become reality. I have a feeling a majority would rather ride a train or bus before cycling across country (If they had to give up a personal vehicle, for some reason, though I don't think that's going to happen either; cars will evolve before transportation modes significantly change and some "extreme" models get 200 mpg already at highway speeds.), though, so I'm thinking it probably won't ever happen.

I'm not talking about highways connecting states or cities. I'm talking about "bike highways" that connect the suburbs to their cities. You'd only need about 20-30 miles of new paved roads to make it happen, for each city. Of course there is a problem of *no space left*.

You forgot to include that you want them covered, making e-bikes good for all weather. While they're at it that roof should just be a big solar panel, so we can charge from our ebike highway any time we stop.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[evblazer]

We need ac for them in texas for 10 months out of the year or at the very least 6

 

[veloman]

Ah yes, covered, paved, bike only roads, with solar panels on top. That would easily facilitate an overhead electrical transmission to our ebikes, such as trains use. You want 10kw and no voltage sag you say? :lol: :lol:

Even at 20mph, taking such an efficient route into the city, 10-15 miles away, would be just as fast, if not faster during the rush hour times.

If these roads were covered, you wouldnt have to worry about rain, snow, hot sun..... Think about how much of a 'destination' such facilities would be.

Research bike highways, or sky lanes. There's a couple ideas out there.... Yes I like dreaming....

 

[veloman]

We need ac for them in texas for 10 months out of the year or at the very least 6

That's why we have ebikes! I love taking mine out in the 110 degree heat index here in Austin. The only problem I have is my motor gets a bit hot on hills. Just have to take it easy on the throttle. My ebikes turns a disgusting, laborsome, sweatfest commute into a joyride. I still would like shade though. I may experiment with some sort of overhead shade.... as dorky as that may be, it'd keep me from baking at stop lights.

I went out yesterday on the ebike and it was mostly cloudy and mid 80s. I was almost cold..... :lol:

 

[evblazer]

That's why we have ebikes! I love taking mine out in the 110 degree heat index here in Austin. The only problem I have is my motor gets a bit hot on hills. Just have to take it easy on the throttle. My ebikes turns a disgusting, laborsome, sweatfest commute into a joyride. I still would like shade though. I may experiment with some sort of overhead shade.... as dorky as that may be, it'd keep me from baking at stop lights.

I went out yesterday on the ebike and it was mostly cloudy and mid 80s. I was almost cold..... :lol:

An ebike might be cooler than a bike but it isn't going to get someone out of their AC'd living room on wheels.
I actually have an operational ebike now but it just feels weird. Haven't used it for my commute yet still riding the 45 mile rt on my regular bike just not every day due to fatigue not heat.

 

[dogman dan]

Re evblazer.

In AZ, and Phoenix metro in particular, cops are deifinitely different than most of us have to deal with. I know you aren't exaggerating how they can be if they catch you on an overpowered moped in Phoenix. No offense, but I sure am glad to live in NM rather than AZ. Everything is just more laid back here, and cops will pretty much ignore you unless breaking a posted speed limit or running stop signs. To ride where you do ev, you need my 20 mph bike.

Re roads in Austin.

It's not much different here if you get outside city limits. You get to ride a 50 mph road with no shoulder and lots of commuters. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19420 So this happens from time to time. Near as I can tell from the news, the suv must have come around the corner or over a hill and there they were in the lane going slow. Hard to say if going 35 mph would have given the suv driver time to swerve. But for sure, a dialy commute on such a road would be pretty stupid on an ebike. You'd need a scooter able to keep up with 50 mph minimum. I have one, and for sure people get really ticked off if you only drive the speed limit on one, and don't let them drive 65 or 70 on the 50 mph road.

Re bike trails.

Our city is building bike trails in all the new neighborhoods. They are a sketchy hodge podge that doesn't really connect, and in many cases have curb cuts that will actually cause you to crash if you don't swerve around them at 5 mph. Some kind of ADA design of sidewalks that when combined with a bike trail is stupid. The trails are only on one side of 4 lane arterials, so if you are going with traffic they can be sorta ok, but if you ride against traffic on them, drivers will allways be looking the other way when they hit you. 8) I never see a biker use those trails, ever. Fortunately the economy is keeping traffic light on those streets for now. The route I take is better, but half of it is a wide shoulder on a freeway frontage road. Lots of room, but it gets the rocks and glass swept on a less than once a year interval. Cars with one wheel over the stripe do the cleaning . One morning in the dark with what I thought was an adequate light, I ran smack into a guy walking in the path wearing all black. I was going 27 mph. I stopped all riding in the dark of morning. Next time I hit the dumbshit, I'll only be going 20 mph, and mabye I'll even see him in time to swerve at 20 mph. The rest of the ride is on pretty nice bike trail that is safe, and has road crossings only every 3 miles or so. So nice, it's all cluttered with people waving their canes around, walking a dog on a 15' leash, or walking 4 abreast with baby strollers. It's a nice safe ride, but I can't do it at 27 mph. So my bike just got slowed down to 20.

But I still think 25 mph would be reasonable for a bike with motor to travel without licence, insurance , etc. To get under 20 mph lots of ebikes are just plain terribly underpowered. That is no solution. But the right winding motor and voltage can make a decent ebike that only goes 20 mph. My 20 mph bike is a 9c 6x10 motor on 48v. It climbs fine unlike a 250 watt, has about 1000 watts of power, yet tops out right around 21 mph in summer. But to get a 9x7 motor to be slower than 20 mph would mean cutting the voltage below 36. That would not be a good solution. Make the limit 25mph, and you can run it at a decent 36v and be legal.

 

[incontrol]

While I understand the motivation to raising the limits I like the freedom of the e-bike vs a scooter or motorcycle. I have a Scooter(250cc) and E-Bike and I would rather see increased tax incentives for e-bikes and a effort to include bike lanes in city planning then higher speed limits. 20 mph in a city or town is faster then most of the cars are going and since we can ride on sidewalks their needs to be compromise.

I would rather focus my efforts on great access and use then speed.