Bare Cables Bear Problems

Nehmo

10 kW
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
522
Location
Kansas City, Kansas, USA
On many bikes using cable activated brakes and shifters, the bare metal cable is exposed, not inside the housing jacket, between holders (guides) on the top horizontal tube of the frame. Why?

I believe the arrangement is for the aesthetics of market appeal. The bare sections add complexity and allow the introduction of dirt and moisture.
 
Yes, it is for less friction. I don't find them to be overly complex. I always brush my cables with Perma-Tex anti-seize and never have a problem with drag or friction. I know that may open a can of worms about whether putting lubricant on cables is a good idea or not, but the Perma-Tex stuff has always worked for me.
 
Less friction.

Less weight.

More rigidity makes for better cable feel.

Mounts the cables neatly.
 
A far bigger concern is the positioning of the cables.

On my Giant Boulder 500, which I have had since I was 14, I can't mount a double kickstand or even a single kickstand because the cabling design won't allow it. As long as the cabling is well-thought out and the brakes and gears are functional it shouldn't matter.
 
I thought it was to reduce the compression of the length of the housing made of plastic and wire, along with saving weight. I've never noticed a friction problem not easily solved in other ways. I certainly don't care about grams, but compression over the length affects me every day. Bike cable didn't work at all, and the cheap moto cable and brake handle is better, but not by a lot. It affects me, because my rear is a drum brake meant for a foot brake, but I run it all the way to the handlebar and a hand brake. I've just been too lazy to make fittings (bike size too small) and weld them on the bike to greatly reduce the total housing length, so it can't compress so much.
 
Bare cables reduce friction, and nothing more. My only issue with them is that it is difficult to mount a battery bag. On my last two bike frames this was a problem experienced at both ends: top tube and down tube. The issue was resolved by recycling some old beer-making equipment: Using an old raking cane and a short length of polyethylene tubing, I fabricated a rigid housing and secured it into place using black duct tape.

See Epic Battery Bag Story Part 7

Fox-Mounting1.jpg

P0 eBike with parts in place

Fox-Mounting2.jpg

Same view taped over. There is little movement and the cover protects the cable from getting pinched.

P1-Rising4.jpg

P1 eBike had the same problem on the down tube; this image displays the finished solution albeit inverted.

The covering works pretty dang well; my triangle bag is very securely synched-down in place and there is no cable restriction. The only problem with this design is maintenance when swapping out the original cable for a Teflon-lined cable – and it wasn’t that big of a deal; undo one end and thread the cable through, tape it back down… call it good. :wink:

~KF
 
Kingfish said:
... resolved by recycling some old beer-making equipment: Using an old raking cane ...
racking cane
I wasn't familiar with the term http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Racking_cane
"A racking cane is a plastic [or other material] tube that is bent on one end and is used in siphoning beer from one vessel to another, known as racking..."
Kingfish said:
Bare cables reduce friction, and nothing more.
How much friction would be saved by replacing a few inches (6in {15cm} on one of my bikes) of straight enclosed cable with exposed cable?
 
John in CR said:
I thought it was to reduce the compression of the length of the housing made of plastic and wire, along with saving weight. I've never noticed a friction problem not easily solved in other ways. I certainly don't care about grams, but compression over the length affects me every day. Bike cable didn't work at all, and the cheap moto cable and brake handle is better, but not by a lot. It affects me, because my rear is a drum brake meant for a foot brake, but I run it all the way to the handlebar and a hand brake. I've just been too lazy to make fittings (bike size too small) and weld them on the bike to greatly reduce the total housing length, so it can't compress so much.
What do you mean by "compression over the length"? The housing is fixed at both ends, so how can it compress?
And are you saying you replaced your bike cable with "moto cable"? Do you mean motorcycle control cable? Like http://www.dansmc.com/cables.htm But after reading that page, I'm now concerned about a related issue. Is graphite or Molybdenum disulfide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide a better cable lubricant than oil?
 
Oils are viscous and can get gummy in the cold.

As Kingfish illustrates, Ebikes benefit from jacketed cables because of all the other bits that regularly get attached where the lugs and bare cables are placed. Jacketed cable also allows running through the frame.
 
Regarding cable housing compression, there are at least two types of cable housing. One is made with a bunch of parallel straight thick steel strands, arranged in a tube, with the liner tube inside that and a jacket tube outside that. Those basically don't compress at all unless teh jacket is failing and not constraining the strands.

The other is made from a spiral of usually flat steel, non-overlapping, and the cheap ones at least often have some tiny gap along the spiral wind. So even if the liner or the jacket don't have a problem, and is all new, putting pressure on each end of the housing can compress the housing just a tiny bit on each spiral pass down the tube--that means the longer the cable housing is, the more compression length there will be in total. If it's long enough, then it's very noticeable especially in braking.

I prefer the stranded vs the spiral types for both brakes and shifters, but I have been told by various people that one type is for brakes and the other for shifters--I don't remember which is which, but I don't like the spiral type on either one because of the compression problem.


FWIW, I just about always stick a length of housing over the bare sections of cable on a frame, mostly so I can strap things over it without worry. Occasionally I run into a sticky shifter in teh rear because of it, since very fine dust and dirt gets down in there from our AZ desert air, and gums up the works. In situations like that, I take the entire cable off the bike's cable stays and either replace it with a single lenght of housing for the entire run, if I have one that long (very rare) or I more commonly use enough shorter capped lengths of housing butted together and then taped over the caps to prevent debris ingress, totalling up to the same length as the orignal run, and then just tie the housing to the bike frame in one of several possible ways.
 
I've used sections of thin slick plastic sheathing over the bare cable sections leaving a little slack in case it sticks to the cable. I did it only to prevent the frame getting fouled when I grab the bike. Works better than the little orings which can bunch up. I never thought about using full on cable housing or something rigid. That is pretty neat.

I think I read someplace the non-spiral housing is for the newer 9 and 10 speed shifters.. I guess so they can index precisely. I don't mind the spiral stuff though.
 
The motorcycle cable is nice, because the cable is thicker and stronger. The stuff I picked up still has that spiral crap though, and compresses more than I'd like trying to use a hand brake to work a moto size drum brake on my hubbies. I haven't thought about it much in the last year, since I have regen.
 
I want to add batteries along the top of my frame and have an exposed brake cable on one side.

So from this post it seems that they do not use cable housing here because of less friction on the cable run.

I was wondering if it would really matter if I added a brake cable housing for the cable run here? Would it be that much noticeable and hurt performance of braking? The cable is already sliding somewhat against my frame bag as the frame bag Velcro straps are looped around the frame right under the cable.

If I did add a cable housing and then looped the Velcro straps over the cable housing and mounted batteries against the cable housing, would this cause any issues for the brake cable run?
 
I used cable housing that was marketed as having Teflon inside; I can’t recall the exact brand, though a quick search on Amazon turned up these two to give you an idea. And they’re not too back for brake lines too.

SRAM 4mm Slickwire Road and Mountain Bike Shift Cable Kit
Aztec PTFE Coated Bike Gear Cable Inner Wire

The exposed cable on my bike is covered up by the racking cane method as previously explained. You might have to do something fancy like that – or maybe one continuous length of cable. We don’t have a picture of your situation, though I bet a good bike mechanic could advise you well.

Good hunting, KF
 
Exposed cables are on "weight weenie" bikes to save on grams and to show that the manufacturer and the user are doing every possible thing to be as light as possible, regardless of how little it may actually help. I believe their biggest benefit in the real world is a minor improvement in the feel, because of the lower friction. I'm sure that the lower friction is also a major reason the high-end bikes have them

The cheaper bikes have it (IMHO) because of two reasons: Its cheaper, and it's easier to assemble the bike with them. Plus, it doesn't hurt the sales to cheap-bike customers that: the braking cable system "looks like" the high performance systems seen on TV. Much the same way that a really good rim brake can work as good if not better than a really crappy low-grade front disc brake. The high school kids will choose the crappy disc brake because it looks totally bitchen just like the downhill bikes in "Bitchen Downhill Bike" magazine.

Of course I could be wrong, just a thought...
 
amberwolf said:
Regarding cable housing compression, there are at least two types of cable housing. One is made with a bunch of parallel straight thick steel strands, arranged in a tube, with the liner tube inside that and a jacket tube outside that. Those basically don't compress at all unless teh jacket is failing and not constraining the strands.
...
I prefer the stranded vs the spiral types for both brakes and shifters, but I have been told by various people that one type is for brakes and the other for shifters--I don't remember which is which, but I don't like the spiral type on either one because of the compression problem.
Yikes!

The spiral cable is brake cable. The stranded cable is shift cable and is entirely unsafe to use as brake cable. The only thing holding the strands together is the plastic outer wrapping which under heavy pressure, ie panic stop, can easily stretch or fail and let the cable housing disintegrate causing brake failure.

Modern spiral housing with teflon liners is the way to go for brakes. No need to spend a lot on fancy brand names, just get a bulk roll of something decent and cut the ends really square and neat with a dremel cutoff wheel.
 
EdwardNY said:
I want to add batteries along the top of my frame and have an exposed brake cable on one side.

So from this post it seems that they do not use cable housing here because of less friction on the cable run.

I was wondering if it would really matter if I added a brake cable housing for the cable run here? Would it be that much noticeable and hurt performance of braking? The cable is already sliding somewhat against my frame bag as the frame bag Velcro straps are looped around the frame right under the cable.

If I did add a cable housing and then looped the Velcro straps over the cable housing and mounted batteries against the cable housing, would this cause any issues for the brake cable run?

Just run full housing. This is totally fine. You can put your bag straps right over it, no problem. At the very worst you will have slightly more lever travel and effort than the bare cable run, but this is unlikely to be more than barely noticeable.
 
Kingfish said:
I used cable housing that was marketed as having Teflon inside; I can’t recall the exact brand, though a quick search on Amazon turned up these two to give you an idea. And they’re not too back for brake lines too.

SRAM 4mm Slickwire Road and Mountain Bike Shift Cable Kit
Aztec PTFE Coated Bike Gear Cable Inner Wire

Do not use those for brakes, they are shift cable. It is dangerous, someone will get hurt. Using shift cable for brakes is like charging lipo to 4.3 volts, it might not kill you on this particular day but it is in no way safe.

Get something like this brake cable set. Thirteen bucks, all the cable and housing needed for a complete bike, as good as it needs to be.
 
-dg said:
Kingfish said:
I used cable housing that was marketed as having Teflon inside; I can’t recall the exact brand, though a quick search on Amazon turned up these two to give you an idea. And they’re not too back for brake lines too.

SRAM 4mm Slickwire Road and Mountain Bike Shift Cable Kit
Aztec PTFE Coated Bike Gear Cable Inner Wire

Do not use those for brakes, they are shift cable. It is dangerous, someone will get hurt. Using shift cable for brakes is like charging lipo to 4.3 volts, it might not kill you on this particular day but it is in no way safe.

Get something like this brake cable set. Thirteen bucks, all the cable and housing needed for a complete bike, as good as it needs to be.
You took me too literal... The point was PTFE/Teflon coated cables. :wink:
Aztec Duracote PTFE Brake Cable

Enjoy, KF
 
Kingfish said:
You took me too literal... The point was PTFE/Teflon coated cables. :wink:
Aztec Duracote PTFE Brake Cable

The earlier links were to shift housing and cable, I just wanted to save someone a trip to the ER. Your current link is just to cable, it is the housing that is critical. Anyway, if you have teflon lined housing, which most modern housing is you don't need teflon coated cable too, one layer of teflon is plenty and the plain stainless cable is way cheaper.
 
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