Battery-in-Frame Ebikes?

[DDK319]

Hi All.

I'm in the market for an ebike. I have done a bunch of research on various kits, but I think I want to get into one of the types with the battery in the frame. There are a bunch of reasons, but the main reason is I don't want it to look like an ebike. This is both to stay inconspicuous and to keep the chance of theft down. Whatever I get will end up with Panniers so I can use it to go to the gym, right light errands, etc.

So, let's follow the sticky.

To get solid advice on parts to buy, you must provide the following info.
Desired max speed on level ground. 25MPH?
Desired max range at what cruising speed. 30 Miles at 20MPH?
Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert. 26" or 700C.
Brake type of motor wheel. I don't care
Rider weight. 190lbs
Terrain. Mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade. Mostly paved, some smooth trails or dirt roads.
Budget. $~2000. I'd rather buy a better quality bike/motor/battery and have a shorter range with the ability to buy an extra battery that can be swapped out down the line.


Any and all advice is greatly appreciated! I see so much info on kits, but very little on the type of bikes I'm thinking of.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Drunkskunk]

Just about any >500 watt kit can handle the speed you want. DD Hub, geared hub, crank drive, etc. That one is easy.
Max range is far to subjective to be a useful target unless we know a whole lot more about your route, your bike, your riding style, etc.
Minimum needed or desired range is easy to figure out. If you need a bike that can do at least 10 miles, that's easier to figure out. A bike that can do at least 10 miles might do 30 miles in some conditions.
26" wheels offer far more tire choices.
20% grade is more than most bikes can handle. It's more than most cars can handle. Is 20% grade a guess or do you know it's that steep? sites like mapmyride.com can give you the elevation and grade of the roads you ride.

"battery in the frame" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of people. Do you have an example so we can know what you mean by it?

 

[DDK319]

Hi Drunkskunk.

Good news that anything 500W+ should do the trick.

As for max range, it's hard to tell you too much about me, since even my ability varies as I slack or ride more. I currently own an older high end Ventana MTB and a medium-range Trek carbon road bike. I do pedal and cycle.

For range, let's say I want 20 miles at a minimum. More is always better. I'm willing to do a little pedaling, but not a lot, if I'm going to the gym for example. If I want to do a trek to the beach, a friends, etc. I will be willing to pedal more. Most of the bikes I'm looking at have bike-specific batteries (many seem to be Samsung) so I can buy another battery down the road to double range.

I don't have a bike for this yet, I plan to buy a 100% fully integrated setup. Purpose-built, so to speak.

I took the 20% from the "ask these questions" sticky. I have no idea. I'll be in the Newburyport, MA area. According to mapmyride, 8-10% grade seems more likely the max I'll encounter.

As for what I mean by "battery in frame", I mean the battery integrated into the frame downtube in the triangle. I don't want the battery out back, or visible in the triangle looking all out of place. I also don't want all the weight in the back of the bike, and I am 100% against FWD. It will be RWD or mid-drive, and I think mid-drive is out of my price range.

Here are a couple examples:

Prodeco: The Phantom X has my eye. https://www.prodecotech.com/2015-phantom-xr/ I kind of like the Phantom X RS also, but I'm not sure the upgrades justify the price increase. Knowing me, I'll end up changing a lot of that stuff anyway (forks, rims, tires, tubes, seat, seat post).

The Stromer bikes look sick, and I like how the battery doesn't stick out of the downtube at all. However, the price tag is a bit of a "whoa". http://www.stromerbike.com/en/us/build-your-bike

The Emotion Cross bike looks sick, and almost makes me want to drop the $1K over budget (going to 150% of what I intended to spend). http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EV705 I love it... until I see the 350W 36V motor. I just don't believe it's enough for me, panniers, and possible a few groceries. I can't stomach spending 3K on an underpowered bike, but if it had better power specs this would probably be my holy grail.

Those are just a few I've found that I like the look of from a semi-local shop. If I'm missing anything (that isn't $10K+) please let me know.

Thank you again for taking the time to ask me the right questions so I can give the right info for an informed decision. All help is greatly appreciated!

Dan

 

[motomech]

Wow, for that kind of money, I could build between 2 to 4 Ebikes by ordering the parts from China.
At any rate, I think your assumption that bike thieves will pass over an Ebike with a battery less conspicuous might be flawed.
Thieves are not stupid and I think, if anything, a $3K to $5K bike would be even more of a target.

 

[amberwolf]

You might check out the thread for Grindz145's Maxwell EPO bike.

 

[DDK319]

Motomech, thanks for your reply. I do understand your point. However, there is more to it than just original appearance. I lived in Boston for a while and kept a $3K bike in my possession. It was done by disguising it to look like a pig (stickers, tape, etc. to cover any expensive looking bits). I do plan to "camo" the bike a bit. I also want to be able to ride it in certain areas where anything motorized is prohibited. I won't use the throttle in these places, I'll pedal, but a clear looking e-bike would be a problem. I need discreet.

Amberwolf, that looks sweet! If the range was a little more and I could swap out the battery for a second leg, I'd be really considering it. However, I need more than 15 miles (while pedaling, what's that 7 miles if I don't?). Especially if I can't just take another battery out of the pannier bag and swap them when it dies. The one thing sweet about that is pedaling it home when it dies wouldn't be that bad. That's a large portion of the reason I'm going gear over DD, I'm sure I'll run this thing out of battery at some point and I want to be able to pedal home without fighting a motor.

Again, thanks for any and all input!

Dan

 

[recumpence]

One thing about the Prodeco bikes, bear in mind, their quoted 25-30 mile range is a bunch of BS with a 14.5ah 36 volt pack unless you are riding at 15mph and pedalling your brains out........

Other than that, they look half way decent. Just remember about truth in advertising. I would say the actual range without pedalling at 20 to 25mph would be more like 15 miles max with that battery.

Matt

 

[Gregor]

It seems like I have seen a few "Volton" brand bikes on Ebay that may have the batteries enclosed in a wider style downtube. Cheers

 

[DDK319]

Hi Matt,

This is exactly the type of feedback I seek! Thanks so much.
15 Mile range is just on the bottom end of what I can accept. I'd like to see more, of course. This is def. some good food for thought. Much appreciated. Have you ever ridden one? Know anyone with one? Knowledge is power, after all.

Gregor,

Thanks much! The Alation 500 actually looks pretty sweet! http://www.voltonbicycles.com/alation-500/ 500W @ 48V rather than the 36V is def. a bonus. Seems to have that same Samsung battery, so maybe I could still carry a spare in a pannier to increase range. Anyone have any experience with these?

The Alation Mid-Drive with the 500W 48V setup looks even better, but is out of stock and unavailable.

I think one of my main concerns here would be there isn't much real-world info on the web from users (that I've found, anyway) and I'd have to order online, so no local dealer support if it's a dud. Based just on numbers it looks better than anything I've considered so far!


Thanks,

Dan

 

[2old]

You might look at the Dillenger Hunter; 750w mid drive; 30 mph; range should be in your requirements. I've had excellent service from one of their kits.

 

[LewTwo]

20% grade is more than most bikes can handle. It's more than most cars can handle.

If I am reading the wikimedia chart correctly a 20% grade is equal to an agle of about 11 degrees.

In my long lost youth in Birmingham, Alabama I delivered papers via a 3 speed bicycle on hills with a much greater slope than that. There was one hill that I could not get up on my bicycle but the cars had no problem at all. Its been a long time (and I may be senile) but I would guess its slop was close to 45 degrees.

to the OP:
Have a look at this
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxwellmotorbikes/maxwell-ep0-ultralightweight-electric-bicycle

 

[striider]

You might check out the thread for Grindz145's Maxwell EPO bike.

You read my mind amberwolf....

DDK319 - in his video on Youtube, Troy specifically talks about how easily swappable and portable (and fly-able) the battery packs are, so yes, assuming availability of extra packs, you could swap them on the road easily to extend your range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsbmPD-xA

 

[dogman dan]

So why would your bike not get stolen, just because it looks like a normal bike? They steal normal bikes like mad. I love the look of the EPO, but if I was a thief, I'd grab it.

The most effective way to keep the bike from being stolen, is to make it look like something no fence will pay 2 bucks for.

 

[dogman dan]

Cars drove up 45 degrees, facepalm. Bulldozers struggle with 30 degrees. Stand on a 45 degree slope sometime, and tell me you feel safe without mountaineering ropes tying you off. But I know how you feel, the "monster hill" we rode up in my youth is mostly just 6%, with a bit of 8% at the last mile. In our youth, it seemed like a damn wall! There is very steep road to a local camping and hiking spot, and it's only 13%. Roads to ski areas tend to max out at 10%. Residential streets can be crazy steep though.

20 degrees plausible for rock crawler 4x4's, but the steepest paved highway I ever saw was 18% not degrees, %. The car handles that, but it's not liking it. I do know people on dirt roads that have steeper driveways though. 15 degree driveways are common, so are dirt mine roads. And some mine roads are 20 degrees, but when you are on them, it sure as hell looks like 45 degrees! Those mine roads that steep were built in the days of bringing out the ore by mule pack btw. A mine road built since 1950 would be less steep.

I have a better feel for this shit than most, because I mis spent my youth ski mountaineering. I was always hunting for 45 degree snow, but generally disappointed by only 35 to 40 degrees. Steeper than 45 degrees, snow simply won't stay on the slope, so you have to jump from snow pillow to snow pillow, where the snow stuck to ledges. 8)

 

[striider]

So why would your bike not get stolen, just because it looks like a normal bike? They steal normal bikes like mad. I love the look of the EPO, but if I was a thief, I'd grab it.

The most effective way to keep the bike from being stolen, is to make it look like something no fence will pay 2 bucks for.

Oh yeah, forgot he mentioned the theft thing. I agree wholeheartedly: If I were a thief, I would TOTALLY wahoo(steal) that EPO too. Supersexytime.

 

[DDK319]

You might look at the Dillenger Hunter; 750w mid drive; 30 mph; range should be in your requirements. I've had excellent service from one of their kits.

Another cool option that I'll look into a bit more. Thanks much!

to the OP:
Have a look at this
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxwellmotorbikes/maxwell-ep0-ultralightweight-electric-bicycle

Aw man... That's rad. I need to do some research on real-world range though. Oddly enough I'm wanting to talk myself into that rather than out of it.

So why would your bike not get stolen, just because it looks like a normal bike? They steal normal bikes like mad. I love the look of the EPO, but if I was a thief, I'd grab it.

The most effective way to keep the bike from being stolen, is to make it look like something no fence will pay 2 bucks for.

I was just thinking it may be less likely to get grabbed once uglied up with panniers, lights, fenders, stickers, etc. At the end of the day the stealth is far more important to me than theft anyway. Worst case on theft will be an insurance claim and a long walk or calling a friend. Stealth is a must.

Oh yeah, forgot he mentioned the theft thing. I agree wholeheartedly: If I were a thief, I would TOTALLY wahoo(steal) that EPO too. Supersexytime.

Absolutely. It'd be hard to hide the sexy of many of these.

 

[amberwolf]

to the OP:
Have a look at this
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxwellmotorbikes/maxwell-ep0-ultralightweight-electric-bicycle

Aw man... That's rad. I need to do some research on real-world range though. Oddly enough I'm wanting to talk myself into that rather than out of it.

:? I'm confused. That would be the same thing I already pointed out here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1069219#p1069219
that you didn't like because of it's range and in-frame battery, since you want to swap them out:

Amberwolf, that looks sweet! If the range was a little more and I could swap out the battery for a second leg, I'd be really considering it. However, I need more than 15 miles (while pedaling, what's that 7 miles if I don't?). Especially if I can't just take another battery out of the pannier bag and swap them when it dies.

 

[ohzee]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59632&p=932801&hilit=18650+in+frame#p932801

http://www.catalyst-components.com/

I have wondered how catalyst was doing with his ebike. It looked like a very interesting design I just never seen any reviews of it on here
and he's not made a post in a while , but is still on the board.

 

[DDK319]

to the OP:
Have a look at this
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxwellmotorbikes/maxwell-ep0-ultralightweight-electric-bicycle

Aw man... That's rad. I need to do some research on real-world range though. Oddly enough I'm wanting to talk myself into that rather than out of it.

:? I'm confused. That would be the same thing I already pointed out here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1069219#p1069219
that you didn't like because of it's range and in-frame battery, since you want to swap them out:

Amberwolf, that looks sweet! If the range was a little more and I could swap out the battery for a second leg, I'd be really considering it. However, I need more than 15 miles (while pedaling, what's that 7 miles if I don't?). Especially if I can't just take another battery out of the pannier bag and swap them when it dies.

I got the quoting all screwed up, my apologies. I meant to quote where striider quoted you, and included a video showing that the batteries could be swapped out fairly easily, and are not even very expensive. That makes it far more appealing to me. However, it doesn't look like those will be out anytime soon, so the search continues.


Another thing I'm thinking about is heading somewhere to check a few out in person. This place seems to stock more than anyone else in the area, could be worth a daytrip. www.ebikesofne.com

 

[Chalo]

20% grade is more than most bikes can handle. It's more than most cars can handle.

If I am reading the wikimedia chart correctly a 20% grade is equal to an agle of about 11 degrees.

In my long lost youth in Birmingham, Alabama I delivered papers via a 3 speed bicycle on hills with a much greater slope than that. There was one hill that I could not get up on my bicycle but the cars had no problem at all. Its been a long time (and I may be senile) but I would guess its slop was close to 45 degrees.

Not even close. The steepest paved streets you'll find anywhere in the world are not much over 30% (percent, not degrees). Alabama doesn't have any of those as far as I know. There are a few blocks in San Francisco and Los Angeles that approach the maximum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street

If you ride a bike on a 20% grade, it sure /feels/ like scaling a wall, though.

 

[LewTwo]

20% grade is more than most bikes can handle. It's more than most cars can handle.

If I am reading the wikimedia chart correctly a 20% grade is equal to an agle of about 11 degrees.

In my long lost youth in Birmingham, Alabama I delivered papers via a 3 speed bicycle on hills with a much greater slope than that. There was one hill that I could not get up on my bicycle but the cars had no problem at all. Its been a long time (and I may be senile) but I would guess its slop was close to 45 degrees.

Not even close. The steepest paved streets you'll find anywhere in the world are not much over 30% (percent, not degrees). Alabama doesn't have any of those as far as I know. There are a few blocks in San Francisco and Los Angeles that approach the maximum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street

If you ride a bike on a 20% grade, it sure /feels/ like scaling a wall, though.

I stand corrected. I went back to Birmingham via Google street view. Those hills are not as steep as I remember them but I do distinctly remember a couple that I avoided going up (going down was another matter).

 

[DDK319]

So, turns out my local dealers can't get the V5 bikes from Prodeco. They've been missing deadlines nonstop for months, and the closest thing I had to a dealer is cutting ties with them. So, I went to a slightly closer dealer to ride a few things.


So much for the 25MPH cruise. So much for the 2K budget. I just couldn't help it, I fell in love. It's like a real bike. I just happen to be Greg LeMond when I'm on it.

Expect a more thorough review, more questions, etc. to follow.

 

[ecycler]

Ah, that thing looks nice. Looking forward to hearing the review.
I was going to suggest one of these: http://www.catalyst-components.com/shop/catalyst-components-r1
For some reason every one that sees it thinks it is so badass looking they don't even realize it is electric.

 

[DDK319]

Ah, that thing looks nice. Looking forward to hearing the review.
I was going to suggest one of these: http://www.catalyst-components.com/shop/catalyst-components-r1
For some reason every one that sees it thinks it is so badass looking they don't even realize it is electric.

I am kind of glad you didn't post that until I bought one. It may have resulted in me taking out a loan, and I love what I got Review to follow.

 

[Chalo]

I was going to suggest one of these: http://www.catalyst-components.com/shop/catalyst-components-r1

Too bad the frame designer choose to ignore more than a hundred years of iteration in setting that frame's seat angle. I would have to wonder what other obvious, avoidable mistakes the manufacturer made along the way.