BatterySpace 37V/8AH Lipoly (pack cuts out at 20A sustained)

Reid Welch said:
Matt Gruber said:
EM is making sense.
talk to batteryspace
if they suck new and don't improve, get a refund.
That would be a sad end and setback for all concerned.

Oh, yes, I've written to them already---telling of the symptoms, not knowing then what Randy just stated.


:cry:
FMA/Kokam developed and sold RC packs that were 10Ah at 36 volts. 2P10S Packs until FMA went Chineese because of the price difference.Now I think no one offers these RC packs of this size except ThunderPower which has there own balancers and balancing chargers.
IMO there should be Voltage LEDs for each cell to monitor the worst cells voltages to see when any cells sag at high discharge rates and leave out the 2.8 volt cut out circuit compleatly for better unrestricted performance.Just another gage to watch but you know which cells are out of balance and you can top them off independently if needed.What I would really like to see is "eaisly replaceable cells" in a strong aluminum or plastic (ABS) case with individual LEDs per cell on the outside of the case to monitor cell voltages and temp..until they figure out a much better BMS.
 
I fully agree with those sentiments, Randy.
Cell monitors by which to -know- that the BMS is doing a reasonable job.
And tap points by which the user could plug in a test cable with ten position rotary switch (I'm so analog) and see by DVM that each cell is balanced before and after discharge.

The BatterySpace people have already responded to my new questions at their forum.

The chief guy, John, wants me to try their 1.7A charger.
He seems to feel that it's a possibility that the 41.8 V output of the 1A charger which they supplied, may not be quite high enough to make the PCM dole out the topping charges.

The 1.7V charger puts out a solid 43V he says.
So, they will send me that unit gratis. I will give it a go,
and we will see. One step at a time.

It's a shame Kokam is wielding their superior position to charge about a 100% premium for their superior product.

Oh well. The bike is on charge. I'll ride again later---going it easy on the battery, for what if the cells are not balanced? That's tough on the weak one.

Could also be a defective PCM?---failing to top off one or more cells, but over-topping others? I don't know how it works though, so I can only guess,
probably wrongly.

--
r.

edit: typo repair
 
Reid Welch said:
I fully agree with those sentiments, Randy.
Cell monitors by which to -know- that the BMS is doing a reasonable job.
And tap points by which the user could plug in a test cable with ten position rotary switch (I'm so analog) and see by DVM that each cell is balanced before and after discharge.

The BatterySpace people have already responded to my new questions at their forum.

The chief guy, John, wants me to try their 1.7A charger.
He seems to feel that it's a possibility that the 41.8 V output of the 1A charger which they supplied, may not be quite high enough to make the PCM dole out the topping charges.

The 1.7V charger puts out a solid 43V he says.
So, they will send me that unit gratis. I will give it a go,
and we will see. One step at a time.

It's a shame Kokam is wielding their superior position to charge about a 100% premium for their superior product.

Oh well. The bike is on charge. I'll ride again later---going it easy on the battery, for what if the cells are not balanced? That's tough on the weak one.

Could also be a defective PCM?---failing to top off one or more cells, but over-topping others? I don't know how it works though, so I can only guess,
probably wrongly.

--
r.
Well..., if you can get to the battery leads via the BMS plug checking the topped off voltages of each cell you will know the story.
The bad thing about heat shrink or sealed battery packaging.It would be nice to be able to replace the cells eaisly.Even if the BMS just bypassed the lower cells one at a time to Drain ballance the ones left seems like a better system instead of cutting out the whole pack.The cost must be a few pennies more to make.
Kokam WAS purchased by EaglePicher about a year and a half ago.The same company that supplied the batteries for Apolo 13 that got it back.
They know the value of Kokam technology in the US and abroad for military and arospace as well as for medical devices, industrial and automotive applications.We will be the last to afford them.
 
After reading all this.. i'm not surprised in the least at BS's claims and bluffs....

I will pay the premium for the Kokam's.. Now.. nothing says you won't get a dud with kokam's as well..but it's a whole lot less likely...

Personally.. i would not use that pack until the new charger arrives.. why do damage to the pack when you will likely end up having to keep it no matter what. :roll:

Keep the updates comming.. i read it all with interest.
 
i'd check the old charger hooked up. if it gets to 41.8v i don't see how the new 1 will cure anything.
perhaps it doesn't? HA HA
no way u get 10mi range on a 1/4 charge so i conclude bs is giving u bs.
 
here is an idea for anyone wanting to try li cheap, using reids bike as an example:
buy 2 12ah sla

(ebay)buy 1 dewalt a123 $80 new, but no warranty.
rewire the pack into 2p5s(switch back to charge w/bms) use sla charger

use a123 as a switched boost pack ~39v total(under load), boost ~4ah
lots of fun for half the trip, higher top speed, yet some slower speed lets tiny motor cool.

cheap fun!
 
I agree with Gruber -- don't see how a new charger will help either. Have you measured pack or cell temps just after it cuts out?
 
xyster said:
I agree with Gruber -- don't see how a new charger will help either. Have you measured pack or cell temps just after it cuts out?
I have deliberately not provoked more cut-outs.

It will handle a full speed run for say, 1 or 1.5m.
Pack exterior temperature gets just slightly warm to the touch
(after that first run, it was warm)
At run #2, when the thing first cut-out, I had gone about 1.5 miles at top speed. The pack was cold to the touch.

The battery voltage returns to whatever it was, upon a flip-off-on of the kill switch.

I do think now, after four cycles of the battery, that it's just one punk cell.
My charger is probably fine at 41.8V, but, Matt, I would remind you that the PCM is a bit of a mystery to me: it too may be hamstrung by the sub-42 input voltage. Its final job is to spend the last third of the charge time in a process of balancing each cell to an identical voltage. Perhaps it can't well-do that on its sub-42V feed.

And that would explain why Powerizer/John/chief tech at BS wanted me to have the better charger.

But, I do now think it is a punk cell. The initial charge voltage has dropped rapidly since run #1, when then it held 42, 41, 40, etc. for considerably longer time.

Now, it quickly leaves the 40's and under full load, I get 38 then quickly ((in a short distance of a mile or so)) a sag takes the pack voltage down to about 37 (at say 30A).

It's a bad cell. I don't think use of the pack this way will harm the other cells.

I will almost surely have to send this pack back for repairs, if not for a monetary refund.

I will implore to their Good Nature (aka: common sense), to send me another pack as a loaner or preferably as a keeper, in exchange for this new pack.

That is, the last thing that I want or deserve, is to be told that I must do without my bike for three or more weeks while they try to figure out what they did wrong ---by not load testing this pack before it was sent out---.

I asked them in advance: please be super-sure the pack will perform as advertised because I am reviewing it in public in real time.
And they said they had no way to bench test the pack (words to that effect).

So, like all small firms, they have their problems--perhaps, being pretty busy selling all sorts of batteries and stuff, they have a harder time keeping tabs on quality and product reliability.

One thing is certain: as the battery nips me in my butt (ouch, i feel a sting), it is also certain that if the battery is not given prompt obedience training (to heel, fetch, and never roll over dead), it will in the end bite BS in their end.

I like to joke. Whatever their failings in QC and such, I hold no ill-will for these folks at BS. We are all in this together. I would like to see more mutual support, as it is, between folks in this business.

I will cite one person we all know, cite him for setting an example of how to run a small business to the satisfaction of the public: That would be
Justin Elmore-Lemire.
Whoa! Justin tests his batteries and packs.

What a difference that makes.

Gaston: I would love to have the Kokam 37V 8Ah pack, but,
it's only available through Vectrix in France, and they have to charge what? What's the cost of that pack again? About double of the BS pack.

I can't cough that much green. Lately I only cough red---my money is like bloooood, ha.

Cheerful regards to all,

Reid
 
Most of the utility rides I'll use this bike for are under six miles round trip.
This is why I figured the 8Ah pack would be a suitable minimum, and it is, really, for the fair price cost

--and that I'm the guinea pig, not wanting to spring for their double pack,
not until the single pack proved(d) itself, which it has not done as yet.
But it's still heaps nicer than the former 3 12/12 bricks.

The bike at 36V becomes wonderfully responsive; a light-feeling vehicle,
nimbler for not having all that lead, and also, as a Currie, its strength and handling benefit by not having a relatively heavy motor within a wheel, though some hub motors are agreeably light and harmless to handling in the back wheel. It's just pros and cons.

I can enjoy the bike a great deal for the interim period before the fix,
even with the pack as it is.
I don't want to take off the pack, ship it across country, wait, wait wait.
That all will take weeks of down-time.
I don't want to rewire-in the lead pack at all, ever again.

Perhaps (for sure) BS should just send me their other pack---the one they say that they have run with fine results.
I'd just put my pack in that box and call UPS for the pickup.

I will call BS now and try to iron out a plan agreeable to both sides.

If not, I don't know: Part of me says just return this bad pack for a full refund.
:?
But, there is nothing else to buy in lipo without spending twice as much money,
which I will not do.
And I do want ten cells only of lipo for now,
not 40 or 60 or 80 cells of this-or-that
solder-strung together, or requiring multiple chargers, etc.
 
Ypedal said:
Reid Welch said:
It's a bad cell. I don't think use of the pack this way will harm the other cells.

If it erupts in flames.. it might.... :(
Yes, but that's not a great risk, I do not think.
As a normal rule, it is only by high current discharge that a dying cell can go thermal.
The cutting out proves that the 2.8V absolute minimum-allowed instantaneous voltage is
-recognized and acted upon by the BMS-

So,if the BMS finds any one cell going down precipitously, it cuts the circuit.
The pack rests for a minute, recovers the weak cell a bit or the weakling recovers on its own (I don't know), and then
the BMS turns the pack back on.
Something like this is happening.

The bad cell pretty clearly has high internal resistance.
Since the 8AH cell is prismatic (many stacked thin batteries in one pouch),
it may be in internal failure of intracellular nature.

This may not be a fire risk at all.
I tend to charge the bike out of doors.
Especially lately.

But worry? I should worry! I should, but I don't.

Thanks Gaston. PS: I like your new business page!
Best of results with that worthy venture into the joys
of keeping customers happy.

Give your dog a pat for me.
She got a good deal in her dad.
 
Reid said:
The cutting out proves that the 2.8V absolute minimum-allowed instantaneous voltage is
-recognized and acted upon by the BMS-

Reid, BS gives 3 different overdischarge cut-off voltage specs for your pack's BMS:

1) 2.3 volts:
http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/37vpcb.pdf

2) 2.5 volts:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3248&HS=1
"Keep 37V Li-Ion Battery pack from overdischarge (2.50V/cell)"

3) 28 volts for the entire pack:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3140
"Over-discharged below 28V"

It isn't even clear the BMS is cutting the pack off on a per-cell basis. Or that if it does, that the cut-off is working properly. Or that if it does, and the cut-off is working properly, the voltage cut-off isn't still too low for lithium cobalt cells. Hence, I'd not run it if I were you. Which it would appear I'm not. :D
 
Hello Xyster,

Let's ear in mind that this pack at least has a BMS,
and your very large S&P pack does not have cell monitoring or cell protection by cell-monitor circuit breakers. You can get by fine because there's so much capacity in your pack----what's the chance of a cell reversal in normal running? Not much.

Ten cells as ten workers;
Ten tin/silicon-sentient sentries
Watch the ten metal-salt soldiers;
for none must desert duty without detection.



The BS monitor unit is a brand new product. Look how new:

And it is a product Chinese-American BS specified and had made by people of their own language and culture, and so they have good communications, and can and do revise specifications. And that,
if you go to my thread at the BS forum, is what Powerizer/John spoke about.

Clearly, the cited PDF has not been updated--it says "2.5" or whatever,
but John says this PCM cuts out at 2.8V. I'll choose to believe his word;
it's his design after all.

BS's pages have many errors in numbers and wordings.
So do the pages I read from native English speakers.

The advantage here in dealing with BS, is that they are in touch with the factories in China. They want to sell products at competitive prices, not headaches for themselves and customers.
Nor do they sell Mystery Boxes of lipos, such as the very sweet but
whatever-is-inside it Point-One and other proprietary brands, Velectris pack pictured above included, of lipo packs vended by various folks.

Only BatterySpace and Kokam to my knowledge offer bike-specific lipo packs
and -document the cells- and in the case of BS, offer comprehensive specs on their protective mechanism.

I know relatively "all about" this BatterySpace product because that firm is relatively upfront with technical information.

Satisfaction?

The market is such that if they piss off too many people they lose more business.

This thread is public enough to cause a palpable result to their ebike lipo battery prospects if the product fails my review.

So it pays to make good on imperfect transactions.
I think they will make good; I know they want to make good.

I think it is safe and fine to run this pack in the interim period, if I run it conservatively--maybe even hard. It may not matter to the pack.
A bad cell is not contagious, per se, so long as it does not puff, or pop flames.

I think, by the symptoms gathered and by the logic presented,
that it's evident to this level thinker who has it all at hand, that:

a) A single cell in this pack is a bad actor.
b) BS is not a firm of mendacious rip-off artists.
c) Chinese immigrants may not have the easy grace of perfect English or the perfect attention (who does?) in keeping all pages's numbers up to date.
Who among the native-English speakers owns a perfectly spelled and tabulated business page?
I can name a few that don't.
d) D'oh, so no-one is perfect. I don't think BS is a combine for crooks or bilkers.
e) Everyone deserves a second, third and fourth chance. I sense well-intending people trying to make a living in difficult business. Very difficult.


That said, I can still bail from this battery purchase if BS does not act to my own satisfaction.
That's how it works; after all, I paid by credit card.
 
why waste time?
1. identify the bad cell(s) check v on hottest cell(s)
2. get new cell(s)
3. install yourself; pack fixed

they could send numerous packs each with a bad cell. it's called ZERO DEFECTS (FACTORY ships 100% to dealer)

or don't return 1st until u get 2nd pack, cherry pick best cells. use heat gun or blo drier to melt beeswax, make swap. be happy
 
I could do that.
And once I cut it open, how do I spot the bad cell?

Think on that. There are two ways. Both of which are work, and entail some risk and even more hassle for setting up lab equipment.

These pouch cells are fragile things. Solder once,
then hope never to disturb them again.

I think I had better be patient.
It would take a week to get (buy, pay for) more cells, by which to void the pack warranty.

eh.
 
Think on that. There are two ways. Both of which are work, and entail some risk.

1) Put each cell under load individually while monitoring the voltage drop.
2) Put each cell under load individually while monitoring the time to drain to a specified voltage.

Or instead of individually, split the pack in half and test;
then split the suspect 5 cells 2+3 and test;
then test individually those in the suspect fourth-pack.

Also, test to see if a cell doesn't want to accept a full charge. Higher impedance cells -- like those that have been damaged -- often won't take a full charge from a lithium charger set to shut off when charging slows to X milliamps.
 
Yes, thanks. Your ans. 1 and 2 were exactly what I had in mind:
a lot of work. The pack is warranted only as long as I don't bust it open.

Say, here's a cross-linking to my thread at the BatterySpace forum.
I've asked Powerizer/John to send me a loaner or a swap-out pack,
his choice is OK by me.

http://forums.batteryspace.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8315&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Likewise, I've linked him to this thread's page.

So, we are all on the same page.
I just want to get the pack right, ASAP.

humor:

Cheerios all,

milk


....and Honey, (xniceter is close enough to that)











fetch me a $**#! cold beeeer, now! tnx.

:lol:
 
Just now checked mail. They wrote while I was formulating my thoughts above.

That is to say, they wrote, not knowing that
I do not much want to give up the use of my bike for another two, or more likely, three weeks of enforced idle time.

It took two weeks from the date of order to get the pack here the first time.

I might/could/but should I send it back for repair?
I could just decide for a refund instead.
That would be shooting my own foot too.

There is no other equivalent specification pack available other than the Kokam.
And that can only be gotten from Velectris in France
for twice the price---although it does carry a useful 6 month replacement warranty.

I can't spend twice the price already paid.

The fresh BatterySpace letter

click


The point is: there's not a thing wrong with their wanting to do it this way
--except that it really lets down the customer's expectations.

It's a wet blanket on my interest in pursuing this battery matter.

From their end return for repair is the logical thing to do;
for their convenience, of course.

hmmm...

edit: dyslexic typo, "let's"
 
BS is selling an untested product and leting u debug it.
BS can sell loose cells untested.
But once they build a pack this expensive they must test each cell and provide a data sheet.

RETURN IT FOR REFUND

when bs sells tested packs, re-consider.
 
and
the BMS is the worst design i can imagine.

when a cell gets too low, it

MUST SWITCH OUT THAT CELL AND MAINTAIN ALL OTHER CELLS

as cells drop out the ebike slows down, IT SHOULD NEVER LEAVE U STRANDED, not until so many cells drop out that the low v cutoff kicks in.(at least 4 cells could be kicked out in your case)

this design is a nightmare and i predict u will never be happy with it. i know i wouldn't.
 
If a cell gets too low because that cell is failing, it kills the pack until that cell rises again.

Now, what can be more simple and correct than that?

It tells me WHOA.

Only a fool would proceed punishing the pack once the BMS tells him it sees trouble.

What's wrong with that?

----

And yes, I requested balancing taps, but I requested them several days after I'd placed the order.
I requested the taps through powerizer, who said "OK--pay extra cost--reply to the home email address with your order ammendment".

By that time, the pack had been finished and had been put into the UPS
slooooow boat to Florida.

So that is not their fault, the lack of taps.

----
But yes, depending on their response, I will decide whether to
kick my own self in the teeth and get a refund, Matt.
:twisted:



On the Topic of Righteous Indignation

You are old, brother Matt, and so am I,
yet I mellow in my latter years;
considering when, I kick a door down,
another door, steel, may be there.
What if it swings?
And I land on my ass?

Caution says think:
should better tap first,
and gently, ...allow for an in.


PS: what are my options for 8Ah lipo cells at this time?
None that I can find other than the BatterySpace Wanma cells.

The others are 1C rated, and many are privately branded.
1C won't do. Private branded does not much appeal either.
 
Thanks Gaston, the iron phosphates look good, yeah,
twice the bulk and weight but I do like the form factor.
On the downside, these in 10AH do have about twice the series resistance--a twelve pack in series will, in effect have a .2ohm resistance. So, at 20A, I lose four volts and the bike goes 23 instead of 25mph. On the top of this lipo pack--if it were "good",
which is not at present, I can almost touch 27mph.
It starts at 26.5 and will hold 26 until the pack drops below 40V,
then it's 25 and change.

That is the technology of the future for these packs, I think,
because of the ever-present risk of fire from cobalt cells--no matter if small, it is risk.

Cost, new-ness, that I'd be running them at the top of their rated delivery (20A cont. max, 30A burst), and another $300 for just two more Ah... yep.... I will pass.

And Forsen's pages are flakey besides the necessarily high cost of the packs. Pass again.

I thank you for illustrating that we get what we pay for,
and rarely can find a better -value- than what BatterySpace
will surely debug.

If the pack lasts me for a year of good daily service, great!
By then we will have more options and better prices for all these things.

What a rough business... your stock sits on the shelf decaying,
your source has QC problems, and you, the vendor, catch endless flack from all sides.

----sidebar:
Got a HOG motor today! Go to see the Stirling thread, folks.
I'm posting pictures! yaayyy. Life is fun here, at least.
 
Back
Top