BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

[JayCee]

OK - I've made my decision. I'm going to buy a BBSHD with 52V battery. Total bike/kit outlay will be ~$1700. What I'll end up with is similar to this for about the same money:

http://www.amazon.com/Martori-MTB-750-Electric-Bicycle/dp/B011DBH6F6

I'd probably be better off buying it ready to go, but I already have the bike, and it is a little better quality (hydraulic brakes, SRAM components), and I'll end up with a BBSHD over a BBS02, so I should end up with a bit more power (at least I BETTER).

thanks all.

 

[gman1971]

Apparently cyclone can have as much torque as cromotor from a member who had both

Comparing motors is tricky, but if you put 10kw into a Cyclone (like you can with a Cromotor) you'll almost certainly blow out the chain, cassette or freewheel, and if none of the external parts fail the internal Cyclone parts may not be up to that torque level.

Not if you spin the cranks to 500 RPM like MotoMoto did to achieve 66 mph on his mid drive eBike.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Alan,
Stop wanting to buy a Cyclone and just buy a Cyclone; you already have some high power hub; or are you afraid the Cyclone is going to be too hard to install?

to OP: You've already made your mind. Enjoy the BBSHD...

G.

I own both the Cyclone 3000 and BBSHD. So here is my two cents:

I really want the Cyclone for the power, but I'm now leaning heavily toward the Bafang, simply because I think they is a much greater chance of ending up with a rideable machine after dropping $1400 extra dollars. I hate the thought of spending more money for a wimpier machine (that's what keeps me from buying Apple products) but being that the Cyclones seem more like individual science and mechanical engineering projects, I could definitely see myself needing parts a couple of times or not being able to figure something out or having something simply not work - then getting frustrated and losing interest or getting sidetracked into another project, then ending up having a pile of junk end up in the corner of the garage for 10 years, wasting both the electric gizzies and the bike. The Bafang would almost certainly be up and running in a day.

I'm curious - a Bafang motor with accessories and battery is going to be no less than $1400 from Luna. With the $400 I have into a bike (Motobecane 529ht 29er mountain bike from bikesdirect.com), will I end up with something considerably better than I can buy for $1800-2000? What am I really saving over a comparable-performance turnkey bike? I haven't done much shopping for factory e-bikes.

What REALLY is the difference between the BBSHD and the newer BBS02 (with upgraded controller), other than $200? Where's the extra power come from? Are the motors identical? Write ups say that the "whole thing" has been improved for the HD, but nobody gives any real details, and I've been in industry long enough to know better. Lastly, I've been planning on doing a 48V system - should I consider 52V, and whats the best bang for the buck battery - again, the pros n cons of various options are not well described, at least on Luna's site.

 

[Alan B]

I may try a Cyclone, but putting 10KW through one and through the bike gearing sounds like a short term setup.

 

[gman1971]

I may try a Cyclone, but putting 10KW through one and through the bike gearing sounds like a short term setup.

If you spin the motor real high it should work... Motomoto got 66 mph out of 10kW on his Astroflight setup, so I see no reason why you couldn't spin it up at 100V... (don't get electrocuted tho)

G.

 

[sather]

I don't think you can buy a commercial e-bike that is comparable to either the BBSHD or the Cyclone. The Felt mid drive uses the 350 watt Bosch mid drive and costs more than $3000. My BBSHD has 4 times the power of the Bosch. My Cyclone has ten times the power of the Bosch. Battery replacement on the Bosch costs $900. for the 10amp hour battery, and there are no other sources. Most commercial e-bikes do not allow substitution of aftermarket batteries.

 

[2old]

This is a little off the grid, but may elucidate things. Yesterday, my friend and I ascended a nine mile, 3000'+ elevation gain trail. He weighs 148 pounds and his bike, a 2015 Felt hardtail with Bosch mid-drive, 42 pounds, total 190. I weigh 180 pounds and bike, hardtail with BBS02 and 52V, 10 a/h battery about 45 pounds, total 225. The ride up took about an hour and he had used three fifths (60%) of his battery if the "lights" give linear response (obviously, this wasn't very scientific). Think my battery was almost depleted (but don't have any data to reflect that). So, while my BBS02 can blow his doors off, in a real world type test the Bosch fares well. Pretty impressive to me and now I'm considering a Bosch too.

 

[nutnspecial]

2old, I'm wondering if they were similar battery capacities?

Even if we/you rule out 10-30% potential variable of pedal input power, I'm thinking rolling extra weight (of 30lbs) up 3000' elevation must make a measurable difference in how hard a drive has to work, and how much battery it uses.

That said, the haibikes etc are some really nice fine-tuned turn-key machines. $$$

 

[JayCee]

I don't think you can buy a commercial e-bike that is comparable to either the BBSHD or the Cyclone. The Felt mid drive uses the 350 watt Bosch mid drive and costs more than $3000. My BBSHD has 4 times the power of the Bosch. My Cyclone has ten times the power of the Bosch. Battery replacement on the Bosch costs $900. for the 10amp hour battery, and there are no other sources. Most commercial e-bikes do not allow substitution of aftermarket batteries.

FYI: The Amazon link I listed above was a disk-brake 29er mtn bike with a BBS02 drive and 10Ahr li-ion battery for <$1700. My build with a similar bike will cost the same. I'll end up slightly better overall, however, as I'll have a bit higher quality bike (though probably similar weight), a BBSHD drive, and probably slightly better cells in my battery.

 

[gman1971]

I don't think you can buy a commercial e-bike that is comparable to either the BBSHD or the Cyclone. The Felt mid drive uses the 350 watt Bosch mid drive and costs more than $3000. My BBSHD has 4 times the power of the Bosch. My Cyclone has ten times the power of the Bosch. Battery replacement on the Bosch costs $900. for the 10amp hour battery, and there are no other sources. Most commercial e-bikes do not allow substitution of aftermarket batteries.

FYI: The Amazon link I listed above was a disk-brake 29er mtn bike with a BBS02 drive and 10Ahr li-ion battery for <$1700. My build with a similar bike will cost the same. I'll end up slightly better overall, however, as I'll have a bit higher quality bike (though probably similar weight), a BBSHD drive, and probably slightly better cells in my battery.

eBike performance is directly related to the battery you carry, better battery, better eBike. You can have the best motor in the world, but if you don't have the batteries to go along with it, you won't be at the potential of the motor.

G.

 

[LyonNightroad]

I'm with this guy, I couldn't stand to use less than 30ah ever again (@14s). There is something about effectively unlimited range that makes the bike more fun not to mention all the advantages of 1C discharge.

 

[gman1971]

I'm with this guy, I couldn't stand to use less than 30ah ever again (@14s). There is something about effectively unlimited range that makes the bike more fun not to mention all the advantages of 1C discharge.

I agree, I am using 32 Ah @ 18S LiPo, so 2400 Wh capacity, around 80 mile range.

G.

 

[JayCee]

I'm with this guy, I couldn't stand to use less than 30ah ever again (@14s). There is something about effectively unlimited range that makes the bike more fun not to mention all the advantages of 1C discharge.

I'm starting to lean that way myself. I had planned on a ~12Ah battery w/ PF cells, which I do think will be more than enough. 99% of my planned riding is going to be on my personal loops I built on my land for my dirtbikes, and I can commute to work (~10 mi) with it too if I ever feel the need. While my loops are not too terribly long (~2mi loop), the terrain is very steep and technical, so I suspect it will suck up a fair amount of juice. I will always be within a short distance of the house, however, so it wouldn't be a big deal to run out. OTOH, the $$ per W-hr is significantly reduced going up to 20Ah with the same cells, so I just might go that route. I do have to measure my bike again though - thanks to my freakishly short legs, I don't have a whole lot of room inside my teeny frame and a 20Ah triangle might be pushing it.

 

[Alan B]

I went the 14S 20AH route, and I'm glad I did. On one trip of 26 hard miles I exhausted that entire battery. A 10AH pack would be very limiting for me. Great for short rides, but not enough for long ones. I'm planning to have 20+10 one way or another, so I'll have the choice of 10, 20 or 30.

 

[2old]

nutspecial, FYI the Bosch is 400 w/h (36 X 11); mine was 520 (52 X 10); I agree my extra 40 pounds (20%) has to require more w/h for similar pedaling on the same hill. Wonder if anyone has performed a study where weight was the only variable. It would seem that battery consumption would be proportional to weight. My wife (120 pounds) rode a Haibike (45 pounds) with Bosch and 400 w/h battery up the same hill a couple of months ago and used slightly less than 60% of the battery. Of course, the downhill for both trips was almost all coasting so actual range was for 18 miles.

 

[JayCee]

Well - my battery decision was made for me. I cut templates for all of the considered batteries that Luna sells - ALL of the larger capacity packs, and all of the plastic-case packs were too big to fit into my frame, with the exception of a 25r 12AH triangle, which (of course) isn't currently available. I'm forced to do a rear rack mount battery, so I'm going with an 11.5AH PF cell aluminum-cased job (52V). The pack was what I picked out in the first place, ironically enough, before you guys started getting me thinking about 'bigger n better'. Unfortunately, it appears that is all of the capacity my 'lil bike can handle. Hopefully the aluminum case will be crash-resistant enough to survive back there.

 

[LyonNightroad]

Even this little guy wont work somewhere for you?

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/52v/52-panasonic-ncr18650b-20ah-power-density-and-performance/

 

[JayCee]

Even this little guy wont work somewhere for you?

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/52v/52-panasonic-ncr18650b-20ah-power-density-and-performance/

Not in the frame. 15" - teeny.

 

[markz]

Most helpful thread for me this one comparing the two.

I've been studying this because my d.d. rim cracked at the pin joint. I will sell it and get rid of it. Had one fellow look at it yesterday, I will reduce price.

I am 375lbs, I use 24Ah battery which is quite bulky because they are 18650 in the 1.6Ah cans. That adds another say 10-15lbs. So round it up to 400lbs all in. Flat roads I like 40-45kph (26mph), and speeding on the rare occasion up to 55kph(34mph) for a mile(1.6km). When I am on river pathways where bikes are allowed alongside pedestrians, I like 30-35kph which is 19-21mph. But I like to speedily fly up hills too.

With my body weight, I dont think the BBSHD is sufficient for my needs, thats why I am leaning towards the C3kw. What do you guys think?

Also why is the square taper cheaper then the ISIS for the Cyclone?
Does it really matter?
I dont pedal much anyways.


----------------------------------------------------
Cyclone 3000W
Pro's
More performance
3000W+
More Low End Torque

Con's
Fiddle with
Lots of wires
Not as stealthy
Mounting Brackets
Nosier
Go through chains more frequently

Analogy is like a Big V-Twin


----------------------------------------------------
BBSHD
Pro's
Bolt on and done
Reliable
Easy simple install
Clean looks
min wires, zip ties, boxes
Looks like a bicycle

Con's
Not geared low enough for cadence 20:1
If you need more power then 2kw


Analogy is like a high revving inline 4

 

[speedmd]

nutspecial, FYI the Bosch is 400 w/h (36 X 11); mine was 520 (52 X 10); I agree my extra 40 pounds (20%) has to require more w/h for similar pedaling on the same hill. Wonder if anyone has performed a study where weight was the only variable. It would seem that battery consumption would be proportional to weight. My wife (120 pounds) rode a Haibike (45 pounds) with Bosch and 400 w/h battery up the same hill a couple of months ago and used slightly less than 60% of the battery. Of course, the downhill for both trips was almost all coasting so actual range was for 18 miles.

The bosch I rode , my impression was that it has a much more efficient blend of motor to rider power. I think you will need to play with pas settings quite a bit on the bbs to come close to the efficiency of the bosch system. In pas zero setting and blending manual throttle while pedaling would be a better comparison.

 

[markz]

Remember too that there is a price difference between the two
C3k is $399 + $100 s/h (Cyclone TW)
BBSHD is $700 + s/h (Luna)
BBS02 is $400 + s/h (Luna)

I see that Luna has a 7500W mid drive for $700, that would be good to start a new thread in for sure.

 

[markz]

Just paid for the Cyclone 4000 watt square taper for $518usd shipped, came to $670cad shipped.
States nothing of the controller amperage, but I know I will be way happier with this kit.

I just got fed up with the Conhismotor 1500W Direct Drive, with its new Sun Ryhno Lite rim that I drilled out the spoke holes at an angle but yet kept breaking spokes, and I noticed the pin/weld seam is frocked. I will braze it back, buy some cheapo ebay spokes and paint eerrrr nice and it will be for kids or something. The controller kicks in too often so its real safe, cant frock anything up.

 

[neil.b]

Would you consider carrying you battery in a backpack? It really opens up your options for battery choices. I have a really nice hiking daypack with excellent padding and straps and its really no bother carrying my 14s5p GA pack. Also worth noting that the bike will feel more nimble in extreme off road situations as you can shift your weight and the battery's weight around as needed. For day to day stuff frame mount is better/more convenient, but for hardcore off road then backpacks are better. Another thing to consider is that having a frame mounted pack can be detrimental to the battery itself as they really don't like the knocks and vibrations off road riding can bring. Having a backpack battery also vastly increases your options as far as what bikes you could convert in the future without compromising capacity so much, it means you have the option to switch to some pretty gnarly freeride/DH bikes should one take your fancy.

Edit: Lol, just spotted the date this thread was started. A little late to the party.

 

[jastill]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread,

what is the cadence range of the cyclone 3000? I can't find a good answer to this question.

I've seen the BBSHD said to max out at 150 rpms at ~52V (true?), BBS02 at 120 rpms, but can't find same spec for cyclone.

Thanks!!

Does anyone have a fancy curve like Grin has done with their kits over its cadence range? (torque/efficiency/etc.)

 

[Tommm]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread,

what is the cadence range of the cyclone 3000? I can't find a good answer to this question.

I've seen the BBSHD said to max out at 150 rpms at ~52V (true?), BBS02 at 120 rpms, but can't find same spec for cyclone.

Thanks!!

Does anyone have a fancy curve like Grin has done with their kits over its cadence range? (torque/efficiency/etc.)

Cyclone is ~500rpm on 52v, ~720rpm on 72v after internal 6:1 reduction. Then you have a cog 12 or 13t and then the chainrings.