Best commuting cargo bike?

[HAROX]

I just don't know anything about moped or motorbike. :lol:

no problem, cwah.

My needs are actually quite straightfoward:
- Able to commute quickly 15 miles journey (around 30 mn would be good)
- Able to escape traffic jam (otherwise 30mn becomes 1h30mn)
- Able to park it easily on over-crowded london city.
- Able to carry heavier stuff on my bike.

I travel 15 miles a day, sometimes with heavier stuff (sand, groceries, furniture, tools)

The problem is that each type of bike only perform good on 2 area maximum:

I understand. Set your sights for something that travels less than 30mph, reason being, anything going faster is higher KW and must be registered and licensed, cwah. Otherwise you are probably illegal where you live, in the UK.

2. Getting a bigger moped/motorbike would allow me to commute faster and would be able to carry heavy stuff. But I'm wondering about its ability to go over traffic jam, and biggest issue would be to park it. We don't have parking space in my workplace so I would need to be sure I can find a way to park it on the street safely, and find room to park it without getting tickets.

You are correct, and bicycle theft is increasing in London. You need locks. You need some privileged parking. Most importantly, you need lights so you can negotiate traffic. You must know enough about motorcycling to realize, extra speed and power without lights is asking for big trouble. It's a safety thing.

3. The yunda mundo or other cargo bike were somehow a compromise between all these point as it's a bit more agile and flexible to park... but as other said, not strong enough...

Right you are. However, if you set your sights for less than 30 mph, and you use your best judgement, and you defer to lorries and buses and pedestrians, you can find a way. Look how many cyclists there are in London. Those people have to fight that mess every day. Just be one with them. BTW when you are in a traffic jam, you ARE the traffic jam.

Do you have a picture of Nate motorbike? And I suppose I would need to ship it from USA??? It would be overpriced I think. The yunda mundo can be found for £450 on the UK.

Nate's motorbike? The Nate motorbike doesn't exist, cwah. Nate owns Xtracycle. Nate would like to have a Zero, but his wife won't allow it, but that would be the motorcycle Nate would convert, cwah.
The Xtracycle complete would cost about 500 dollars. There are Xtracycle dealers in the UK I believe. The Xtracycle is designed to fit on a mountain bicycle with 26" wheels.
If you go back to the thread, back up the page, where I say I may have a deal 4U... and follow the link, you can get lots of information.
And once again have a great evening!

 

[Alan B]

My commute is 13 miles each way with 1200 feet of climbing in one direction and 600 feet of climbing in the other. It takes about 35 minutes on the Cromotored GreyB.org set to 75% in the controller with 18S 20AH Lipo pack. Bike weighs a little over 100 pounds and has front and rear suspension, moped rims and tires. In Speed II at 75% it runs about 25 uphill on 10% gradient, 30 downhill and 28 level at full throttle. On speed III it reaches 35+ but I don't run it there.

It needs a bit more cargo carrying capacity. I think a proper rack would be adequate but would not carry more than about 30 pounds on a rear rack for safety reasons. Weight on the rear rack destabilizes a motorcycle and becomes unsafe pretty quickly. If you want to carry more weight it needs to be between the axles, not beyond them. I have some thoughts about how to mount a strut or two to stabilize the existing rear rack so it will handle weight more safely. But it is hardly a cargo bike. I have not seen a long frame dual suspended cargo bike. That would be a big welding project.

At these speeds for daily commuting dual suspension and tough tires are required, unless your road surfaces are perfect and ever clean. Just hitting a pedal in a turn with a non suspension bicycle resulted in a crash for one of our members, for real world safety the suspension contributes a lot helping to maintain road contact on poor surfaces.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I agree with dogman. When I was younger many years ago, my only transportation was a Honda 250 "Rebel". Since it was geared for only 80-MPH top speed, it was surprisingly fast from 0-60. I got awesome fuel mileage. But of course it had license/registration/insurance costs. If I had kept it, I fully expected it to live for over 100K miles. Both the brakes and acceleration were snappy. Much fatter tires than a bicycle provided a safe-feeling contact with the road.

Up to 30-MPH I would be comfortable on an E-bike. Many have gone faster than this, but that's just my personal comfort zone.

 

[cwah]

Thanks guys, that makes me think about what I want...

An xtracycle maybe able to go 35mph? And able to carry 5kwh battery pack? Something I can cruise for long long time! lol

And carry stuff.

I have to look into the xtracycle website, but also maybe consider a mountain bike... but I'll never be able to put more than 1KWH battery on a mountain bike

 

[HAROX]

Thanks guys, that makes me think about what I want...

An xtracycle maybe able to go 35mph? And able to carry 5kwh battery pack? Something I can cruise for long long time! lol

And carry stuff.

I have to look into the xtracycle website, but also maybe consider a mountain bike... but I'll never be able to put more than 1KWH battery on a mountain bike

Thanks cwah. You're totally credible and if I hear anything else that could be considered worth a nickel to help you along, I'll share it, tho', really most of the time, I know nothing...nothing. That's why I'm here I guess. Well at least these people here respect me despite my seeming innocence. :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

Your ideal might be just about what I'm riding now. Just with a perhaps stiffer frame. I did my best, but homemade from junk crap bikes does limit stiffness. But I'm very happy with it's 30 mph cruising speed and don't feel a tiny bit unsafe at 30 mph. 50 mph, no way though. Not on bike tires for starters.

Surely youve seen it, but in case not, This pic shows it with a 9c motor, but now it's sporting a robust 5304. That's the cargo bike standard, 5300 clyte or something bigger. Mabye John still has those scooter motors? Or a cromotor. Run it on a voltage that just barely reaches 40 mph, then cruise 35. That's still reasonable for an Ebike. 50 mph ebikes aren't commuters, they are racing machines expected to break stuff at times. 1500w should get you cruising 35mph, 2000w tops. Again, a reasonable level motors might tolerate longer than 5000w.

I do need to get around to a brakes upgrade, just lacking the super long cable to disk the rear, front waiting on a better fork and front wheel for disc.

The long wheelbase really does make it track nice at higher speeds. And It rides stable with a huge load in the back. Enough weight does increase the tail wag though, but it never develops into a tank slapper of a high speed wobble. A similar franken bike, or good production longtail with a few upgrades like a quality shock fork could surely tackle 35 mph. It's above 40 mph that tires heat up and melt in one day, and brakes become a joke.

 

[cwah]

Yes dogman, that's what I'm looking for.

I cargo bike similar to your one, but with shorter wheelbase to handle heavy load, with rear moped tyre, a cromotor or similar, 5kwh battery and hoping for a shorter bike to park it easily.

Not sure how to reach that. xtracycle is maybe the best choice.

 

[miuan]

cwah: speaking from my experience, less is more. putting all that heavy battery on an already heavy bike is going to make it handle poorly and the spokes will only last for a while until the wheel collapses.
I currently ride a 700c Kona Dew with dual geared motors that can sustain 40mph and at 35mph it could go 15 miles on a 1kWh pack. I can comfortably put 1.5kWh on this bike if I ever need to. That is obviously only feasible if you have a removable battery and charge at work, which I do. A FS bike will ensure more comfort and less strain on rear spokes, but you will have less cargo capacity.

 

[dogman dan]

A surly frame would be a good choice, but not really for a true motorcycle performance, 40 mph plus. I'ts just designed as a bike, like all bikes, and you are contemplating an electric motorcycle with pedals.

There's this lately, from hanebrink

http://www.gizmag.com/hanebrink-hustler-x5-elecrtic-bike/24774/pictures#3

But if you are doing a longtail "bike" that flies you really need a stiffer custom frame designed for a strong motor. Not a bike designed for pedal power. Like these guys build. http://www.designlogicbikes.com/products.html

As I said, I've seen this frame fly like a bat outta hell on the racetrack with a large gas motor. Astounding how well it kept up with the fast guys on the track, beating the pants off 80% of the field. This is the kind of frame you need, one designed for a motor.

Pics are on this page. This is the kind of frame you need for 40 mph. http://www.designlogicbikes.com/home.html

 

[Alan B]

Heavy loads must be on or between the axles for stability and safety, not beyond them. Short wheelbases don't have room to carry heavy load.

Going fast safely and reliably on real road surfaces requires suspension. Suspension and frame must be designed to carry the weight including cargo.

Cargo bicycles are designed to carry significant loads at low speeds on good roads. If the road surface is poor the speeds must be reduced further.

Almost anything will work for a short time, but combine high speed, heavy load, significant distances, daily riding, real road surfaces and reliability and safety will suffer.

5 kwh is motorcycle territory as are the speeds and loads you are desiring. That's about 90 pounds of Lipo, even more of LiFePO4. Plus housings and cables. This bicycle is going to weigh over 200 pounds without rider or cargo. To have that moving at 40 mph over cracks and potholes in the pavement is going to be a great deal of stress. Add rider weight, cargo, and it is not credible to be safe and reliable at these speeds with a short overloaded overpowered unsuspended bicycle.

It is fun to dream, but just because you want something doesn't mean it is going to work that way. Trying to meet a wide range of requirements with a single vehicle (like carrying a refrigerator) results in something that looks like an SUV. Putting pedals on it and calling it a bicycle doesn't make it one.

The folks who do cargo carrying bicycles successfully seem to have one thing in common. They keep speeds down. They run bicycle speeds. 15-20 mph. Doubling the speed quadruples the energy in hitting a bump, so speeding up really pounds the equipment. You want to be repairing this thing constantly?

Good luck in your search, make sure safety and reliability are high on your list.

 

[dogman dan]

My cargo bike has full suspension, and will very very comfortably fly 30 mph down a very bad washboard dirt road while carrying 30 pounds of battery. But I do want to slow to 20 mph for a corner.

But a price is paid, like 60 wh per mile to ride 30 mph all the way. It's big, funky, and covered with parachute like bags. Definitely way over 100 pounds of bike.

I do agree though, that limiting speeds to 35mph makes more sense, simply because carrying enough battery to go faster requires an even stronger frame and better suspension, such as you see on a Zero motorcycle.

 

[cwah]

Thanks for your answers guys. The zero motorcycle appears to be very nice, but with a price tag of £12000 I can't afford it....

I'm now to the point to think that I may need 2 differents bikes:
- a slow cargo bike
- a faster montain bike

If I were to go down to the road of a montain bike, anyone managed to do 40-50mph speed and carrying a capacity of 5kwh battery? I'm so pissed off by range anxiety. My brompton with 1.3Kwh battery althought heavy gives me a good peace in mind :lol:

 

[miuan]

cwah, you DO need a custom frame to house a 5kWh battery that weighs 40 to 55kg.
stuffing all the battery into an off the shelf frame is plain impossible and extremely dangerous.
You can get them onto a stock cargo bike but then you lose most of its carrying capacity.
Since your rear wheel will be beaten to death, you want a strong multihole rim that's incompatible with existing hub motors, though you can drill more holes into the hub flange so you can use e.g. a steel 72h cruiser rim.
The longest Design Logic frame seems to be able to house a lot of battery and a GNG drive too.
You can complement the GNG with a front hubbie to get to 40mph territory without sacrificing reliability.
But you will need a strong fork. I use an XC32, but with some machining skills, a Shiver SC or other thru axle fork can be made to work too.
Sadly, I do see your will to travel at 40mph thru morning traffic, I've been there for 2 years.
Lots of options to go with, none of them really easy to do, or extremely sensible anyway.
Lastly, is charging at work a definite no no?

 

[Chalo]

Are you sure you don't want an overvolted Sinclair C5 with a trailer full of HK lipo? It would be awesome!

 

[cwah]

cwah, you DO need a custom frame to house a 5kWh battery that weighs 40 to 55kg.
stuffing all the battery into an off the shelf frame is plain impossible and extremely dangerous.
You can get them onto a stock cargo bike but then you lose most of its carrying capacity.
Since your rear wheel will be beaten to death, you want a strong multihole rim that's incompatible with existing hub motors, though you can drill more holes into the hub flange so you can use e.g. a steel 72h cruiser rim.
The longest Design Logic frame seems to be able to house a lot of battery and a GNG drive too.
You can complement the GNG with a front hubbie to get to 40mph territory without sacrificing reliability.
But you will need a strong fork. I use an XC32, but with some machining skills, a Shiver SC or other thru axle fork can be made to work too.
Sadly, I do see your will to travel at 40mph thru morning traffic, I've been there for 2 years.
Lots of options to go with, none of them really easy to do, or extremely sensible anyway.
Lastly, is charging at work a definite no no?

Charging at work is possible, but only with a bike of a size of a Brompton.

but I wanted more battery because very often I use the bike to travel and not just for work. And it's difficult to find a charging point.

What you said look very complicated.. hmm.. isn't there an easy way?

 

[cwah]

Are you sure you don't want an overvolted Sinclair C5 with a trailer full of HK lipo? It would be awesome!

That is nice, but I would look like a dork :lol:

 

[dogman dan]

That's it in a nutshell. You need more than a "bike" to pack enough battery to haul ass AND have range. It's part of why my race bike crashed easier the last time I raced. I added only about 10 lbs more of battery and destroyed the handling properties. Bike frames just aren't made for packing those kind of loads, AND going 40 mph. Too much lateral flexing on a regular bike frame once loaded up.


You want your cake and to eat it too. Bear in mind, to build what you want electric is gonna cost 2-3x what it would cost to just buy a gas scooter or motorcycle with 60 mph. AND, it will be an illegal unregistered uninsured homemade motorcycle.

You might fly under the radar at 30 mph, but you will have everybody that sees you doing this if your bike does 40-50 mph.

 

[HAROX]

You want your cake and to eat it too. Bear in mind, to build what you want electric is gonna cost 2-3x what it would cost to just buy a gas scooter or motorcycle with 60 mph. AND, it will be an illegal unregistered uninsured homemade motorcycle.

cwah, you say you'd look dorky in a certain sort of "car". ok.
let's talk physics, simply. To go faster, you must stretch the design of it. Quit trying to second guess the process.
These people are here to help you decide to be safe, in a nutshell, cwah.
Stretch your speed, stretch the design. That costs money. Bicycling is CHEAP. Electric bicycling is COSTLY.
If you need to get to work in less time, just remember, time is FICTION, it doesn't exist, really...REALLY! Make the correct choice, not for us, but for yourself.
Maybe you don't realize it yet, but your choice is really a matter of life and death.
Death is final, even when talking physics.
As always, these people are here to give you a clue, about building, about maintaining, and about staying alive. It's no joke, cwah, really.

 

[miuan]

What you said look very complicated.. hmm.. isn't there an easy way?

An ICE bike.

 

[Goathead]

I'm now to the point to think that I may need 2 differents bikes:
- a slow cargo bike
- a faster montain bike

If you can use a trailer on those occasions you need to haul more, you might really simplify this equation. Faster without it, slower with it and you've got a couple more wheels on the trailer to bear the load.

 

[dogman dan]

That's a pretty good solution, particularly if you build for about 30 mph top speed in the first place. For example, get an HT Rear motor, run it on 18s or so for a top speed of 35 or so on a good mtb FS frame. Then if pulling a trailer, keep the speed down some, but be able to haul some stuff at 25 mph fine.

It's a barrel of compromises, but not compromising safety too extremely.

 

[cwah]

What you said look very complicated.. hmm.. isn't there an easy way?

An ICE bike.

How can I put 5Kwh battery on a ICE bike?

That is also quite big and expensive, and I'd look a bit dorky again :lol:

 

[cwah]

You want your cake and to eat it too. Bear in mind, to build what you want electric is gonna cost 2-3x what it would cost to just buy a gas scooter or motorcycle with 60 mph. AND, it will be an illegal unregistered uninsured homemade motorcycle.

cwah, you say you'd look dorky in a certain sort of "car". ok.
let's talk physics, simply. To go faster, you must stretch the design of it. Quit trying to second guess the process.
These people are here to help you decide to be safe, in a nutshell, cwah.
Stretch your speed, stretch the design. That costs money. Bicycling is CHEAP. Electric bicycling is COSTLY.
If you need to get to work in less time, just remember, time is FICTION, it doesn't exist, really...REALLY! Make the correct choice, not for us, but for yourself.
Maybe you don't realize it yet, but your choice is really a matter of life and death.
Death is final, even when talking physics.
As always, these people are here to give you a clue, about building, about maintaining, and about staying alive. It's no joke, cwah, really.

Agreed with members advice here. I think I'll only go with a montain bike that could only go up to 40mph and few KWH battery.

 

[cwah]

That's a pretty good solution, particularly if you build for about 30 mph top speed in the first place. For example, get an HT Rear motor, run it on 18s or so for a top speed of 35 or so on a good mtb FS frame. Then if pulling a trailer, keep the speed down some, but be able to haul some stuff at 25 mph fine.

It's a barrel of compromises, but not compromising safety too extremely.

Hauling stuff at 25mph with a trailer is... already what I'm doing now with my Brompton! 8)

Going 30mph (well, actually it's 27mph top speed) top speed is also what I'm already doing with my brompton! 8)

1.3Kwh battery is the configuration I have now with my Brompton!


My goal is to bring my new bike to the next level, at least 10mph faster and twice/triple the battery capacity. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have another bike, if it doesn't perform better :lol:

 

[miuan]

How can I put 5Kwh battery on a ICE bike?

You don't need a battery since it has an engine.
Again, what you're aiming to achieve would require custom heavy motorcycle-like frame, wheels etc., making everything almost as heavy if not heavier (and much more expensive and still less reliable) than a decent light ICE bike. You could barely pedal that bike anymore, and it would become obvious to all that you are actually riding a motorcycle.
It's not that I prefer an ICE bike, it's the mere fact that electric bicycles have some limits you aim to break into.