Best internal gear hub?

[spinningmagnets]

Woodlandhills, I reviewed the video teardown of the older SA 5-speed, and it is the one with ball-bearing locking mechanism.

I could not find a video of the new Sturmey Archer 5-speed, or the SRAM P5 cargohub (both are advertised as being improved and much stronger). Upon looking up the parts exploded drawings, both of them use a newer style of gear-locking mechanism. It looks like they have six fixed splines on the center of the axle, and the two gear-sets slide on and off of the splines to lock or unlock them.

There's a chance that the new generation if 5-speed are great, but no data yet...other than woodlandhills trying one out as we speak.

 

[WoodlandHills]

Did you see anything that might be the "rotary" part of the design? Externally it is of a larger diameter than the other 5-speed, at least it is on the drive side. That's why the cogs have a larger ID making them incompatible with any other IGH. One of the benefits of the Nexus 3 (and the SA 3) is that the cogs are the same for both companies, thus there is a much bigger selection of gearing since the aftermarket can sell the same cog to two different markets. It made too much sense for them to ever do THAT again! :?

 

[cjh]

Spinningmagnets, have you ever looked at the SRAM Automatix 2-speed automatic hub that uses a centrifugal clutch?

https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/automatix

http://mccraw.co.uk/sram-automatix-review/

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/automatix.html

http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62320

 

[spinningmagnets]

Yes, Its a legacy product from when SRAM bought a controlling interest in the German firm Fichtel & Sachs (informally known as Sachs). There's an auto shifting version actuated by RPM, a kickback version, and I think there might have been a cable-shifted version at one time.

 

[cycleops612]

I made & lost this post, bummer.

the xiongda 2 speed hub motor has a similar ratio range to some 3 speed (preferred for their relative strength i gather) ighS i think.

The xiongda has bigger, and presumably stronger gears, than ighS.

So a xiongda is very similar in functionality, lighter, and way simpler, than a mid drive & 3 speed IGH.

Bottom line is tho for alloy MTBs it seems, it has to be rear hub & v-brake on rear, which i could live with, if my frame permitted v brakes.

 

[cjh]

I don't think a Xiongda can compare to a Cyclone, just a slight difference in power.

 

[cycleops612]

I don't think a Xiongda can compare to a Cyclone, just a slight difference in power.

I didnt.

dunno, but its native controller is 48v 15amps (720w) stock, and i hear over 1000w is doable. Sounds ok to me & most others methinks.

 

[markz]

I like your article on IGH SpinningMagnets.

I have been looking for cheap IGH's but cant seem to find any.
Looking at eBay, I found a couple.
Used and old Sturmey-Archer AW's seem to be around $50 USD shipped. Lots available.
You can buy a brand new IGH for $80.

http://sheldonbrown.com/shimano333.html

Our basic recommendation is to avoid any Shimano 3-speed hubs other than the Nexus hubs. Generally, older Shimano 3-speed hubs were only ever spec'ed in low-end bikes anyway.

 

[markz]

What about the classic Sturmey-Archer AW 3 speed IGH.
I just scooped this exact IGH thats already laced into a wheel, picked it up at the used community bicycle shop for $35 CAD, I probably could have shaved $10 off that price but I didnt. On eBay they sell for $40 USD ($52CAD) shipped. I am thinking I might use one in a mid-drive setup later on with another project.

Overview of IGH http://sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html
Quote below linked http://sheldonbrown.com/shimano333.html

3-speed Internal Gear Hubs

The original internal-gear hubs were English inventions going back to the beginning of the 20th Century. The 1936 Sturmey-Archer AW hub became the standard of the industry for the next 60 years or more. Fichtel & Sachs in Germany (now a part of SRAM) has also made reliable internal-gear hubs since early in the 20th Century.

From Wikipedia

Sturmey-Archer's most widely known product is the AW three-speed hub gear, introduced in 1936 and still in production as of 2016. It is the survivor of a much larger range of "A" model three-speed hubs, including the AM (medium ratio for "club" riders), the AC and AR (very close ratio for time triallists) and the ASC (a unique three-speed fixed gear). In 1939 a four-speed model FW was released. This led to the development of a series of five-speed models, and by 1994, seven-speed hubs were introduced. Production was low, and in the mid-2000s these were discontinued.
SW hub gears

Found a diagram here https://sheldonbrown.com/sutherland/CB-IGH-4-aw.pdf
Servicing http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/aw.html

 

[amberwolf]

What about the classic Sturmey-Archer AW 3 speed IGH.
<snip> I am thinking I might use one in a mid-drive setup later on with another project.

Just be careful how much you slam on the torque with it, or you may break the teeth off the gears at the roots. Look up a post by (IIRC) AussieJester, maybe 1000w, with disassembly pics of what happens.

As long as you either make a "cush drive" input to it, or always gently take up the chain slack and gear lash before putting power into it, it shoudl do ok.

 

[Pete Leaviss]

Max. input torque of the hub is the most important factor to consider here when using with an electric motor. Think the Rohloff has the highest input torque of around 70-75Nm. Most big brand eBike motors (Bosche, Yamaha, Brose etc) have an output torque slightly higher than that (around 80Nm) and they're only 250W motors. From what I've seen, there's nothing on the market yet that can be used reliably on a eBike with a decently powered motor. Some people have been talking about 1000W motors and a IGH. IMO, if you want to build a reliable eBike you can forget it.

If you want a variable transmission system on your eBike then you're best off going with a hub motor and a BB gearbox like the Pinion. Only issue with a BB gearbox is that you lose about 15% transmission efficiency as opposed to 4-5% with a decent IGH. Having ample power from your hub motor would really negate this issue until your battery dies though. If that happens you'll start building your quads pretty quickly..

 

[Chalo]

Max. input torque of the hub is the most important factor to consider here when using with an electric motor. Think the Rohloff has the highest input torque of around 70-75Nm. Most big brand eBike motors (Bosche, Yamaha, Brose etc) have an output torque slightly higher than that (around 80Nm) and they're only 250W motors.

Are you forgetting that the crank torque is divided by the primary gear ratio? 80Nm of crank torque is only 34Nm of rear sprocket torque, at Rohloff's specified minimum input ratio of 38:16.

The NuVinci N171 hub (big and heavy first generation) had a maximum torque spec of 130Nm.

 

[amberwolf]

If you want a variable transmission system on your eBike then you're best off going with a hub motor and a BB gearbox like the Pinion.

If you use a hubmotor (in a wheel) then you don't get any benefit from any BB gearbox or IGH or any other transmission, for the motor.

Since the point of this thread is to get exactly that, then I don't understand your post.

Quote from first post of thread:

Who makes the best internal geared hub for putting motor power through?

 

[Pete Leaviss]

You get the same benefit of an internally geared system when using a mid motor and an IGH as with a hub motor and a BB gearbox.

The benefits of using an internally geared system aren't related to where the motor is located. Have a think on it Mr Wolf..

 

[amberwolf]

You get the same benefit of an internally geared system when using a mid motor and an IGH as with a hub motor and a BB gearbox.

Nope.

You cannot run the hubmotor's power thru a BB gearbox (assuming the hubmotor is in the wheel, where almost everyone uses them (there are exceptions, but only a setup like Stokemonkey would allow it to use the BB gearbox, a regular middrive would not)).

The benefits of using an internally geared system aren't related to where the motor is located. Have a think on it Mr Wolf..

Yes, they are directly related to that, if, as is the purpose of this thread, to run the motor power thru the gearbox.


If you are only using the gearbox for pedalling (not the purpose of this thread), then you would be correct...but that is off topic for this thread.

 

[Pete Leaviss]

Always find it strange when people completely shut things down when they're not entirely sure what they're talking about. No offense Wolf man.
Of course you can use a hubmotor with a BB gearbox. What makes you think you wouldn't be able to do that?

These guys use a 1000W peak output hub motor with a Pinion BB gearbox:
https://www.hilite-bikes.com/titanium-pinion-e-bike-pedelec-gates-belt
These guys also use the same set up in almost all of their bikes:
https://electrolyte.bike/en/product/vorradler-s3e-pinion-45/

A mid motor places more strain on a drive train (regular derailleur or IGH) than a hub motor does. That's why if you want to use a motor with more power and an internally geared system, it's best to use a hub motor.

Of course you can't use a BB gearbox with a mid drive.. they're in the same location!!

 

[amberwolf]

Always find it strange when people completely shut things down when they're not entirely sure what they're talking about. No offense Wolf man.

FWIW, my name is not "wolf man".

I do know what I am talking about, and I am not "completely shutting things down". I'm pointing out an error, that in this case happens to also be off topic for the thread.

Of course you can use a hubmotor with a BB gearbox. What makes you think you wouldn't be able to do that?

"With" is not "through".

Based on your replies, I don't think you fully understand what this thread is about, even though i pointed you to the first post where the topic was "defined". I'll requote it in case you didn't read it:

Who makes the best internal geared hub for putting motor power through?

it also has a link (little arrow) to the first post.

It is about running the power of motor *through* the gearbox, so that you can keep the motor in it's efficient range for different conditions.

What *you* are talking about does not include that ability, and does not apply here. What you are talking about makes a completely separate drivetrain for pedals and motor that does *not* provide a multi-ratio gearbox for the motor, only for the pedals. Not the point of this thread. Niether of the systems you link to drive the gearbox ffrom the hubmotor, they do not give the motor gearing.

There *are* applications around the forum that *do* use a gearbox *only* for pedalling, including my SB Cruiser trike (which uses the IGH in the frame rather than the wheel), but this thread is not about that.

If you like, you can post OT stuff in a thread but the point is simply that the hubmotor in a wheel isn't *using* the gearbox, so it *is* off-topic.

Of course you can't use a BB gearbox with a mid drive.. they're in the same location!!

Yes, you can, with the Stokemonkey type, as I said. It drives the left crank just as if you were pedalling (or like a stoker on a tandem, hence the name), so it would work on a BB gearbox, which is driven by the cranks. THere are other drive systems that also drive the left crank this way, so power is transferred thru the BB crankshaft, and would also work with a BB gearbox. The only concern would be whether the BB gearbox could handle the torque input (especially if pedalling were also being done, under a high load).

It's just not done with the more common middrives that drive thru the rightside chainring set that directly drives the chain. (even some to many of those could be mounted in a way that would allow it, but it would take quite some doing and defeat the purpose of their design, to make them easy to mount and use).

 

[Pete Leaviss]

Of course it's on topic Wolfman. Read my initial post again. I'm pointing out that IGH's aren't built for the majority of mid drives on the market as the input torque for the majority of IGH's it too high when used with a mid drive system. Therefore I'm suggesting an ALTERNATIVE option.

I know Sturmey-Archer, Nexus, and SRAM all make 7 and 8 speed hubs, and I've red reviews on them from a cyclist's standpoint, but whats best when dumping a couple thousand watts through? Would a Nuvinci be better or worse at high torque?

Read his post again. He wants to know what IGH is best for 'dumping a couple of thousand watts through'. There isn't a single IGH on the market that is designed to handle anywhere near that amount of power. Again, the reason I suggested using a Hub motor and a BB gearbox is because that's the only set up you can run if you want an eBike with that amount of power!

There's no 'error' here. Not even sure why you felt the need to chime in when I was offering relevant advice?

 

[Thomsontouring]

I've built several bikes with Nexus 3-speed and 8-speed IGHs using BBS02 (1450w) and BBSHD (1750w) mid-motors. I haven't had a hub fail yet in thousands of miles. Don't shift under load and they work fine. You can use single-speed chain and 1/8" sprockets which eliminates most drivetrain wear issues. The BBSHD has 160 NM torque but after a 46/22 chain reduction it's only 76 NM on the hub.

 

[Pete Leaviss]

These are the specifications direct from Shimano. Max input torque across the range is 60Nm.

 

[Chalo]

These are the specifications direct from Shimano. Max input torque across the range is 60Nm.

Interesting. For perspective, that's the amount of torque developed in the hub by a 250 pound rider standing on the front pedal of a 170mm crank, using a 44/19 gear ratio.

 

[qwerkus]

These are the specifications direct from Shimano. Max input torque across the range is 60Nm.

Nice docu! I always wonder how you guys get to this stuff... How about the SG-3R75 ? It's supposed to be 3sp heavy duty with steel encasing instead of aluminium.

Roller brake only though, which means you need the infamously expensive cesur rollerbrake-to-disc adapter to mount disc brakes.

 

[Chalo]

Roller brake only though, which means you need the infamously expensive cesur rollerbrake-to-disc adapter to mount disc brakes.

IM70, IM80, and IM81 roller brakes offer plenty of stopping power for the rear wheel, and are cleaner with lower maintenance than discs.

You really can't use a huge amount of rear braking before the wheel skids. Why accept the drawbacks of discs when they don't get you any added benefits?

 

[qwerkus]

IM70, IM80, and IM81 roller brakes offer plenty of stopping power for the rear wheel, and are cleaner with lower maintenance than discs.

You really can't use a huge amount of rear braking before the wheel skids. Why accept the drawbacks of discs when they don't get you any added benefits?

Yeah I remember our discussion 2 years ago about RB vs Disc. Bottom line is: I got the RB model BR-C6000-R which is supposed to be the successor of IM80 and offer 30% more stopping power, but in my opinion they suck. Sure: super low maintenance, but also super heavy and super spongy. In fact, first thing I did was to get some expensive jagwire kevlar brake hose with straight steel wire, which improved the brake feeling a little bit, but still: those BR-C6000-R brakes are no match for dual piston hydros on 180 or 203mm rotors in terms of stopping power. The only nice thing I like about them, is that the "sponginess" helps avoiding early wheel squiding, but I would not get them again. Anyway - I think this discussion is more about IGH than brake systems.

 

[Chalo]

IM70, IM80, and IM81 roller brakes offer plenty of stopping power for the rear wheel, and are cleaner with lower maintenance than discs.

You really can't use a huge amount of rear braking before the wheel skids. Why accept the drawbacks of discs when they don't get you any added benefits?

those BR-C6000-R brakes are no match for dual piston hydros on 180 or 203mm rotors in terms of stopping power. The only nice thing I like about them, is that the "sponginess" helps avoiding early wheel squiding, but I would not get them again. Anyway - I think this discussion is more about IGH than brake systems I think.

You could also say that the Nexus Inter-3 doesn't offer the same shifting feel as a derailleur equipped bike, which would be just as true and just as irrelevant as quibbling about the feel of a roller brake on a hub designed for a roller brake. The 3-speed hub does what it does, correctly, and so does the roller brake. If it can skid the rear wheel-- and it can-- then there is verifiably no difference in stopping power between it and any other brake that can skid the rear wheel.

Lever feel can be changed by the use of a different lever pull ratio, which usually is not an option with hydraulic brakes.