Bike Build Number 1: Electra GhostRider in The Works

[Blueshift]

I recently Scored a sweet deal on an Electra Ghost Rider. Here is a pic of the bike for all of you who are not familiar with it.

The Ghost Rider Has internal rear hub shifter and coaster breaks
Frame: Aluminum Alloy 7005
Front Forks: Steel
wheels: Rear 24''x3'', Front 24''x3''

For Added Safety I am installing either a front v-clamp or Disk Brake. (Disk break if the clearance checks out between the dropouts)

The kit I am looking at is Ampedbike's 26'' front hub dd motor+tube battery. I have made up my mind on using a front hub motor instead of the back. I plan on making this my build thread an will update it when progress is made and or I have some questions.. All input is always appreciated.

I am wondering at this stage about proprietary problems between battery, controller, motor, and throttle. If i ever wanted to use the latest battery tech, for instance, would I run Into compatibility issues that couldn't be resolved with adding or subtracting resistance?

P.S. I don't expect to get the electrical components for another month or two due to insufficient funds.

 

[dogman dan]

Should have no trouble other than perhaps changing to a different plug style for one connection or other. It's not like bionx. The kit should use a fairly standard controller.

 

[AussieJester]

Thats one cool lookin store bought chopper bicycle buddy!
Any particular reason you decided on front frock (hub) motor?
Seems a shame to not go with something like a MAC
geared frock motor on the rear, just a thing with me,
i can't understand the whole obsession with wanting front wheel drive
on a bicycle, i wish you best of luck with your project
whatever you chose to do, it really is a lovely looking
bike to base a e-bike build on couldn't ask for more battery space
thats for sure cruiser/chopper frames are just made for this e-bike business i tells ya
ooks super comfy to, ready to cruise all daaay loooong...

KiM

 

[TonyReynolds]

Any particular reason you decided on front frock (hub) motor?

Could be that he's got his gears in the rear internal hub and wants to use those rather than messing with a derallier on a bike that has no hanger?

 

[Blueshift]

Any particular reason you decided on front frock (hub) motor?

Could be that he's got his gears in the rear internal hub and wants to use those rather than messing with a derallier on a bike that has no hanger?

Thanks for the input thus far guys, feel free to chime in when ever you have anything to say.

Yes, One Reason for the front hub is because of wanting to use the existing brake setup in the rear hub.

Here are a few more reasons
1. I would prefer keeping the fat 3'' tire in the back (aesthetics)
2. the front fork is steel the bike frame is aluminum
3. Two wheel drive intrigues me.
4. A front kit, if i ever upgrade to a better system, will be an easier transfer to my mtb.
5. If i were to do a rear kit.. it would have to be on a 24''x3'' rim.. I have not found any kits with that configuration that have the motor hub come with a rim that is 3'' thick. I have no experience at installing spokes and instead of having a factor of two potential failures.. (1 being my installation and the second being the manufacturing quality of the product i buy) I will now have a third factor that involves whoever will end up trueing and spoke (threading?) my electric hub onto the rim.

As far as i can tell in most cases it makes more sense to go with a rear motor as some have already mentioned to me. But I think this situation is justifiable for front hub.

 

[Blueshift]

Update: I am now ready to purchase my ebike kit from amped bikes sometime this week.
If anyone has any comments on the viability of the ampedbikes kits or if they want to recommend another company plz say so.

Here are my expectations

1. 20mph top speed but maintainable 20mph even with 5 or 10 degree inclines.
2. around a 20 mile range
3. hill climbing is easy with the aid of a moderate level of pedal assistance

Here is a big question i have.. If I am getting say 18mph how could i tweak the bike to get 20mph? I want to ensure that magic number of 20. Once I ensure the tire pressure etc is optimal, can I change the settings of the speed controller? any help would be appreciated.

 

[dogman dan]

I believe you will see close to 23 mph top speed no pedaling. But you will slow down considerably on a 5-10% grade.

At 6-7% grades you will slow to about 12 mph. Pedal like hell, any slower and you smoke the motor. If you want to really climb hills, ( above 10% grade) that aint the bike, that aint the motor, that aint the hub to have it on and that aint the voltage to use.

But nevertheless, that winding motor on 36v will be happy enough to climb grades to 7%, and can go to 10% with 48v. At mild paved grades like less than 10%, the front hub will work fine as long as the road is dry. Once wet, you are screwed climbing steep hills with front hub.

You were talking degrees which is twice as steep as % grade, but few paved highways are more than 10%. Driveways and residential roads can be crazy steep though. San Francisco has em, as does places in LA. Whacky they build there I think. Too long of stairs to the front door! Driveways that look ski slope steep. Nasty.

To tweak the speed up increase the voltage. it should run fine on 48v, which means up to 60v fully charged. That should see you moving somewere between 25-27 mph. So a nice expensive new battery would be the answer. Or adding a second battery in series for a few more volts.

To see 20 mile range from the stock kit battery, you will have to pedal a lot and ride slower than 20 mph, possibly slower than 15 mph. You might want to seriously consider a 36v 20 ah or 48v 15 ah battery that has 20 mile range at 25 mph. You want to oversize the battery some, so you don't discharge it 100% on every ride. If the 20 miles is not so important, like you can ride 8-10 miles, charge, then ride 8-10 miles, then the stock battery should be fine. You can always carry two of them to extend range, and buy the second one later.

 

[Blueshift]

I believe you will see close to 23 mph top speed no pedaling.

23mph might be a problem. Thanks for bringing that speed to my attention. The law only permits me to go 20mph. I would like to, if possible, tweak my bike to go 20mph electric and have the motor disengage faster than 20mph when pedaling.. here's the parameters of the law...

1. Bike can go no faster than 20mph
2. Bike cannot propel the rider faster than 20mph even with the combination of human power. (that means motor must disengage faster than 20mph.

would this be a controller feature? @17mph ill need to up the speed @ 23mph Ill need to lower the speed.

Thanks for the great information.

p.s. I am a mathtard I will probably not traverse an incline of no more than 5 degrees.

 

[beast775]

Once you get going, you wont care about 23mph in a legal arena,it just doesnt matter.i follow bicycle riders who ride 25-30 mph in stretches no motor.these frames are awesome. i have a stretched electra cruiser and its great for ebike equipment.

 

[Blueshift]

I want to be legal, no matter how you look at it, i wont be @23mph.

So now, If it is not possible to limit the speed to 20mph I guess I have to pick another kit from somewhere else..... Any Recommendations? It can be more on the expensive side. I want reliability and distance and importantly 20mph TOP SPEED

I know there are alot of Hot roddin' members here but...unless there's some sorta legal buffer of about 3mph that even the a-hole cops have to abide by then I don't want to risk it.

If i get pulled over for going over the limit I could get thrown in Jail. I dont have a Drivers License (never had one and never will). So if they classified my vehicle as a motor vehicle and driving without a license, That could be grounds for Jail time.

If I am being over cautious plz explain to me why.

So given this scenario, I may have to go with another kit that will assure me 20mph top speed. Is it hard to find a quality kit that ranges from 20.0 to 20.8 mph top speed? Why would a company sell a kit 3mph over the limit? wouldn't that hurt sales? It would be quite a load off my shoulders knowing i was legal.

p.s. I would like for it to be affordable but if it would cost extra to dial in at 20mph then so be it.

 

[AussieJester]

Using a Cycle Analyst to limit top speed wouldn't be usable why exactly? You punch in 20mph and it will stop the bike from going over 20mph...You need to enter the advanced menu to change this so its not like a cop could just scroll through your CA and see you have it set there... I understand your caution however, Jail is not a place you want to be, period...been there done that. With the Cycle analyst you could have your 'legal on road speed' and then if you felt the need to go quicker off road or bicycle path maybe? etc etc you have the option to increase the set speed limit on the cycle analyst....I would perhaps checkin with your local cop shop, and ask them what is legal (in their minds) and what its not, if you obey to what they tell you surely if they see you riding they can't bust you...?

KiM

 

[Blueshift]

Using a Cycle Analyst to limit top speed wouldn't be usable why exactly? You punch in 20mph and it will stop the bike from going over 20mph...You need to enter the advanced menu to change this so its not like a cop could just scroll through your CA and see you have it set there... I understand your caution however, Jail is not a place you want to be, period...been there done that. With the Cycle analyst you could have your 'legal on road speed' and then if you felt the need to go quicker off road or bicycle path maybe? etc etc you have the option to increase the set speed limit on the cycle analyst....I would perhaps checkin with your local cop shop, and ask them what is legal (in their minds) and what its not, if you obey to what they tell you surely if they see you riding they can't bust you...?

KiM

Thx Kim , a CA sounds like a good concept, but i am a total newb.
Can it work with the ampedbikes kit? If it cuts the motor a lil over 20, will it kick back on when the speed comes down? Does it control the motor or will it only cut power? If it only cuts power then can i simply get a little stopper and place it behind the throttle so it wont keep going on and off? I may have to do some research.

 

[wesnewell]

A CA won't make the bike legal by limiting the speed. The bike has to be incapable of exceeding whatever the limit is for your state. I think you're worrying too much about this, but I do believe that the infinion controller SL (Speed Limiter) will do what you want. I just enabled it on a switch on a trike I built and I'm pretty sure I got the same speed both up and down a grade. Of course to be legal, technically you couldn't have a switch to turn it off.

 

[Blueshift]

A CA won't make the bike legal by limiting the speed. The bike has to be incapable of exceeding whatever the limit is for your state. I think you're worrying too much about this, but I do believe that the infinion controller SL (Speed Limiter) will do what you want. I just enabled it on a switch on a trike I built and I'm pretty sure I got the same speed both up and down a grade. Of course to be legal, technically you couldn't have a switch to turn it off.

I am assuming that the CA wont work because it is easily changed? If that"s the case, couldn't i simply stuff it in an electrical box, screw a lid on it, and strap it on somewhere lower on the frame? Where are the rules that specifically say that you have to regulate the speed through one/main controller? Isn't a CA kinda like a secondary controller? (albeit through the throttle specifically).

Many ebikes can be tweaked to go faster and I am assuming that how easy it is to tweak is what determines in a court case, for example, what would pass and what wouldn't.

Instead of getting into box "a" ("motor controller") to tweak the speed you would have to get into box "b" (CA provides speed limiting function albeit through a different method).

Would that work or am i missing something?

 

[wesnewell]

Like I said, I wouldn't worry about any of this. Just don't go 40mph past some cop and they will likely never bother you. You'll have to do your on research on the legality part for your state.

 

[dogman dan]

The motor winding was originally settled upon when lead batteries were the norm. 36v sla's would give you 23 mph, but only for about a block, and then they slowed down to legal speed, or much less. Lithium tends to go faster for much longer than lead. In most places, an extra 3 mph is not noticed by anybody. They don't have to deal with california cops. In my town, you can ride 30 legal, so cops never notice me.

One option would be to run the amped kit on a different battery. 10 cells of lifepo4 would be less voltage, and run slower than the normal 12 cells of lifepo4.

Another option would be to choose a slower motor. This motor is very similar to the amped one, and will just barely reach 21 mph on a fully charged 48v lifepo4 battery. That may be close enough, after a mile or two, your speed with this motor will be right around 19.5 to 20.5 mph on perfect flat ground.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=31146 It's also a screaming good deal on a kit.

The other option would be to simply choose a lower powered gearmotor kit. Most of them hit 20 mph right on the button at 36v. The lower amperage of the motor gives slower speed that results in longer range, and with only 350 watts, speeds above 20 mph aren't really possible without pedaling or having a tailwind. Those kits often aren't disk ready, but some are. I don't recall if amped sells a disk ready gearmotor or not.

You'd like the methods motor better though, since it has the power to climb hills, and little gearmotors do not.

 

[Blueshift]

Update: Due to complications, Amped Bikes is unable to get me my battery for another 6-8 weeks . They've had to change where they get their batteries from due to the tsunami/earthquake in Japan and the transition has been a little rocky which is understandable. I have been already waiting 2 or 3 weeks. So I may decide to go with another battery. I would like some suggestions.

I have been looking into some of those Ping Batteries but am confused as to which one i should get. Right now I am looking at the 36v 10ah, 15ah, and 20ah. with each battery on the site comes with a recommended motor power. The 10 ah says for "up to 400 watt motor".

I believe the amped bike motor is 500watts so would the 10ah be out of the question? I assumed that whether the battery was 10 15 or 20 ah it would draw the same power on the same motor but the storage capacity was different. Is this true or am i missing something?
could i buy two 20ah packs and double the distance I get?

If you guys suggest something other than ping plz post your comments as well.
I would really like a 20 mile travel capability.. and in the near future even a 40 or 100 mile capability.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[wineboyrider]

Using a Cycle Analyst to limit top speed wouldn't be usable why exactly? You punch in 20mph and it will stop the bike from going over 20mph...You need to enter the advanced menu to change this so its not like a cop could just scroll through your CA and see you have it set there... I understand your caution however, Jail is not a place you want to be, period...been there done that. With the Cycle analyst you could have your 'legal on road speed' and then if you felt the need to go quicker off road or bicycle path maybe? etc etc you have the option to increase the set speed limit on the cycle analyst....I would perhaps checkin with your local cop shop, and ask them what is legal (in their minds) and what its not, if you obey to what they tell you surely if they see you riding they can't bust you...?

KiM

+1 what AJ said. Except for the asking the cops part....
At least make sure you don't smell like alcohol when you talk to them. hheehhheeeee.

 

[wesnewell]

The 500W rating of the motor is just that, a rating of 500W for continuous use. The motor will draw whatever watts your controller throws at it. With a 40A controller capable of 100V I've run my 500W motor at close to 4000W. The battery you choose needs to be able to produce the amps the controller draws, so you need to match the battery to the controller, not the motor. So if you have a 20A controller, you need a battery speced for use of 20A, etc. Personally, I wouldn't use anything but lipo because you can configure it to any voltage you want in seconds and you don't have to worry about the amp rating as even the lowest C rating will handle any ebike controller with ease. And it's a lot cheaper too. My 5ah 24s 100V pack cost about $200. A 5ah 10s 37V pack is about $80, $160 for 10AH, etc.

 

[TonyReynolds]

I understand the desire to ride legally for your locale, but I just don't understand the desire that your finished eBike not exceed the legal speed under any conditions...

The speed limit on freeways in Seattle is 60MPH. That does NOT mean that any of my motor vehicles have a top speed limited by that legal limit; the speed is limited by my foot or wrist. As many have said, non-powered bicycles can easily exceed a 20MPH limit as legislated for eBikes, especially on downhill stretches. If you don't stand-out, i.e. if your build doesn't scream "electric motorcycle", then with exercise of due care and caution, you should be okay. On most streets, the cops won't care, even in LA or SanFran; they're simply to busy with more pressing issues. Many bike paths limit speeds to 15MPH (at lest here in Washington state), so being aware of the speed limits in where you're riding is important, just as with a car.

A CA, or even a simple cycle computer will allow you to monitor your speed. I *personally* don't believe you have anything to fear if you exceed the eBike speed limit slightly, unless you're doing so in a way that attracts attention.

Tony