Epithemeus
100 W
Gorgeous build. You've clearly put a lot into kitting it out nice. Thanks for sharing.
A recumbent build
- Thread starter Epithemeus
- Start date
Gorgeous build. You've clearly put a lot into kitting it out nice. Thanks for sharing.
Steelrazor
1 µW
Thanks. It’s been a lot of fun. I’m sure you know the feeling.
ScooterMan101
1 MW
I was asking someone a couple months ago about this very subject , regarding cars however it should be the same with a trike.
Brakes...important when hauling a trailer, but you can build brakes into a trailer, too, and there are even ways to make them auto activate based on hitch tension/pressure (some discussion on those in one of my trailer threads, I think). If the trailer has brakes of it's own, it's less important that the hauling bike/trike has stopping power for both of them.
Another problem with a delta trike pulling a trailer is that (again depending on hte hitch and load) in a sharp enough turn or avoidance maneuver, the trailer can push the trike and tip it enough to flip them both over.
He said to have brakes on the trailer and have them activated when going around a corner so that the trailer does not push you.
ScooterMan101
1 MW
The reason I don't yet have a 3 wheeler is that a Tilting Delta Bicycle is not yet available . I talked many years ago with a A and PI've already got an upright bike I've been using and it does work well (and has disc brakes
What would be the main thing that would shy you away from a three wheeler?
mechanic who was building a trike using parts from a off road quad , he said the main problem with reverse trikes is that they need
to have allot of down force on the single rear wheel . That eats up allot of energy . Delta's a better , however they need to have a
proper C of G( center of gravity ) . it is very important to have the the right C of G so that they don't tip over. however even with that they still corner slow. The solution is to make a tilting trike . Look at the old Carver Motorcycle , and new Carver Scooter , and old Honda Gyro so see what I am talking about.
Now we just need people to design some , and even after designing to sell the plans, and even sell kits for a Tilting Delta Trike
For what purpose? Unless you wish to travel in excess of ebikes legally restricted speed limit or ride in competitive events, I see little need or advantage. It complicates the build, bloats the cost, and adds unnecessary weight. If you are intent on cost & complexity... spend it on suspension instead.
I too have had a long standing interest in just such a (non-tilting) vehicle - something like this:
ScooterMan101
1 MW
For the Purpose of some things that other trikes don't offer.
1) The fun of tilting , I have owned Sport Motorcycles in the past , Leaning into Corners is allot of Fun
2) A two wheel Recumbent will not have the space for me to put on two flexible Solar Panels
A Copy of the Carver allows 2 panels , one above the tilting pod, and another across the flat back section
3) I too had my eye on that Red Italian Delta Trike, However besides them going out of business, it does Not offer
the Total Wind and Rain Protection that a Carver Design does , but even more than that it does not lean .
4) Delta Trikes can have the ability to have larger space in the back for more batteries and cargo
and they can be better for towing a trailer than a 2 wheel and a tadpole trike .
1) The fun of tilting , I have owned Sport Motorcycles in the past , Leaning into Corners is allot of Fun
2) A two wheel Recumbent will not have the space for me to put on two flexible Solar Panels
A Copy of the Carver allows 2 panels , one above the tilting pod, and another across the flat back section
3) I too had my eye on that Red Italian Delta Trike, However besides them going out of business, it does Not offer
the Total Wind and Rain Protection that a Carver Design does , but even more than that it does not lean .
4) Delta Trikes can have the ability to have larger space in the back for more batteries and cargo
and they can be better for towing a trailer than a 2 wheel and a tadpole trike .
Chalo
100 TW
Recumbent tadpole trikes usually have the opposite weight distribution issue, so it's not clear what homeboy was talking about.
Also, rolling resistance distributed on three identical wheels and tires will be the same no matter how you divide the weight among them. So you can let go of that idea.
ScooterMan101
1 MW
even though you say the rolling resistance would be the same in both types of recumbent his point was
that with a tadpole trike it is very easy for the rear to slide out sideways , so the designers design them with allot of
weight on the back , so with more weight and or down force on one of the wheels then it has More rolling resistance ?
Anyway for pulling a trailer the Delta design is better ,
He also mentioned to make a Delta Trike really long as well as having
the correct C of G .
He was making a Tadpole design , but it was not for utility and or puling a trailer
for me the Delta Design is better . And allows more room for Solar
that with a tadpole trike it is very easy for the rear to slide out sideways , so the designers design them with allot of
weight on the back , so with more weight and or down force on one of the wheels then it has More rolling resistance ?
Anyway for pulling a trailer the Delta design is better ,
He also mentioned to make a Delta Trike really long as well as having
the correct C of G .
He was making a Tadpole design , but it was not for utility and or puling a trailer
for me the Delta Design is better . And allows more room for Solar
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ScooterMan101
1 MW
Steelrazor,
I was thinking about doing the same with my newish simi recumbent I got it just before our long and wetter than usual winter here in Ca. , for me it will be the Befang mid-drive for going up the mountains , and a DD rear hub for the flat areas and for using regen when going down mountains . And for having the Befang mid-drive last longer.
Now if I could only find a lightweight DD rear Hub motor . Any available or being made in the last couple of years ?
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Chalo
100 TW
No, adding weight to a wheel does proportionally add rolling resistance, but when that weight is removed from the other wheels their rolling resistance is reduced by the same amount (if the wheels are all the same).
ScooterMan101
1 MW
Interesting , so then a tadpole trike design could have less weight on the front wheels which would not be so good for traction and or handling , I wonder if that is why so many of them have the riders weight so far forward and legs and feet often in front of the front wheels .
His main point that I remember and that was over 15 years ago to remember all this , was that a tadpole/reverse
trike design has and/or could have the ability to slide sideways easily . Not good when towing a trailer .
I do notice when looking at motorcycle reverse trikes that the rear tire is often much wider than the front two
tires . A wider tire has a larger contact patch so it does have more rolling resistance .
Now because of the higher speeds of a motorcycle the ability for the rear end to slide out would be
greater than on a slow speed reverse recumbent bike that could be the reason reverse motorcycle trikes
have such large rear wheels and tires .
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I disagree that it's easier to pull a trailer with a Delta Trike:
It seems that way if you assume that a single wheel trailer that leans with the trike you is not possible.
It is:
Imagine this is your tow hitch; a small Universal Cross or Universal Joint:
You have left-right and up-down for bumps etc in the road, but the only way your trailer can fall over on it's side is by twisting you and your trike on it's side too...
Now you have a trailer you can load it as high as you like, with a glass of water on top, as it leans with you.
It's narrow, so it doesn't 'cut corners' and it's easier to reverse and to maneuver in/through tight spots.
It has less rolling resistance too.
A leaning Delta is a way safer, better option than a non leaning Delta IMHO, but as most of your braking force comes from your front wheel/s as a general rule, (weight transfer during braking); Tadpole gets my vote due to better stopping power.
If you go Delta: Look up 'Differential from angle grinders' here and NB that replacement gears for them are easily available.
If all your weight's on the back wheels; anything you can do to avoid your front wheel from just skidding in straight is a must.
A diff will also save on tires, battery and general stress and strain on everything else too.
It seems that way if you assume that a single wheel trailer that leans with the trike you is not possible.
It is:
Imagine this is your tow hitch; a small Universal Cross or Universal Joint:
You have left-right and up-down for bumps etc in the road, but the only way your trailer can fall over on it's side is by twisting you and your trike on it's side too...
Now you have a trailer you can load it as high as you like, with a glass of water on top, as it leans with you.
It's narrow, so it doesn't 'cut corners' and it's easier to reverse and to maneuver in/through tight spots.
It has less rolling resistance too.
A leaning Delta is a way safer, better option than a non leaning Delta IMHO, but as most of your braking force comes from your front wheel/s as a general rule, (weight transfer during braking); Tadpole gets my vote due to better stopping power.
If you go Delta: Look up 'Differential from angle grinders' here and NB that replacement gears for them are easily available.
If all your weight's on the back wheels; anything you can do to avoid your front wheel from just skidding in straight is a must.
A diff will also save on tires, battery and general stress and strain on everything else too.
Sure, for some types and sizes of cargo.
The trailer type and design will depend on your specific usage intent.
For instance, I wouldn't want to haul a piano on a single-wheel leaning trailer. I'd rather do that with a multiwheel trailer with a low-to-the-ground deck slung between them. (which is how I did that some years back).
I probably wouldn't carry any of my St Bernards on a single-wheel leaning trailer either; they would have to first learn to adapt to the motion and not panic and fight it, and for safety that would require training them on a separate stationary setup, not doing it during a ride. The older arthritic ones probably couldn't handle it, but younger ones might (until they got older and arthritic).
Groceries, even relatively large loads (one or two carts full) could be done with a very long singlewheel trailer, as long as the cargo containment was secure and enclosed, including lashing points to secure the separate parts of the load.
Other types of cargo would depend on what they were whether they could be hauled safely this way.
(I did a lot of pondering about this when I was still designing the BarkFiet (originally called Loooooooongbike), which was never built primarily because several of the cargo scenarios couldn't safely be hauled with the bicycle version of it; those considerations also generally apply to a single-wheel leaning trailer).
If you were fortunate enough to own a non tilting delta trike, I'd be tickled pink to share with you (with images) how the owner can, in fact, successfully couple an actively tilting, single-wheeled bob trailer to an non tilting delta trike. But that's not all.... the bob trailer also wears an self-contained Gmac, which allows me to couple it to nearly any HPV... powered or not.
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If you were fortunate enough to own a non tilting delta trike, I'd be tickled pink to share with you (with images) how the owner can, in fact, successfully couple an actively tilting, single-wheeled bob trailer to an non tilting delta trike. But that's not all.... the bob trailer also wears an self-contained Gmac, which allows me to couple it to nearly any HPV... powered or not.
Sounds interesting..?
Er... not sure why you're so amused?
I am here to learn.But... height doesn't matter if it leans.
I suppose these a cutoff point where a breeze could topple you, but a 2 wheeler wouldn't be much better if it designed for bike paths etc?
You need to get your dogs large skateboards!
Yes, it does.
To continue with the piano example, because it's handy: If you have a several-hundred-pound top-and-back-heavy cargo that is a few feet tall, like the upright piano, and you tip it beyond it's balance point, it's going to keep tipping and drag whatever it's strapped down to with it.
That would be the trailer.
When the trailer tips past the hitch roll limit, either the hitch will break, or it will tip the bike or trike or whatever that it's attached to.
If you happen to have a hitch strong enough to withstand the inertia of a tipping piano, and your hauling vehicle is heavy and wide enough to not tip over from the jerk of the piano hitting the stop of the roll limit, and your straps on the piano don't fail, then that won't happen. I don't know the math to figure out how wide and heavy something has to be to stop this from happening, but it's heavier and wider than what I'd be able to use.
It's *much* simpler to use the trailer type I already used for that successfully--it was hard enough even with that.
Even if you have an untippable solution...how do you load the piano onto the single-wheel trailer?
Youc an't do it from the rear, because the wheel is in the way. If the wheel is small enough to fit below the deck, and the deck is low enough to allow you to actually be able to push a piano up a practical-length ramp onto the trailer, the wheel will not roll over much in the way of significant road holes or bumps or debris.
You can't do it from the side, with a practical-length ramp, because even if you were strong enough to do it, you'd have to push the piano up the ramp from the front or back, and it would tip over onto you as you got it up on the ramp enough to begin tipping. A long enough ramp would have a gentle enough slope, but that's quite a long ramp.
Can't push the piano up the ramp on the side from one end of the piano, because the one=wheel trailer would have too narrow a top to be able to get it up there completely; you'd wind up having to rotate it as you pushed it up; I don't know about you but I couldn't do that. (I barely managed to get the piano onto the trailer that I did use, and that only by alternating a couple of crankstraps to pull it up the ramp).
Could use a lift like an engine hoist to pick up the whole piano, then maneuver the trailer under it, and lower it.... But then you have to have another trailer to carry the hoist with you to and from the cargo pickup/destination. (or one big enough to hold both piano and a hoist big enough to lift a piano...which you might need another hoist to lift onto it's trailer).
Other solutions? Dunno, can't think of any.
I've gone thru many unsuccessful methods of hauling various large items (most of them inanimate) over the years, with many crashes, broken items, hitches, trailers, bikes, bits of me, etc., so...I can't tell you all the things that *can* be done, but I can tell you a few that *can't*. :lol:
Some things work under certain circumstances, but exceed certain limits and you're no longer in those circumstances, and then they don't work anymore (at least, not as expected, and that can be problematic, disastrous, or even fatal).
So...there isn't a single trailer solution that does everything in all situations for every person.
I keep multiple trailers around (two primary) for different needs and bikes/trikes to pull them. I dont' have a "bob" trailer (one of the most common single wheel types), as there aren't any situations where that is more practical for me than any of the other solutions I've already used (cargo pods on the bike for DayGlo Avenger and CrazyBike2, for small stuff; converted bike trailers or custombuilt ones for bigger heavier items like stacks of large dog food bags (or dogs), etc.). A long time ago, with regular pedal bikes, I would have had a use for one for certain things...but nowadays, no.
They do work for a lot of things...but not everything.
I'm guessing youv'e no experience with large old dogs, or have any arthritis or intrinsic body pain yourself that limits your ability to move. You might want to do some pondering, sympathizing, etc. (not many people seem able to do this, or if they can, they don't bother)You need to get your dogs large skateboards!
NB that a dog running at speed does lean into corners, so it probably more instinctive than you think.
Just because a dog that's not injured or in pain might be able to do these things doesn't mean every dog could do it, or that I'd ever put one that is in pain thru that. Remember that sometimes the reason for taking a dog somewhere not under it's own power (walkies, etc) is because it *can't* do it on it's own, is injured and going to the vet, or it's just old and got a lot of owies.
A tilting surface means that a dog laying on it will slide downward and be banged or slammed into the sidewall, then turning the other way retilts it and slams them into the other one.
Can't just strap them down as that will hurt and possibly injure them.
Can't just wrap them in padding or they'll overheat.
Even if the trailer is very narrow and the dog can barely fit between the sidewalls, it's not a single solid mass and will still be moved back and forth, which is going to cause it pain or hurt it worse.
That's assuming nothing bad happens to the mechanical linkages between trailer and vehicle hauling it from the inertia of a 150-200lb mass slaloming from side to side like that, breaking the trailer off and letting it slide into traffic where the dog then gets run over.
I've made lots of mistakes with doggie trailers, too, two of which seriously endangered the dogs (once with Hachi, once with Nana), and learned from each one, mostly that I need to think of all the possible failure modes, consequences, etc., associated with these things. :/
Epithemeus
100 W
So my bike was in my garage while my house burned. I'll answer the immediate questions I'm sure that statement brought to mind. No one was hurt, my family and I all made it out in time before even smoke was in our unit (it was very close though, we think my daughters window blew out and the room very quickly caught literally as we were getting out the door downstairs) It was not related to my bike or the battery in anyway, the fire started in the neighbors truck in the driveway next to us (townhouse, so we are connected units) While the house and most of our contents are a write off (the roof is basically gone) we have insurance and a place to stay for now and our community has been amazing. So many people have helped us in so many ways. Anyway I'm actually here to talk about my bike rather than my stories but I can't just leave people with no info after a bomb like that
So the garage barely burned, just a small part of one corner had flame damage. So my bike is actually totally intact. Pics attached. Some drywall debris and insulation fell onto it and it's a bit sooty. It definitely got wet but I think it's mainly from wet drywall laying on top rather than getting directly soaked. The chain is very rusty for sure. The electronics turned on and I was able to ride it about a km to where I'm staying. However whatever issue the cyc photon I had on it was having where the motor spins up but doesn't actually engage seems to have been exacerbated to the point where hitting the throttle or pedaling is maybe 60-70% chance of the motor engaging properly, so yeah technically rideable but not a pleasant experience, I think I'm just going to count it as a write off. I'm also not sure how I feel about the battery, the reention case had a little puddle in the handle space and given how I seem to have new anxieties around fires for some reason, I might just write off the battery too. I'll probably post again here when I have a chance to teardown the battery a bit and investigate. Will want the extra opinions.
So way too much background info aside, questions/opinion gathering time! The insurance payout will cover my rebuild of the bike but I'm not sure exactly what kind of set up I want to go with this time around. Bike itself is staying the same but I'm starting over on the ebike part. I might have spoken about my preferences/use cases previously in this thread but that was forever ago so I'll reiterate.
Bike is a sunseeker ez sport ax. I am frequently hauling pretty heavy loads, trailer full of groceries and 4 year old on the seat in the rack, I would guess around 250-300lbs area. There are some decently steep hills in my area though I haven't needed to haul the groceries up them, just the little one. That may change though given my living space is in flux until the rebuild is done. I keep it sub 30 km/hr or slower a lot but when it's just me on the bike I do sometimes enjoy some higher speeds (the photon could do about 50 km/hr with my gearing) Torque sensor is a must for me, hate cadence sensors and am basically always pedaling. Pretend budget isn't an issue, between the payout and some extra cash I am willing to pay to get what I want. I care only about value, I'm not going to pay $400 extra for something unless it gets me $400 of extra value. On that note, I value Grin's stuff and company values, so unless another middrive turns out to be the best option, I'll be getting it from them.
One option is get a Photon again, when the motor works it works great. I love being able to put it in the granny gear and crawl up basically any hill without using a ton of power and/or overheating. I took it up a 27% incline once with a 500w limit, it handled it like a champ. But I had a bunch of issues with the photon and my experience with mids has been they suck on throttle (admittedly 90% of my riding is pedal assist)
Option 2 is a gmac on the rear 26" wheel. I was very close to cancelling my photon order and ordering a gmac but then the photon shipped and I couldn't cancel. I feel like the motor on the rear would probably perform better in terms of power delivery/handling? I dunno, I'm far from an expert on bike dynamics, what do you guys think is better for a LWB bent, front or rear hub? If I go rear I feel like the gmac is the best fit as I want hill climbing torque more than high speeds.
Option 3 is take advantage of the 20" front wheel which seems to be a sweet spot for DD hubs and go with either an RH212 or an all axle. Would be the quietest which is appealing. Depends on handling as mentioned above.
Option 4 would be try a different torque sensing mid like a toseven or tongsheng. Not at all appealing from a brand standpoint, I don't have experience with them. Main appeal would be granny gear hill climbing and hypothetically more reliable than the photon I had issues with.
Oops, typed an essay again accidentally. I am frequently overly verbose. If you read it all, thank you!
So the garage barely burned, just a small part of one corner had flame damage. So my bike is actually totally intact. Pics attached. Some drywall debris and insulation fell onto it and it's a bit sooty. It definitely got wet but I think it's mainly from wet drywall laying on top rather than getting directly soaked. The chain is very rusty for sure. The electronics turned on and I was able to ride it about a km to where I'm staying. However whatever issue the cyc photon I had on it was having where the motor spins up but doesn't actually engage seems to have been exacerbated to the point where hitting the throttle or pedaling is maybe 60-70% chance of the motor engaging properly, so yeah technically rideable but not a pleasant experience, I think I'm just going to count it as a write off. I'm also not sure how I feel about the battery, the reention case had a little puddle in the handle space and given how I seem to have new anxieties around fires for some reason, I might just write off the battery too. I'll probably post again here when I have a chance to teardown the battery a bit and investigate. Will want the extra opinions.
So way too much background info aside, questions/opinion gathering time! The insurance payout will cover my rebuild of the bike but I'm not sure exactly what kind of set up I want to go with this time around. Bike itself is staying the same but I'm starting over on the ebike part. I might have spoken about my preferences/use cases previously in this thread but that was forever ago so I'll reiterate.
Bike is a sunseeker ez sport ax. I am frequently hauling pretty heavy loads, trailer full of groceries and 4 year old on the seat in the rack, I would guess around 250-300lbs area. There are some decently steep hills in my area though I haven't needed to haul the groceries up them, just the little one. That may change though given my living space is in flux until the rebuild is done. I keep it sub 30 km/hr or slower a lot but when it's just me on the bike I do sometimes enjoy some higher speeds (the photon could do about 50 km/hr with my gearing) Torque sensor is a must for me, hate cadence sensors and am basically always pedaling. Pretend budget isn't an issue, between the payout and some extra cash I am willing to pay to get what I want. I care only about value, I'm not going to pay $400 extra for something unless it gets me $400 of extra value. On that note, I value Grin's stuff and company values, so unless another middrive turns out to be the best option, I'll be getting it from them.
One option is get a Photon again, when the motor works it works great. I love being able to put it in the granny gear and crawl up basically any hill without using a ton of power and/or overheating. I took it up a 27% incline once with a 500w limit, it handled it like a champ. But I had a bunch of issues with the photon and my experience with mids has been they suck on throttle (admittedly 90% of my riding is pedal assist)
Option 2 is a gmac on the rear 26" wheel. I was very close to cancelling my photon order and ordering a gmac but then the photon shipped and I couldn't cancel. I feel like the motor on the rear would probably perform better in terms of power delivery/handling? I dunno, I'm far from an expert on bike dynamics, what do you guys think is better for a LWB bent, front or rear hub? If I go rear I feel like the gmac is the best fit as I want hill climbing torque more than high speeds.
Option 3 is take advantage of the 20" front wheel which seems to be a sweet spot for DD hubs and go with either an RH212 or an all axle. Would be the quietest which is appealing. Depends on handling as mentioned above.
Option 4 would be try a different torque sensing mid like a toseven or tongsheng. Not at all appealing from a brand standpoint, I don't have experience with them. Main appeal would be granny gear hill climbing and hypothetically more reliable than the photon I had issues with.
Oops, typed an essay again accidentally. I am frequently overly verbose. If you read it all, thank you!
Attachments
Sorry to read about your loss - just thankful parties involved are OK.
Re; Your 'bent.
My immediate thought was two smaller gear hubs to spread the added weight over the long wheelbase, avoiding excess mass at one end a single larger/heavier rear hub motor would cause. Maybe pairing-up Grins SX-1 & SX-2, two controllers and your center mounted battery (if usable).
ebikes.ca
Re; Your 'bent.
My immediate thought was two smaller gear hubs to spread the added weight over the long wheelbase, avoiding excess mass at one end a single larger/heavier rear hub motor would cause. Maybe pairing-up Grins SX-1 & SX-2, two controllers and your center mounted battery (if usable).
Dual Motor Drives - Learn
Dual Motor and Multi-Motor drive systems allow you to get more power and torque than is available with a single motor. But they are also more complex to setup and wire.
ebikes.ca
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Epithemeus
100 W
Ooooo yeah that would be pretty sweet. I've heard good things about those motors. Could be potential issues matching rpms with the different wheel sizes, I'll have to see how close you can get with the winding options available. Thank you for the suggestion.Sorry to read about your loss - just thankful parties involved are OK.
Re; Your 'bent.
My immediate thought was two smaller gear hubs to spread the added weight over the long wheelbase, avoiding excess mass at one end a single larger/heavier rear hub motor would cause. Maybe pairing-up Grins SX-1 & SX-2, two controllers and your center mounted battery (if usable).
Dual Motor Drives - Learn
Dual Motor and Multi-Motor drive systems allow you to get more power and torque than is available with a single motor. But they are also more complex to setup and wire.
I can empathize with the fire...unfortunately in mine it didn't all turn out happy. I go right back there everytime I read about someone else's, or when I smell smoke especially of the type dumpster fires and the like make...
I go right back there everytime I read about someone else's, or when I smell smoke especially of the type dumpster fires and the like make...