Bionx PL500HS, Dahon MU SL, Schlumpf High Speed Drive

[dennis]

I agree, It's a great training tool. I can pedal to the point of exhaustion and still know that I can make it home on motor alone. I used to own the PL350 but the hub motor worked loose from the drop out and damaged the wires a few months ago, so I replaced it with the PL500. I put about 600 miles on the PL350 before the mishap. NOTE: to all Bionx owners, be sure to check your nuts :wink: are tight before each ride, due to the regen braking, the back and forth force on the hub eventually works the nuts loose.
I have over 700 miles on the PL500, so far so good. Just went for a 20 mile ride in the hills this morning. Full throttle blasts are fun, I got a funny comment from a spandex clad roadie that passed me and when I caught up to him and blew by leaving him in the dust. He said "But, dude you have a motor!"

 

[DahonElectric]

Yeap, that's something my dealer told me about those bolts. They use a torque wrench to tighten them to the correct specs so they won't come loose unexpectedly. Which means, changing a flat isn't going to be an easy thing with this setup. So, I have the Marathon Plus on the rear and moved the Stelvio to my original American Classic hub/paired spoke rear wheel.

I always see cyclists ride hard everyday. They keep pushing themselves to go faster. They seemed to believe that the harder the effort the more fit they become. While riding with great effort gives you the potential of being fit and strong, it is the recovery (easy spinning on flat terrain) day that allows torn muscles to be rebuilt and flush out toxic waste (lactic acid) which adapts your body to the new effort gradually. It usually takes about 24 to 48 hrs depending upon the individual. I don't have the luxury like some pro cyclists that do this full time, so the Bionx system allows me to ride to work as though I'm riding on flat terrain, even though I have to traverse 3 steep hills. So far, it's working great as it supposed to! Man, I should off gotten this system a LONG TIME AGO!

 

[Link]

Whereas cyclists tend to enjoy the scenery in between A and B, so that makes the Bionx system so appealing to all cyclists.

No scenery to enjoy around here, unless you enjoy the sight of endless apartment complexes, chain stores, and houses.

 

[dennis]

Whereas cyclists tend to enjoy the scenery in between A and B, so that makes the Bionx system so appealing to all cyclists.

No scenery to enjoy around here, unless you enjoy the sight of endless apartment complexes, chain stores, and houses.

Did you say no scenery? I know it's off topic, but this thread is shot to hell anyways.

A few oldies but goodies of the bike kitted with the PL350 for your vicarious enjoyment.

 

[EMF]

When using the pedal assist function, can you still use the regenerative braking? I read some BionX literature here (http://nycewheels.com/bionx-electricbike-systems.html) and it said it does not work concurrently. I am not sure what this means, but it sounds like you have to turn off motor assist to get regen braking. Here is a quote:

3. Regenerative braking

The Bionx kit also offers a feature called regenerative braking. When activated through the control console, this feature helps you recharge your battery as you use your brakes. It won't fully recharge the battery, but when used effectively it's a great tool for extending your riding range. Since it doesn't work concurrently with the pedal assistance, this feature is generally used on stretches of downhill riding when you don't need any assistance from the motor.

 

[Anonymous]

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[EMF]

Let's say you have power assist set to +3. You stop pedaling and engage the brake, then you get no regen/brake effect? On the other hand, if you have the console set to -4, then you can no longer have any motor assist, but if you use your rear brake, you get a regen/brake effect. It's either one or the other?

To me, it makes the plenty of sense to have regen when you are using motor assist, since you are draining the batteries and why not capture the kinetic energy, rather than wear out some brake pads? Of course, if you are going down a long hill, it could help I suppose, maybe this is when it is most useful.

Having said that, I really am curious more for the braking effect, than for the regen. It's just that the bike I am thinking of converting uses a coaster brake on the rear and you only can get the BionX pedal assist on a rear motor. So, I was trying to figure out if this regen braking would compensate. It would not be possible to add a caliper or disc brake to the rear wheel of the bike I am working on, as it is not designed for one.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[Anonymous]

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[DahonElectric]

Let's say you have power assist set to +3. You stop pedaling and engage the brake, then you get no regen/brake effect? On the other hand, if you have the console set to -4, then you can no longer have any motor assist, but if you use your rear brake, you get a regen/brake effect. It's either one or the other?

To me, it makes the plenty of sense to have regen when you are using motor assist, since you are draining the batteries and why not capture the kinetic energy, rather than wear out some brake pads? Of course, if you are going down a long hill, it could help I suppose, maybe this is when it is most useful.

Having said that, I really am curious more for the braking effect, than for the regen. It's just that the bike I am thinking of converting uses a coaster brake on the rear and you only can get the BionX pedal assist on a rear motor. So, I was trying to figure out if this regen braking would compensate. It would not be possible to add a caliper or disc brake to the rear wheel of the bike I am working on, as it is not designed for one.

Thanks for clearing this up.

One missing link that's not described in the manual is the brake sensor (REGEN SENSOR) that is installed on the rear brake lever of all Bionx system for on demand regenerative braking. You will see a reed magnetic switch of some sort that is attached to the base on the brake lever of the bike and a magnet on the lever itself. As you engage the brake lever, you move the magnet away from the switch thus severing the connection and allowing the control unit to sense you're engaging the brake. The control unit panel will then display a G (as in Regenerative Braking is engaged) and you will feel a slight back kick telling you that the motor is braking some speed for you. Mine is currently set to REGEN 2, which is adequate for brake assist down a steep hill while saving your brake pads as well as your rim wall from wear. By the way, that's the default setting I think. My dealer programmed the system for me, though I have the code to change it .

Your application should work (essentially it is a magnetic version of the coaster brake), but you probably need to max out the regen settings under code # 2006 (mag switch braking regen sensor) to realize maximum generation power on steep descents (nothing bad for the battery). You can download a variety of programming codes on this site to fully realize a dumbed down control to your taste. Level 4 is really nasty -- see my write up on the BIONX security system below.

Enjoy!

 

[DahonElectric]

I'm definitely no expert on bionx, but from test riding, the regen braking is truly a brake, it grabs the wheel and slows it down. So using them at the same time would be like throttle and brake on a car or motorcycle. I'm sure there are other possibilities with regen in general, but for bionx, I think it's basically only good for long downhill. I don't see regen as the main eadvantage to bionx, rather the way the strain gauge senses pedal force and applies assistive power. The regen braking works well for downhill (as a brake), but its quite noisy and fells very strange. If it's set to level -4 you're basically not going anywhere, at least not unless you're on a mountain. I don't think its connected to the regular brakes or brake levers at all (its set on user interface control on handlebar), someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Level 2 is what is programmed on my BIONX system when my rear brake lever is engaged. ALL BIONX system comes with a security alarm system and uses level 4 regenerative braking to lock the wheel when tripped.
I tried it once or actually by accident by leaving the bike unlocked outside the store. I activated the alarm and was only planning to be in the store for less than 5mins to grab a soda pop. When I was at the till paying the drink, I heard the alarm and sure enough somebody was about to ride my bike away, but he couldn't get it move pass 20 meters.
You don't want to depend on the alarm system by itself of course, but it's a nice addition nonetheless I now lock my bike up and engage the alarm.

 

[DahonElectric]

I'm definitely no expert on bionx, but from test riding, the regen braking is truly a brake, it grabs the wheel and slows it down. So using them at the same time would be like throttle and brake on a car or motorcycle. I'm sure there are other possibilities with regen in general, but for bionx, I think it's basically only good for long downhill. I don't see regen as the main eadvantage to bionx, rather the way the strain gauge senses pedal force and applies assistive power. The regen braking works well for downhill (as a brake), but its quite noisy and feels very strange. If it's set to level -4 you're basically not going anywhere, at least not unless you're on a mountain. I don't think its connected to the regular brakes or brake levers at all (its set on user interface control on handlebar), someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.

It's connected to the rear or front brake lever via a magnet/switch setup if you look closely underneath.

 

[dennis]

see link for details regarding the reed switch attached to the rear brake lever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNfyVBir4Rc&feature=related between 4:44 to 8:00.

I personally don't like to use the control panel G- settings for downhill runs, especially in traffic. I want to be able to speed up and slow down quickly when needed. I have the reed switch on the brake lever adjusted so when I pull it in partially it engages regen braking without the brake pads touching the rim. This way I get instantaneous regen when I want it and when I need to speed up, I can just release the brake lever.

The G- settings are good on bike paths with no traffic and can be used like a gym stationary bicycle trainer that adds resistance while you pedal.

 

[EMF]

I'm definitely no expert on bionx, ...

No worries! At work, when we come across people that consider themselves experts, we look at each other and say: "Run like the wind!" You and the others have been a big help.

Thanks everybody! I think I've got it. Looks like a BionX might be in my future. I'm using a bicycle built for two, so I thought the pedal sensing feature of this system would be ideal to make pedaling "smoother" or seem more natural to the riders, *fingers crossed* we'll see. But I've got a little bit of work to do to the bike first to get it ready.

 

[lighterbike]

Those are nice kits.. But heres the deal.. You pay over 10X the actual cost for the kit.

I have been buying those kits for $260 from Indonesia. Bionx has a 1 man european factory they built just for show. All the kits are made in indonesia then shipped throughout europe to have a few spokes installed for the made in europe sticker.

PM me and Ill send you the indonesian website with prices etc.

Sorry, I just hate seeing people get stung like this.

 

[dennis]

Those are nice kits.. But heres the deal.. You pay over 10X the actual cost for the kit.

I have been buying those kits for $260 from Indonesia. Bionx has a 1 man european factory they built just for show. All the kits are made in indonesia then shipped throughout europe to have a few spokes installed for the made in europe sticker.

PM me and Ill send you the indonesian website with prices etc.

Sorry, I just hate seeing people get stung like this.

lighterbike aka jboss. :wink: scam alert!

 

[dennis]

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5599&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

The topic above re higher gearing for electric bikes may be of interest to readers of this thread.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5581&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

Ultra capacitors, another interesting topic. See http://www.afstrinity.com/xh.htm and the youtube video explanation of the system is a must to watch.

If Bionx can incorporate ultra capacitors into their regenerative braking system and use the stored power in the ultra caps for starts, that would be the ultimate electric bike kit. I have noticed during regen, the LiMn battery can not absorb the energy fast enough and there seems to be electronics built in to the Bionx system to protect the LiMn battery from excessively high amp charging and more than 90% of the regen energy is dumped and wasted. On the other hand, ultra caps can absorb the regen energy almost instantaneously and would probably be able absorb more than 80% of the regen energy. The useful life of the battery pack combined with ultra caps would probably more than quadruple since ultra caps can be charged and discharged indefinitely. But then, they will be selling less battery packs. Hummm, don't know if that's something they want to incorporate into their kit, if the company is concerned about $$$$$$ profits.

 

[JDJ]

Hi guys. I have been reading your comments on BionX re-gen braking. I own 2 different BionX units and I am not sure that you guys have a full understanding of the system. No offense intended! The rear brake is equiped with a magnetic switch in the brake lever that "automatically" switches to re-gen every time you apply this brake, regardless of what level of assistance you are in. The harder you apply the brake, the greater the re-capture of energy to the battery. (look at the bars on the meter coming in from the left). You do indeed get it "both" ways and this is the purpose of the re-gen braking system. It let's you re-capture power every time you slow down or come to a stop. If you want to stop without touching brakes at all, simply thumb or finger touch the G- button and hold it for more than 2 seconds and you will jump from any level of assist into re-gen. (holding down A+ does the same in reverse!) On a steep downhill slope, progress thru G1 to G4 until you reach a level that is successfully holding you to the speed you feel comfortable with. Don't even move the pedals and on a good slope, just eyeball the re-charge energy going back into your battery. Other cyclists on the same slope with you will be squealing, screaming, and burning up brake pads and wondering how you can possibly be coasting at only 6 or 8 MPH, (or whatever you are happy at), and not even touching your brake levers. Of course you can perform the exact same function by staying in level A4 assist and just appling the rear brake, but why not let the motor do the work entirely and save your brake pads?

 

[hawaiioutdoors]

Aloha, My question: What is the difference between the Bionx PL350 HS and the Bionx PL500 HS. I sent Nyewheels the following message and got the following reply.
______________________________________________________________________
Nycewheels, Sales & Customer Service
Aloha, I read many excellent reviews regarding the customer-service of your bike shop. That is why I would like to do business with you.
I will be vacationing in California ( Disney Land) the begining of Oct. 2008. Could I purchase a Bionx PL 500 and have it sent to me at the hotel?

( PS. Hawaii treats bicycles and mopeds the same...Its the same license paid or upon purchase of the bike... but the Bionx PL500 HS still is only sold to California.)

Mahalo, VIK
_____________________________________________________________________________
REPLY
I’m sorry, we are going to be out of the PL500’s until next spring. You can, however, order the BionX PL350 and have the $100 high speed upgrade installed. It is, in my opinion, just as good.
http://nycewheels.com/bionxpl350-electricbike-motorkit.html
look at #4, tuning.
Regards, Tom

212-737-3078 / 800-692-3943
http://www.nycewheels.com cs1@nycewheels.com

 

[JDJ]

I think you will find that the main difference is the 350 has more tourque than the 500. This makes it better for places where you have to climb a lot of hills. The 500 simply sacrificed some tourque for higher speed that is allowed in California only so far. The 350 with the high speed adapter still won't quite match the 500 for top speed but it will serve youbetter if you need hill climbing power or their is a weight factor. (say over 190 to 250 lbs)

 

[hawaiioutdoors]

Aloha, Yes the BionX PL 350 HS has more torq then the BionX PL 500 HS...But..What does the 350 HS have that the regualr 350 doesn't?..Is it just a programable code?..What does the extra $100 buy me?...
Just as DahonElectric said,.. Its nice to have the extra speed. It limits the time you have to spend along narrow shoulder, fast moving traffic areas…I want to be happy with the kit I decide upon.

 

[DahonElectric]

Aloha, Yes the BionX PL 350 HS has more torq then the BionX PL 500 HS...But..What does the 350 HS have that the regualr 350 doesn't?..Is it just a programable code?..What does the extra $100 buy me?...
Just as DahonElectric said,.. Its nice to have the extra speed. It limits the time you have to spend along narrow shoulder, fast moving traffic areas…I want to be happy with the kit I decide upon.

It buys you a higher RPM motor. It's probably similar to a 20" HS version of the P-250 or PL-250. My Dahon has a P-250HS version, a high RPM motor which is needed to maintain a higher cruising speed because of the smaller wheel -- you need to turn more to achieve one revolution of the bigger wheel. And it's no slouch either. 5mph extra is not unusual on the flats and climbs hills like a mountain goat if you add some assistance, which you do. Apparently this HS version can't climb a steep or a decent hill by itself.
Luckily, my dealer sold me the setup at no additional charge and I'm glad I took it. It's so nice to blast through the nasty part of my commute at around 35-38km/h if I push it (that's as fast as I could go with my current gearing and pedal assistance unless I have a Schlump drive).

 

[dennis]

Aloha, My question: What is the difference between the Bionx PL350 HS and the Bionx PL500 HS. I sent Nyewheels the following message and got the following reply.
______________________________________________________________________
Nycewheels, Sales & Customer Service
Aloha, I read many excellent reviews regarding the customer-service of your bike shop. That is why I would like to do business with you.
I will be vacationing in California ( Disney Land) the begining of Oct. 2008. Could I purchase a Bionx PL 500 and have it sent to me at the hotel?

( PS. Hawaii treats bicycles and mopeds the same...Its the same license paid or upon purchase of the bike... but the Bionx PL500 HS still is only sold to California.)

Mahalo, VIK
_____________________________________________________________________________
REPLY
I’m sorry, we are going to be out of the PL500’s until next spring. You can, however, order the BionX PL350 and have the $100 high speed upgrade installed. It is, in my opinion, just as good.
http://nycewheels.com/bionxpl350-electricbike-motorkit.html
look at #4, tuning.
Regards, Tom

212-737-3078 / 800-692-3943
http://www.nycewheels.com cs1@nycewheels.com

I have only tested the PL350 and the PL500 HS. So here's my 2 cents. On a 20 inch rim, PL350 = 18 mph top speed on the flats and high torque for hills (high motor cogging when coasting), PL500HS = 26 mph top speed on the flats and moderate torque for hills (moderate motor cogging when coasting).

IMO, on a 20 inch rim, the 500W HS kit has the perfect balance of torque and speed. As you can see from some of my posted photos on this thread, I had no issues riding in hilly locations with either kit. As long as the entire set up with rider and bike does not weigh over 250 lbs and you are fairly fit, with a bit of pedaling, you should be able to conquer 18 miles of hills with one new fully charged 9ah lithium battery with ease. (NOTE: 500W kits are sold mounted on 26 inch rims only. I had to respoke the motor onto a 20 inch rim for my bike.)

Another point of interest is gearing. If you don't like to fake pedal, over sized gearing is required at speeds above 18 mph, especially when the kit is installed onto a 20 inch rim bike.

If you will be visiting DisneyLand in Anaheim, It may be worth a trip to http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_500_lithium_battery.htm in Laguna Beach and test ride the kit for yourself. The owner usually have kits installed for test rides on a 26 inch rim bike. You may want to call or e-mail him to confirm this.

 

[dennis]

Aloha, Yes the BionX PL 350 HS has more torq then the BionX PL 500 HS...But..What does the 350 HS have that the regualr 350 doesn't?..Is it just a programable code?..What does the extra $100 buy me?...
Just as DahonElectric said,.. Its nice to have the extra speed. It limits the time you have to spend along narrow shoulder, fast moving traffic areas…I want to be happy with the kit I decide upon.

http://www.jvbike.com posted this on Youtube. It may interest you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQpEfOOWvug They may be able to answer your question. note: Notice the fake pedaling in the video. He is just going through the motion of pedaling without adding any real power input to the wheels. The 20 inch bike's normal gearing can not keep up with the motor at those higher speeds.

 

[DahonElectric]

Aloha, My question: What is the difference between the Bionx PL350 HS and the Bionx PL500 HS. I sent Nyewheels the following message and got the following reply.
______________________________________________________________________
Nycewheels, Sales & Customer Service
Aloha, I read many excellent reviews regarding the customer-service of your bike shop. That is why I would like to do business with you.
I will be vacationing in California ( Disney Land) the begining of Oct. 2008. Could I purchase a Bionx PL 500 and have it sent to me at the hotel?

( PS. Hawaii treats bicycles and mopeds the same...Its the same license paid or upon purchase of the bike... but the Bionx PL500 HS still is only sold to California.)

Mahalo, VIK
_____________________________________________________________________________
REPLY
I’m sorry, we are going to be out of the PL500’s until next spring. You can, however, order the BionX PL350 and have the $100 high speed upgrade installed. It is, in my opinion, just as good.
http://nycewheels.com/bionxpl350-electricbike-motorkit.html
look at #4, tuning.
Regards, Tom

212-737-3078 / 800-692-3943
http://www.nycewheels.com cs1@nycewheels.com

I have only tested the PL350 and the PL500 HS. So here's my 2 cents. On a 20 inch rim, PL350 = 18 mph top speed on the flats and high torque for hills (high motor cogging when coasting), PL500HS = 26 mph top speed on the flats and moderate torque for hills (moderate motor cogging when coasting).

Dennis, since you and I have the same bike sans the Schlump drive, I find it fascinating that you said your PL-350 tops out at 18mph. Is this without pedal assistance? If this is the case, then I find it fascinating that my P-250 equipped Dahon, which is a 24V system, does also top out at 18mph, with the speed limiter function turned off. Even without it, it tops out at 18mph. I can easily pedal assist without too much work up to 20mph, a bit more work at 22mph and almost madly at work spinning to get close to 24mph. When I bought the kit, the owner of the store (JVbike) said I'll be getting a high speed motor instead of the regular one. I was a little confused at that time because I thought the kit for the 20" wheel is for the wheel itself right? I couldn't get a clear answer from him, but he said you will not go as fast with a regular setup, but you will like this setup..

Now seeing that your PL-350 kit tops out at 18mph for a 36V system tells me that my 250 version at 24V is definitely not the run of the mill kind either and I AM LIKING IT. He said I can plug in the 36v Lithium battery in the future to realize more speed. Yeah! I think in one of his Youtube demos, he used a 36v lithium batt on a 24v system to get more ommmph..

 

[dennis]

Dennis, since you and I have the same bike sans the Schlump drive, I find it fascinating that you said your PL-350 tops out at 18mph. Is this without pedal assistance? If this is the case, then I find it fascinating that my P-250 equipped Dahon, which is a 24V system, does also top out at 18mph, with the speed limiter function turned off. Even without it, it tops out at 18mph. I can easily pedal assist without too much work up to 20mph, a bit more work at 22mph and almost madly at work spinning to get close to 24mph. When I bought the kit, the owner of the store (JVbike) said I'll be getting a high speed motor instead of the regular one. I was a little confused at that time because I thought the kit for the 20" wheel is for the wheel itself right? I couldn't get a clear answer from him, but he said you will not go as fast with a regular setup, but you will like this setup..

Now seeing that your PL-350 kit tops out at 18mph for a 36V system tells me that my 250 version at 24V is definitely not the run of the mill kind either and I AM LIKING IT. He said I can plug in the 36v Lithium battery in the future to realize more speed. Yeah! I think in one of his Youtube demos, he used a 36v lithium batt on a 24v system to get more ommmph..

Yep, the PL350 is a high torque motor, so its throttle only top speed was only about 18 mph when the battery is fully charged. But it had gobs of torque, so much so that the back wheel worked out of the drop outs during one of my rides and damaged the wiring. At those slower speeds, I was able to pedal along with the PL350 motor with the stock Dahon gearing. But when I swiched to the PL500HS, I found it was necessary to install the Schlumpf's higher gearing in oder to pedal along with the motor without having to spin the pedals like a crazy banana throwing monkey.

Your high speed motor may be the same motor supplied in the PL500HS kit. The only difference may be just the battery voltage. There is a sticker on my 500W motor that reads as follows:
P500W
36V
RPM 480
No: 01-1847
The advantage of having a high speed motor is the lower motor cogging effect = less drag when pedaling without power or coasting. The disadvantage is less torque for hills, which is no big deal when you like to exercise and pedal with the motor.

I blogged about the PL350 awhile ago. The info may be of interest to you. Here it is: http://visforvoltage.org/blog-entry/202-dahon-mu-sl-folding-bicycle-bionx-pl350-kit