Blue Dream: Maxarya Ray 2 Semi Recumbent w/high eff mid drive

[neptronix]

I would have noticed if i put a 4mm indentation in the rim while working the tire. That would have required a hammer and a huge amount of force.

I wonder by bike suffers of @Cowardlyduck's perpetual rim issues.. the weird thing is, i have my rear tire at 60PSI.

 

[neptronix]

Okay, i did my test course with my bargain basement upright 26er with the tires both at 55psi and the front fork locked out... leaving me with a suspension seatpost as my only suspension.

Much smoother than the Maxarya and less challenging at certain parts like going off curbs, broken road surfaces, etc.

NVH factor about a 2 compared to the Maxarya. Night and day!

Going to effectively 21" wheels is not going to make large enough of a difference. There are places where Max's suspension easily bottoms out despite being set to very stiff during the course.

I think an extra 4 inches in the rear would make an impact on the frontend, where we need the most help.. but how we handle going off a curb, or a 6 inch divot ( for water flow ) cannot improve without much larger wheels.

Another thing is.. i found out the battery pushed all the way to the front is what's responsible for this uncertainty in the front wheel

Should i just get a really long LWB? Would i be happier with the NVH?

Candidates:

Linear Limo LR ( with a front suspension fork, because it looks like i can)


Carver TI Glide ( with rear tire tallness maxed out.. has 26ers )



I've read that LWBs don't need serious suspension since body weight is better centered.... and handling is better due to the wheelbase.. true?

recumbents.com has this to say:

 

[Papa]

i found out the battery pushed all the way to the front is what's responsible for this uncertainty in the front wheel

Explain please.


Found this today: Blackfoot, Idaho...

https://eastidaho.craigslist.org/bik/d/moreland-wheel-recumbant-bike/7796489146.html

The two most popular LWB 'bents are...
Easy Racer's Tour Easy (TE)
Rans Stratus (available in 26/26 XP) Rand recumbent bike | eBay

 

[Papa]

Here ya go Chief...

Rans V3 LWB frameset (ebay)

2009 Rans V3 Steel Frameset | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 2009 Rans V3 Steel Frameset at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[PaPaSteve]

Personally prefer the 20" front wheel as it allows quicker steering movement, lower crank height, shorter overall etc.
The Rans frameset is a good deal and is a known and loved model.
Can swap the front wheel and fork to 20"

This one is sturdy and a decent handler.

Long Wheel Base

Ideal for touring, commuting and long recreational rides, they offer remarkable handling at any speed. With a relatively high seat, lots of adjustability and a low bottom bracket give you an pleasant sense of stability and control.

sunseeker.bike

I'm changing the front wheel to 20" on this one.
Parts on order.
Note how far the rear wheel is behind the seat.

 

[neptronix]

Explain please.

Yeah.. when installed in the most frontward position possible, the battery has some small ( ~4mm ) side to side motion in itself.. it seems like it wants to steer the bike here and there while riding, i have to make small counter corrections constantly.

The front battery is a plus for NVH, a negative for cornering.
Take the battery off and we don't have that problem.

Makes me think the center of gravity of the battery is too high and it's causing the frontend to wag.
It would be better placed below the tube so it's closer to the center of the axle, but that would involve some complex fabrication.
There is no other place to position it, putting it on the rear is totally out.

ok, re bikes...

- Rans v3 looks good but does it need rare, hard to find parts?
- Sunseeker - never liked the aesthetic of their bikes and they seem to only come in one size ( possibly too small ), chromoly is a big plus, but ruled them out a long time ago.
- Hyper insight looks smaller and less good than existing bike.


I like the Linear Limo because it can fold and has a front fork angle as such that a front suspension fork would actually do something.
I like the Carver TI because Titanium is close to chromoly in compliance, it puts me way forward of the rear wheel, and it accepts a big front wheel. I don't like it because there's zero reviews on it like the Maxarya, therefore it'd be another gamble.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Wide, underseat handlebars soak up a fair bit of aero efficiency and leaves your hands vulnerable in tight spaces.
Rans frame kit looks mostly complete other than the seat and mounts.
Rans company changed hands to :

PHOENIX BIKE WRX

PHOENIX BIKE WRX

phoenixbikewrx.com

Take the recumbent.com chart with a grain of salt as the speed columns are subjective and not measured facts.
Details like handlebar width can change the facts by a significant amount.

FYI
1) handlebar width on my Pursuit model is 17" . . . narrower than my shoulders
2) resource for custom recumbent work / parts

Recycled Recumbents!

BUILD YOUR OWN! PARTS FOR SALE! (Frames...Kits) THE SHOWROOM!! (for complete bikes)

sites.google.com

 

[neptronix]

I heard about phoenix works.

Their website seems to insinuate they mostly sell these crank forward uprights.. there's no product pages for any new recumbents.
The single recumbent they feature on the page is the phoenix 700, which has an order form, but no webpage describing the product. There is a link to a long ramble about it.

Yes they still sell recumbent parts but it looks like recumbents are not what they're supporting/building in the future.

I see what you mean about under-seat steering. Looks cool, but practicality is compromised, maybe some hand protection could be added. Lower aero kinda sucks. I think i'm ready to trade ride quality and good cornering for aero though.

Bachettas look neat, but.. short wheelbase with legs hanging out too far... never really liked SWB & how they ride.

 

[Papa]

Yeah.. when installed in the most frontward position possible, the battery has some small ( ~4mm ) side to side motion in itself.. it seems like it wants to steer the bike here and there while riding, i have to make small counter corrections constantly.

Has nothing to do with the additional 10-15 lb mass added forward to the front end - your weight distribution numbers confirm it. Any, and all components, ect. needs to be rigidly secured. Inflate your front tire to no more than 70% of manufactures' maximum. It's also a bitch to diagnose problems when you're riding a lose & sloppy POS suspension fork.

The front battery is a plus for NVH, a negative for cornering.
Take the battery off and we don't have that problem.

What is "NVH"?
Again.... I strongly urge you to scrap your existing front springer fork ASAP (it's NOT a true suspension fork if it lacks damping). In fact, I'd be more inclined to ride a rigid chro-mo fork... than that POS.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Noise, Vibration, and Harshness (NVH)

A couple examples of simple, solid, low cost battery mounting ideas.
One uses bandsaw cut plastic blocks and heavy duty plastic cable straps.
The other is table saw cut wood and hose clamps.
Double side tape between battery and bike frame.

 

[Zambam]

Great ideas on the battery mount! I keep seasoned fruit tree branches around (fruit tress are all hardwood) from pruning and they've come in handy in many situations. One was to make a shaped spacer between my bottle battery and the down tube.

How's that PVC pipe tape wrap compared to the blue shrink wrap in terms of keeping the water out and ease of application?

 

[PaPaSteve]

How's that PVC pipe tape wrap compared to the blue shrink wrap in terms of keeping the water out and ease of application?

Battery came from Luna with a layer of black shrink wrap.
PVC tape was used to help keep things in place during the installation process.
Clean up after a ride tends to make me rain adverse with the bikes.
Not commuting to work anymore so why be on the road in the wet ?
Don't mind a walk in the rain though.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Quality, adjustable forks for 20" wheels don't seem to be available.
So what other solution can be discovered ?
How about a mod where an adjustable rear shock is adapted between the bridge on the lower sliders to a custom mount on the fork crown.
Remove the stock fork spring.
Or some other such idea ?

 

[neptronix]

Re battery mounting.. all side to side flex is present in the battery cradle to battery connection itself.
The tiny effect is probably exaggerated by the high and forward weight.
I feel this uncertain steering on an upright bike when i have >2lbs of stuff in a front bar mounted to the handlebars. Wind worsens it.

I don't feel this with the battery sitting loose in a triangle bag of an upright.
..so the right thing to do for cornering is to move the battery backwards and make the NVH a little worse.

Again.... I strongly urge you to scrap your existing front springer fork ASAP (it's NOT a true suspension fork if it lacks damping). In fact, I'd be more inclined to ride a rigid chro-mo fork... than that POS.

It's actually an air fork. 25mm stanchions and lots of stiction though.
The entire travel does get used. And the front is still bumpy.
Ride quality on pedal power with the aluminum fork was totally unacceptable. I don't think i would be happy with the most ideal chromoly fork that could ever be designed.

Here's the highest quality one i can get, and it has another 6mm of offset versus mine ( good )

WHEEL SIZE: 20'', 24'' TRAVEL(MM): 60mm（20'',24''), 80''(24'') STEERER: 1-1/8" or 1.5'' Tapered Aluminum/Steel AXLE: 9*100mm SPRING: AIR/COIL FORK OFFSET: 45mm UPPER TUBE TYPE 30mm Aluminum/Steel MAX TIRE WIDTH (MM) 63mm MINIMUM ROTOR SIZE 160mm E-BIKE APPROVED E-bike Approved COLOR (FS) Matte black, Gloss black AXLE TO CROWN: 420mm(80mm travel),360mm(60mm travel) PITCH: 125 LOWER: Magnesium

Is it really worth the few % improvement..

Honestly, i'm calling Maxarya next week and asking them if they can make me either a longer frame or a longer swingarm.
Then we talk to papasteve.
If these things fail, the bike gets sold to a shorter person.

The bike will be torn apart today either way, my upright will inherit the mid drive.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Seams like there is 3 possible sources of noise in the system to check before moving on :
1) loose battery . . . strap it down, duct tape ~ tie wraps ~ cords ?
2) out of balance wheel . . . check and balance if needed.
3) fork slider stiction . . . disassemble, inspect, lube the sliders.

To verify if the problem is a weight balance issue, ballast could be securely added as a test.

 

[Warren]

Bachettas look neat, but.. short wheelbase with legs hanging out too far... never really liked SWB & how they ride.

They make a LWB too.

Bacchetta Bella Custom Recumbent Bicycle for smooth riding

The Bacchetta Bella long wheelbase classic is easy to ride and features the best components. You expect bespoke attention from Bacchetta, and the Bella delivers.

bacchettabikes.com

I liked the Cafe best, but it is no longer made.

Cafe

For many people who are interested in what recumbents have to offer, speed is not the determining factor. Beginners are generally concerned with how easy to ride, safe, and affordable a recumbent bicycle is. The Cafe is the perfect option for many new bent riders. Designed from the ground up for...

bacchettabikes.com

 

[Papa]

I liked the Cafe best

Ditto

 

[neptronix]

Seams like there is 3 possible sources of noise in the system to check before moving on :
1) loose battery . . . strap it down, duct tape ~ tie wraps ~ cords ?

NVH problems are pretty serious with the battery off and have been a huge issue since the beginning. NVH improves slightly when battery is placed on. Position and the small amount of motion in the battery cradle are probably to blame.

2) out of balance wheel . . . check and balance if needed.

Nope.. in fact the front tire was professionally fitted.. it's super true.
Rear's fine.
Judder is a response to really bad road surface and not constant.

3) fork slider stiction . . . disassemble, inspect, lube the sliders.

Same problem with this fork since when it was brand new. Not a wear issue.

To verify if the problem is a weight balance issue, ballast could be securely added as a test.

I think the difference in NVH with the battery on proves it.. with mount, about 13lbs.

Visualize where my torso is when sitting on this.. i'm 6 feet tall.. my shoulders and head sit behind the axle.. but if you take the average.. i'm not very far from the rear axle.

IE it's bad!

Cannondale rode like a dream despite only putting me 1 inch further.

For reference on what's causing judder; here's what an average road surface out here looks like.



We also have tons of 1-1.5 inch lips on curbs, which are a very big issue for 16 inch wheels and unpleasant on 20 inch wheels. You don't just casually go over those at speed.

If i can't get this bike lengthened, i'm out.. and i'll probably buy an upright 29er to help wash the taste out of my mouth!

 

[PaPaSteve]

Overall . . . your vibe is "I'm done with this experiment"
That's OK too.
Please allow me to note, mounting a tire and balancing a wheel are different tasks with different results.
The mention of fork "stiction" brought back memories of my first mini bike, a Honda QA50.
It had a very simple fork design that behaved different by changing the lube on the sliders.
I do agree the rear wheel needs to move back . . .
Happy to help with that task if that's what you decide.
Best regards
Steve

 

[99t4]

For reference on what's causing judder; here's what an average road surface out here looks like.

View attachment 361746

We also have tons of 1-1.5 inch lips on curbs, which are a very big issue for 16 inch wheels and unpleasant on 20 inch wheels. You don't just casually go over those at speed.

If i can't get this bike lengthened, i'm out.. and i'll probably buy an upright 29er to help wash the taste out of my mouth!

Strongly agree that that terrain is extremely unfriendly to sub-26" wheels, especially on the front wheel.

My much preferred setup currently is 26" DH FS with large volume (2.35") tires. The key is the large volume tires combined with long travel suspension. Anything else at over 15 MPH on highly irregular road surfaces like this is too dangerous and uncomfortable.

My first ebike was a 29" hardtail. Almost as good NVH as the 26" DH FS. My opinion: 29" is only marginally better than 26" as far as smoothing out potholes, railroad tracks, curb lips, and frost-heaved sections.


I have accumulated many miles on

 

[neptronix]

Overall . . . your vibe is "I'm done with this experiment"
That's OK too.

It's more like a condition at which i must give up.. after 4 years of trying to make this bike work.. and a lot of money.

Please allow me to note, mounting a tire and balancing a wheel are different tasks with different results.

True but on smooth roads i don't have any wobbling at all. If i had a balance issue, i'd notice that.

The mention of fork "stiction" brought back memories of my first mini bike, a Honda QA50.
It had a very simple fork design that behaved different by changing the lube on the sliders.

I think the fork angle and the 25.4mm stanchions are both working against me. With forks, the cheaper and the smaller the diameter, the more stiction. I hesitate to go with a 30mm stanchion fork because it means an even wider pedaling stance & think it won't make significant improvement.

A different oil might is worth a try but how much difference would that make?.

Happy to help with that task if that's what you decide.
Best regards
Steve

Thanks, Maxarya is not answering my calls so far.. will report back on the decision later

 

[Papa]

Strongly agree that that terrain is extremely unfriendly to sub-26" wheels,....

Perhaps,

The 20x2.35 Vee Rubber I currently run on my trikes, are nearly identical diameter as the 175R13 tires on my '88 Toyota (less than 1/4"). While the Vees are 1/3 the width, they also carry a microfraction of the mass. I do see an occasional pot hole during spring thaw, but the road workers are intelligent enough to encircle them with orange paint, so avoidance is easy. But my primary bitch is the f**king chip seal... and the 20x2.35's handle it just peachy.

As always... YMMV

 

[neptronix]

Imagine a place where chip seal is everywhere, and only potholes deeper than 1 inch get fixed, pavement is warped, sometimes at funny angles, 1-2 inch lips to enter a driveway, concrete slabs on the sidewalk at all kinds of angles leaving 1-1.5 inches of lip randomly ( boy i'd hate to be in a wheelchair out here )

I had a miserable time driving out here with 14 inch wheels because the screwed up roads would not only rattle the hell out of the car but also steer it.

A very light car with lightened rims and 16 inch tires is basically the border of acceptable ride quality out here. Most people are driving SUVs.

 

[Chalo]

Imagine a place where chip seal is everywhere, and only potholes deeper than 1 inch get fixed, pavement is warped, sometimes at funny angles, 1-2 inch lips to enter a driveway, concrete slabs on the sidewalk at all kinds of angles leaving 1-1.5 inches of lip randomly ( boy i'd hate to be in a wheelchair out here )

I had a miserable time driving out here with 14 inch wheels because the screwed up roads would not only rattle the hell out of the car but also steer it.

A very light car with lightened rims and 16 inch tires is basically the border of acceptable ride quality out here. Most people are driving SUVs.

Yay terrible land use and urban planning! Let's keep building suburban sprawl that doesn't pay for its own maintenance, let alone contribute to the general welfare.

Let's go, real city dwellers. The mass of suburban, exurban, and rural deadbeats is counting on you to bleed dry for their temporary convenience!

 

[The Toecutter]

Let's go, real city dwellers. The mass of suburban, exurban, and rural deadbeats is counting on you to bleed dry for their temporary convenience!

Cities need to be built for everyone to live in and have space to grow their own food and live their lives with minimal interference from others, and without those residing within them being indebted by financial institutions, not just places for rich people to thrive off of what these cities generate as they currently are. Unfortunately, with the current mal-distribution of resources in this so-called "society", most cities are open-air prisons and labor camps of sorts for the majority of people dwelling in one, while being playgrounds and places of opportunity for the most well off, and have generally been such since they've existed for thousands of years before cars. Suburbs contain the worst traits or both urban and rural areas, without the benefits of either, car dependence being built into the model.

A practical recumbent pedal-electric hybrid vehicle to be used as a car substitute needs to be usable at flow-of-traffic speeds in both rural and urban environments, over bad roads, with stability and ease of control, without critical components failing from normal use. It is for this reason that OP can't go wrong with a well-built full-suspension trike with a DIY faring. Consider an HP Velotechnik FS or a Steintrikes Mad Max as a donor. Operate it in a manner that doesn't scream "illegal" and you're probably not going to have issues with police. I'd recommend a full-suspension recumbent quad instead, but that 4th wheel imposes unwanted legal issues with regard to operation on public roads in most of the USA.

If 2-wheels is non-negotiable, I'd go with a full-suspension lowracer with a body shell and big, heavy DOT wheels, holes cut in the floor for your feet to reach the ground, and a very tall LED antenna.