bmc hub 600w is Toast

shinyballs

1 kW
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
327
Location
Pacific NW
Last week went riding for 18 miles, the last 5 miles ran at 20A continuously, peaking at 27A. Motor was too hot to touch. Charged for an hour and then when ready to go, motor will no longer run... intermittently no response from throttle or just a grinding sound from the motor. Wasn't able to check for error codes, wires, etc. cause it's already dark and didn't bring any tools.

Following day, did a no-load test and the motor seems ok. Went for a road test and there is a knocking sound inside. Kind of like a small hammer is hitting the case from the inside. The sound interval progresses as speed increases and this keeps getting louder on every ride.

It seems this motor cannot tolerate high temperatures for too long especially at that time, the ambient temperature is 100F. So far has only 500 miles on the motor.

setup:
bmc 600w speed version
73v, 25A(current limited)
Kelly 72101
 
Shiny, your signature says that you are running at 73 volts. Are we to understand that you were running 20 amps at 73 volts continuously? Isn't that over 1,400 watts? Or was this with a different battery?
 
Who knows? Nicobie is running 1500 watts continuous with bursts to 2400 with no problems so far.
 
Sure sounds to me like that the planet gears are of thermoplastic, such as nylon,

and the heat caused some of the teeth to partially melt, deform, at shut-down time.

And the knock you hear now is that of one or more "clubbed" teeth gnashing the soft steel ring gear.

Cure: it may "fix itself" to a small extent. OR it may (I predict, I do not KNOW), strip all remaining teeth some day soon or far away, without the least prior warning.


Common sense: thermosetting plastics, other than those made for very high temperatures,
are not going to be ideal for geared hub motors.

Yet, there are plastics, thermosetting (google plastics, thermosetting) that can take 300F engine oil:
The well-beloved, time tested Honda 2000EU home/rv emergency power generator has a half time gear (cam gear, of a white, hard plastic, that takes the guff: MUCH more severe service than in your geared hub motor. The Honda is a "one lunger" as we say in the trade, and it, perforce, WHAMS and BAMS the silent, helical teeth of the cam gear at every explosive impulse.
Life span in running hours at full, electrical load? Apparently ten thousand hours, as timed by an engine hour meter.

WE SHOULD NOT be suffering planet gear failures, period.
There are super-duty plastics, and even INDESTRUCTABLE composites, phenolic-family, laminated fabric-impregnated, that can be hobbed and cut, just like cast iron or steel, but which will run nearly dead silent, and never "peanut butter due to excess heat in a hub motor. They would last for the life of ten burnt motors and more.

How hot is hot? 150F is about the limit of what a human hand can take, holding a hot plate, for instance.
Bright aluminum or dull aluminum or black anodized (black throws off heat!) motor casing, too hot to touch:
drop a drop of water on the hot motor. Does the water boil?
Then you can be sure that the internals have much gotten hotter yet than 100C!

Q: What is the softening point of nylon? I could google for the answer. It melts at a relatively low temperature,
first becoming like chewing gum, then turning to thick liquid, then, if hotter (a match flame), it actually will burn and sustain flame
(try this with some nylon twine sometime? Heat-sealing the ends of nylon, polylon, etc, twine, rope, stops unraveling from happening.

Heat injury to these materials, the very same CLASS of plastic (so many kinds there are, too!), thermosetting,
if they be precision molded gears = DEATH, not P.B. & J. sammiches :wink:

Non-contact "IR" thermometers, those point and shoot pistol-looking things, are very useful,
but cannot work reliably if aimed at anything silver in color.

hth, though, I talk too much. I don't mean to be a blowhard;
I just can't sit on my hands when I see what appears to be the obvious, and no sure answers to questions asked.

You understand why now, they, the makers, nearly all use thermosetting plastics? Because they are ready to roll, right from the mold.
This lessens cost of manufacture greatly.

A great company like HONDA, can and does engineer/choose thermoset plastic of such a grade of heat tolerance and fatigue resistance,
that, as said: you will get thousands and thousands of service hours from your whisper-quite, petrol-sniffing, Honda 2000EU.
Of course, I have one for years now. It starts right up every time. I use it several times per year. It will outlive me by decades.
Quality is all in the maker's name, goodwill, know-how and PRACTICAL RESULTS. Honda is not a boiler-room workshop operation.
So take a clue? Demand quality and thou shalst receive quality.

Five years from now, there will be NO "peanut buttered plastic gears in ebikes, ever again.
Quality does count, DUH, says this Curly! That's why, poor as I am, I bought, through Justin, HIS OWN SPECIFIED eZee motor kit,
made by the best-reputationed maker of ebike parts in China.
It is not perfect. It is amazingly good. I have yet to hear of an eZee motor's catastrophic failure, whilst running within or near its published design limits (450W continuous).
 
He hasn't opened it up yet. Let's not jump to conclusions.

I do know for a fact that the green gears are stronger than the white ones. My white ones lasted for about six months with gingerly throttle control, and my green ones are still holding up with more WOT. We'll see.
 
i fear Reid is correct in his prediction of mashed gears, the knocking sound is indicitive of mangled gear teeth, it's a surprisingly loud knocking in my experience.
If it is the case shinyballs just get yourself some steel gears and be done, the noise difference is negligable.

D
 
Sounds like a ride designed by a feind specifically to melt down a motor. Welcome to the fried my motor club. My personal best was a heinzmann I toasted less than 24 hours after I opened the box. Overvolters need thermometers.
 
WonderProfessor said:
Shiny, your signature says that you are running at 73 volts. Are we to understand that you were running 20 amps at 73 volts continuously? Isn't that over 1,400 watts? Or was this with a different battery?

signature :? I'm not aware of having one... I changed my batts to K2s 3.3v 3.2Ah at 3c continuous discharge rate. Realistically it is about 2.8Ah, 2c - sags too much when being discharged at 3c. It has similar specs with ecitypower's 26650 cell, I guess both are built by the same factory and just rebadged. Since my pack is built as 5p 22s, I don't need a higher discharge rate cell(a123) and the K2 is more than enough for the bmc. With this higher capacity pack my range has significantly increased.

At time of failure, my CA was not attached and only used my analog meter. Found out later that its off by 3-4A compared to the CA. So I'm actually discharging 24A continuously (1,700 watts).

nicobie said:
snowranger said:
Who knows? Nicobie is running 1500 watts continuous with bursts to 2400 with no problems so far.

I should add that I live on the coast and the temps are rarely over 80*f.
Nick

Your welcome to come here in Central CA and try yours if it cooks at our 110F highs heat wave weather.

deecanio said:
i fear Reid is correct in his prediction of mashed gears, the knocking sound is indicitive of mangled gear teeth, it's a surprisingly loud knocking in my experience.
If it is the case shinyballs just get yourself some steel gears and be done, the noise difference is negligable.

D
What kind of lubrication is used when running all steel gears?
 
No problemo WonderProfessor.
Reid, thanks for showing some glimmer of hope but unfortunately, it didn't "fix itself".

Rode the bike for another 190 miles. "Knock, knock" sound was replaced by a load groaning moan and then an intermittent "put, put, put".

Motor is now dead.

following are some observations:
- ambient temp: 95F
- motor case temp: 130F
- last 15 miles run, max wattage is 700w decreasing to 200w - at FULL Throttle
- no flashing error codes in Controller
- batt cells voltage range: 3.25 - 3.30v
 
It's time to open that sucker up and take pictures.
 
you shoulda stopped when it first started making noise. your magnets delaminated from the hub, and if you had stopped then you coulda glued them back in place, now they are all broken and cannot be replaced so the motor is now ruined. not toast since the windings are still good, but the magnets are now all broken inside.

too bad.
 
Got a pic, more to come... The gears were not worn out at all, there are rub marks on the motor housing indicated by the red arrows. The marks are possibly caused by the gear assembly slipping and then rotating in a slanting angle. This is probably the source of the knocking sound. I have to look closely at the gear assembly to see what area its rubbing. What do you think caused the slippage?
Before opening the case, I did a no-load test and Kelly showed an error message of "2,1 = Motor fails to start". Again, this could be caused by the gears getting stuck.Copy of HPIM0610.jpg
 
Very interesting. Mabye the gears got loose at the hubs?

Re some of the comments on continuous watts. Some guys ride a mile at 1500 watts and call that continuous. It is sort of, but it doesn't compare to 10 or more miles of it, or 2000 feet of vertical climb of it, which is more what I would consider continuous. To me continuous is something that drians a 20 ah battery.

Motors can take a lot of heat for a few minuites, but extend that heating for a full hour or more, and the motor heat will reach equilibrium, where the motor has reached its balance between it's ability to shed the heat and it's ability to make it. What temp that is, is the continuous use temperature. If that temp is over 170-180 f measured inside the hub, I'd say thats a problem eventually if not immediately. Weather greatly affects the equilibrium temperature since a bigger differential between the motor temp of 150 and the air temp increases the rate of motor air cooling. Very low humidity, below 5% affects air cooling a lot also.

FWIW the equilibrium temperature of my aotema this summer has been around 165 F for a 15 mile ride in 100F, and 800 feet vertical gain. 36v battery and 22 amp controller, full throttle. I'd think that in the future, for long rides in high temp, keeping the speed closer to 20-25 mph would keep the motor ok.
 
shinyballs said:
Got a pic, more to come... The gears were not worn out at all, there are rub marks on the motor housing indicated by the red arrows.
Are those holes "stock"? Odd that the rubbing just happened to be in the same area as the holes. Could they have weakened the houseing, causing it to bow out a little in that area?

dogman said:
Very low humidity, below 5% affects air cooling a lot also.
I'm not familiar with this... water does have a much higher specific heat than air, but it's in such small quantities in air as water vapor that the additional specific heat of water is usually ignored during heat transfer calculations. Is there some other effect going on that I'm not aware of?
 
Looks like the holes are to balance the rotor.
You can see a scrape mark on the rotor spokes. It's hitting something.

You should be able to see marks on the cover where it's hitting.

Seems like a washer compressed, or possibly a bearing failed allowing the rotor to shift. Could also be a press fit that came loose somewhere.
 
On the dry air thing, I only know the old hippie wisdom from driving bugs and VW vans in the New Mexico desert. Usually they would vapor lock after about 2 hours of driving in 100F weather, but in June you'd tend to get vapor locked in about 45 minuites. In June in NM, humidity can be below 5%, but in July and August, it's more likely to never get below 15%. We all learned to carry an old windex bottle so we could pull over when the van started sputtering, and 5 minuites of squirting into the fan of the running engine would cool the engine dramatically. This never had to be done if the humidity was higher unless you were traveling cross country. For a long trip you'd drive at night, or stop for a beer in each town, about an hour between each beer.

I suppose it's not something hugely investigated by engineers since so few places on earth have humidity that low very much. Even here, it tends to be over 10% for most of the year. Air doesn't cool much, but just a few water molecules in the air can transfer a lot of heat compared to the majority of the air molecules that are nitrogen.
 
dogman said:
In June in NM, humidity can be below 5%, but in July and August, it's more likely to never get below 15%. We all learned to carry an old windex bottle so we could pull over when the van started sputtering, and 5 minuites of squirting into the fan of the running engine would cool the engine dramatically.
Can't explain the June vs. Jul/Aug issue (unless the gas stations hadn't yet switched to their "summer" fuel). But the water bottle part is most certainly due to the evaporative cooling of the water (which can be substantial), rather than differences in specific heat of humid vs. dry air. Sorry to take it off topic... this is getting into my field, so I was just curious. :oops:
 
That motor looks pretty well designed. If it didn't have the metal cage around it and a bearing failed, well...........! If it is a bearing its an easy fix. If not well......... Could you show the gears in a photo?
otherDoc
 
Powered the motor with no drive train attached. Very fast rpm, can only maintain up to 50% throttle cause my mock-up plastic stand :oops: can't handle the vibration and also blew my 3A fuse when at WOT. It has a high-pitched sound but not loud. I can say the electrical part of the motor is ok.

Most likely the problem is in the axle which was grinded near the gear as shown by the arrow in the pic. There's also some marks in the shim(not shown in pic) which look like its been sanded. This caused the attached gear/clutch assembly to loosen and then subsequently keeps hitting the housing. Now waiting response from dealer for a replacement axle & extra shims.

The big question is what caused this failure?
Manufacturing defect? design flaw? merely overloaded?
Since this thing has zero technical documentation, not even a blow-up diagram of the parts... I leave it to the experts here for answers :wink:
 

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One guess is there is some bearing or something inside the rotor case that has gone bad or an outer cover bearing went bad. Either way this extra play and wobble allowed the sun gear to intermittently rub against the thin spacer and wear it and the axle down. Eventually the outside hub case and rotor case got close enough to rub and stop all movement. Another possibility is that the build tolerances were so bad that the motor rotor had a wobble in the first place.
 
I suspect the rotor bearing is failing due to excessive rotor runout or poor bearing quality:
  • The axle has no wear under the planet carrier, so that's not shifting around.
    The woodruff-key and snap-ring grooves have no wear, so no force from the end of the axle (like overtightened nuts) is pushing them into the rotor.
    The rotor vibrates at 50% throttle.
    That rotor had a lot of drilling to balance in the first place.

Even if the bearing & rotor can be replaced, a new thrust washer between the sun and planet carrier will have too much radial play. Maybe a washer/spacer could be attached to the planet carrier to keep the rotor from getting too close.
 
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