BMC V3 -- Infineon Build

[Muad'dib]

At last, my ebike has come together. I got turned on to ebikes a couple of months ago by an engineer friend who made an electric tricycle for his Masters degree project at UC Davis. Much to my wife's dismay, it has become a passion and I have been spending A LOT of time on this forum researching and figuring out the basic lingo of the hobby. Thanks to all who have patiently answered my newb queries. The bike below is a starter bike, I know it ain't elegant, but it works.

Battery:
My real battery pack will be 20amp hours of Headway cells, whenever they end up coming, waiting waiting along with the other group buy folks. I decided to get myself 5ah of Lipo (Turnigy, from Hobbycity.com, 3 packs of 5s1p) to play with until the Headways come. I wired the 3 packs in series for a "48v" pack of 15s1p Lipo cells.

Controller:
Infineon 48v 50amp from ecrazyman@gmail.com. Cheap, good reputation, came very quickly via UPS. As a newb, I find it hard to understand that this thing comes with absolutely zero instructions. Luckily I have this forum where everything about that controller has been explained over and over. Took my dad and I awhile to figure out that mating same colored wires does not work for any of the harnesses! After some worrying about whether there was something wrong with the motor, I found the right sequence posted on the forum:

Motor wires
Blue -> blue
Yel -> Green
Green -> Yel

Halls
Red -> Red
Blk -> Blk
Green -> Yel
Blue -> Blue
Yel -> Green

Motor:

I researched all the major hub motors and non-hub creations for a long time and decided to try the new BMC "1000w" geared motor. I live in a hilly area, so the geared motors appealed to me and I could find little if any bad stories about BMC motors in general. The gears used to be nylon which they say would wear sooner, but now that are apparently a composite material that is better.

Desired Speed:

I wanted a bike that could keep up with traffic so I was aiming for something that could do 40mph whether I actually went that fast most of the time or not. The 600w BMC is said to max out around 35mph which is close to what I wanted, but I thought that it is better to get the more powerful motor and not use it than be stuck with a slower one. I am 220lbs, so I also wondered if the 35mph figures were with 150lb guys riding or what.

Preliminary Results:

Got it running this morning and boy was it fun! The motor didn't really feel alive until I got up some speed, like 10mph or so, but then it kicked in and accelerated very quickly. Maybe this sluggishness in the low speed has more to do with the controller though. I don't think it was made with the soft-start feature that is now coming out for Infineons. It bogged down a bit on the steeper parts of the hill near where I started. On another hill where I had some space to accelerate before hitting the hill, it zoomed right up it like a car. Later today I did a speed test with my friend following behind in a car. The only straight road near my place has an ever so slight upward incline, wouldn't really notice in a car, but still on that he said I was going around 34 mph. Not too shabby.

UNFORTUNATELY, after that, the motor cut out all of a sudden. I stopped and checked everything. All wires still connected, motor cool to the touch, batteries cool to the touch, controller warm. It was warm too earlier in the day after only a minute of riding. I didn't think it could have burned, it would be hot right? But after testing everything else, I opened it up and it did indeed burn. I'll be contacting Keywin and hopefully he will get another out to me. This controller should have been plenty up to powering this motor, so some kind of shoddy assembly I guess. I'm posting the burn pictures too. The top of the board is fine, only one spot on the bottom burned.

All in all I'm pretty disappointed that this happened.

 

[snowranger]

Did you determine the no load current before putting the wheel to the road? There are some combinations that seem to work, but are not actually the right ones on the road. My BMC-infineon combo does switch the yellow and green wires though.

 

[Muad'dib]

Did you determine the no load current before putting the wheel to the road? There are some combinations that seem to work, but are not actually the right ones on the road. My BMC-infineon combo does switch the yellow and green wires though.

No, I didn't test that. I don't know how to. Very odd that if these things are so particular none of the vendors are giving direction.

 

[snowranger]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484#p81888

 

[Muad'dib]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484#p81888

Thanks, still not convinced this was my fault, but would have been best to run the tests recommended there for sure. To my credit, I did follow the same wiring colors as you and a couple of others for this motor brand and controller. If the same manufacturer changes their wire color between models or individual motors can they really say damaged goods is not their fault? Most consumers will not have the equipment, knowledge, and skills to test all 36 possible combinations!

 

[snowranger]

Me neither. It's just one thing to check whenever you are putting something together that does not come together in a kit. There are some people here running the V3 motor, and can get you more specific info.

 

[Hyena]

I wired the 3 packs in parallel for a "48v" pack of 15s1p Lipo cells.

15S lipo will actually be 63v hot off the charge and settle down to around 60v. My 48v controller has fets and caps only rated to 63v, so if yours are the same you might have killed one of those ? (the caps look to be ok though)

 

[dscline]

I decided to get myself 5ah of Lipo (Turnigy, from Hobbycity.com, 3 packs of 5s1p) to play with until the Headways come. I wired the 3 packs in parallel for a "48v" pack of 15s1p Lipo cells.

I'm assuming you mean series, not parallel? 3 packs in parallel would be a 5s3p pack, which would be a nominal 18.5v 15ah. 3 packs in series would be nominal 55.5v 5ah.

 

[Muad'dib]

I decided to get myself 5ah of Lipo (Turnigy, from Hobbycity.com, 3 packs of 5s1p) to play with until the Headways come. I wired the 3 packs in parallel for a "48v" pack of 15s1p Lipo cells.

I'm assuming you mean series, not parallel? 3 packs in parallel would be a 5s3p pack, which would be a nominal 18.5v 15ah. 3 packs in series would be nominal 55.5v 5ah.

Oops, yes, series of course!

 

[Muad'dib]

I wired the 3 packs in parallel for a "48v" pack of 15s1p Lipo cells.

15S lipo will actually be 63v hot off the charge and settle down to around 60v. My 48v controller has fets and caps only rated to 63v, so if yours are the same you might have killed one of those ? (the caps look to be ok though)

Hmm, I guess that is a possibility too. I don't know the max rating for the controller, he said it was build on the architecture of a 72v controller and it had 12 fets so I would have thought that was ok. My mind was on LiFePO when I picked out the battery packs. So 15s Lipo is really too much if one is aiming for "48v"?

 

[lcyclist]

Got it running this morning and boy was it fun! The motor didn't really feel alive until I got up some speed, like 10mph or so, but then it kicked in and accelerated very quickly. Maybe this sluggishness in the low speed has more to do with the controller though. I don't think it was made with the soft-start feature that is now coming out for Infineons. It bogged down a bit on the steeper parts of the hill near where I started. On another hill where I had some space to accelerate before hitting the hill, it zoomed right up it like a car. Later today I did a speed test with my friend following behind in a car. The only straight road near my place has an ever so slight upward incline, wouldn't really notice in a car, but still on that he said I was going around 34 mph. Not too shabby.

Interesting, my 1000W direct drive BMC is a dog until about 10 mph. I have to pedal to get it going, afterwards, it takes off.
I am getting a top speed of about 29 mph on 37V with a 30A controller (fresh charged at 41V bosch fatpack 10s-3P). I estimate a top speed of 36 mph using 15s fatpack @ 55V 15s-2P.

How's the noise at low speed? Mine growls below 10 mph and silent at 20 mph.

 

[lcyclist]

Looking at the bottom trace of the controller, looks like the bus at the top vaporized near the right edge of the board... you may just be able to splice a solder wick along the entire bus to beef it up.

 

[Muad'dib]

Keywin (ecrazyman) agreed to send a new controller. I'm paying 25 bucks for shipping because it was past 30 days of receiving it, but I think that is fair. I'm happy he is backing up his product and recommend him for controllers.

 

[grandmasterE]

Got it running this morning and boy was it fun! The motor didn't really feel alive until I got up some speed, like 10mph or so, but then it kicked in and accelerated very quickly. Maybe this sluggishness in the low speed has more to do with the controller though. I don't think it was made with the soft-start feature that is now coming out for Infineons. It bogged down a bit on the steeper parts of the hill near where I started. On another hill where I had some space to accelerate before hitting the hill, it zoomed right up it like a car. Later today I did a speed test with my friend following behind in a car. The only straight road near my place has an ever so slight upward incline, wouldn't really notice in a car, but still on that he said I was going around 34 mph. Not too shabby.

Interesting, my 1000W direct drive BMC is a dog until about 10 mph. I have to pedal to get it going, afterwards, it takes off.
I am getting a top speed of about 29 mph on 37V with a 30A controller (fresh charged at 41V bosch fatpack 10s-3P). I estimate a top speed of 36 mph using 15s fatpack @ 55V 15s-2P.

How's the noise at low speed? Mine growls below 10 mph and silent at 20 mph.

It's interesting that at least anecdotally the direct drive seems to run about the same as what is believed to be a geared version. Muad'dib, have you taken the cover off for inspection, or done any testing to confirm that your weren't mistakenly sold a direct drive unit?

The reason I ask is that I was also looking at the same hubmotor (1000W BMC geared hub) but the performance info on them is a little spotty as of yet. There's the youtube video of the Hi-Power guys riding it, but not any real info out there yet.

Any chance you can do some testing or inspection to make sure you have the geared unit? Or if you have done it, can you post any pics or inspection details?

lcyclist, Muad'dib-can you guys post the rough dimensions of the hub motor case? I'm curious to know how much bigger the direct drive unit was made, and also maybe that's the easiest test to confirm what model is in hand?

Thanks,

E.

 

[Muad'dib]

I half-heartedly tried opening it to see the gears when I first got it, removed a bunch of screws but that didn't open it and since it wasn't immediately apparent how to open it I gave up. So, I can't confirm that it is indeed geared, other than the seller promising me that it is. I'll measure it when I get home tonight.

 

[Drunkskunk]

does it have a freewheel? meaning does the axle turn free one way, but have resistance the other?
Does it make any wirrring noise when turning the axle, like clock work inside?

if not, its probably a direct drive.
Who did you buy it from?

 

[dnmun]

i couldn't tell anything from the pictures except that there were burn marks on the underside of the board where the Drain bus runs.

was there a similar burn mark on the end cap?

if it was a 72V controller, then the LVC would normally be 59V from keywin. is it possible you just ran your batteries down to LVC and that is why it cut out? do you know what i mean?

you mentioned how the 'manufacturer' has to stand behind his product, etc. when you wire it up to any motor, so i wondered where you think that stops. how would he know if you were pushing 3-4kW through a controller designed for much less power?

had you opened the case previously before it failed? and replaced the thermal heat sink joint compound?

 

[Muad'dib]

i couldn't tell anything from the pictures except that there were burn marks on the underside of the board where the Drain bus runs.

was there a similar burn mark on the end cap?

There was a similar burn mark on the case bottom, but not much on the end cap.

if it was a 72V controller, then the LVC would normally be 59V from keywin. is it possible you just ran your batteries down to LVC and that is why it cut out? do you know what i mean?

It is a 48v50amp controller using the same hardware as the 72v controller. It has 12 fets. Since he sold it as a 48v controller, I think he would have adjusted the LVC.

you mentioned how the 'manufacturer' has to stand behind his product, etc. when you wire it up to any motor, so i wondered where you think that stops. how would he know if you were pushing 3-4kW through a controller designed for much less power?

had you opened the case previously before it failed? and replaced the thermal heat sink joint compound?

[/quote][/quote]

I agree that if the customer runs the controller at a higher power than it is meant for, it is not the seller's fault if it breaks. With my misunderstanding of how many Lipos in series it takes for "48v", I guess I unintentionally ran it at 58v or so (acc. to my volt meter before the first ride). Is that beyond what a "48v" controller can handle? Also, I thought I read that the voltage at full charge drops quite a bit under load.

I hadn't opened the controller previously.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Muad'dib,

sorry to hear you had the controller blow so soon into your riding, i had the same experience when i first started too, great to hear your getting a replacement and its only costing you shipping though, heartening to hear keywins service is good.
im not up to speed with the current bmc/infineon but i would think others may be able to tell you what to beef up in the controller to ensure reliability at your voltage which doesn't sound excessive to me, check the infineon thread if you haven't done so already.
nice clean build by the way, looks stealth 8)

Cheers,

D

 

[Muad'dib]

does it have a freewheel? meaning does the axle turn free one way, but have resistance the other?
Does it make any wirrring noise when turning the axle, like clock work inside?

if not, its probably a direct drive.
Who did you buy it from?

I just checked that, and when I spin the wheel forward it makes the click click click of a normal bike and backwards the pedals move and there is a faint noise slow whir. Do gearless motors make any noise when you spin it backwards?

I bought it from: http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/bmc.html

 

[Muad'dib]

Any chance you can do some testing or inspection to make sure you have the geared unit? Or if you have done it, can you post any pics or inspection details?

lcyclist, Muad'dib-can you guys post the rough dimensions of the hub motor case? I'm curious to know how much bigger the direct drive unit was made, and also maybe that's the easiest test to confirm what model is in hand?

Thanks,

E.

The width of the hub motor case is approximately 2 inches at where the spokes tie in and 3 inches at the axle. The diameter is about 7 inches. It's small!

Deecanio, thanks for the encouragement. Stealth except for all the freakin wires coming out the back!

 

[dnmun]

ok, thought that was the old 72V shenzen controller. the voltage you had was not unusual, but i don't know what could have shorted right there. the drain bus is around the edge, but not touching, and the Vcc is over a little bit, not right there so i don't know what shorted.

do you still have it open and can you take a really close closeup of the bottom side where the FETs poke through and see where the S/D buses are very close at the legs of the FETs. maybe even a loose piece of wire left in the controller on assembly could have shorted them out.

 

[Drunkskunk]

does it have a freewheel? meaning does the axle turn free one way, but have resistance the other?
Does it make any wirrring noise when turning the axle, like clock work inside?

if not, its probably a direct drive.
Who did you buy it from?

I just checked that, and when I spin the wheel forward it makes the click click click of a normal bike and backwards the pedals move and there is a faint noise slow whir. Do gearless motors make any noise when you spin it backwards?

I bought it from: http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/bmc.html

I should have been more clear. you would need to check this with the wheel off the bike. or possably just the chain detatched. the noises you described are the chain line and chain freewheel noises.

 

[lcyclist]

Any chance you can do some testing or inspection to make sure you have the geared unit? Or if you have done it, can you post any pics or inspection details?

lcyclist, Muad'dib-can you guys post the rough dimensions of the hub motor case? I'm curious to know how much bigger the direct drive unit was made, and also maybe that's the easiest test to confirm what model is in hand?

Thanks,

E.

The width of the hub motor case is approximately 2 inches at where the spokes tie in and 3 inches at the axle. The diameter is about 7 inches. It's small!


The direct drive 1000W motor is the same dimension as the geared motor; as far as I know, it is also the same case and size as my 600W hi-speed geared motor, except the 1000W motor is painted black, instead of silver.

 

[leamcorp]

I'm bit surprised that it doesn't have the starting torque and behave exactly like a gearless motor.

I'm 2nd guy with the 1000W DD motor and I've been waiting for a geared version for more torque. By the way, how is the noise? Does motor have any gear noise? The DD is very quite, so that would be an indicator.

Oh, I'm running 48v A123 (with 40amp Crystalyte controller). Top speed is over 35mph but I stop there as its gets stupid scary.