Boric Acid + Oil = The slipperiest hardest bearing surface ever. Easily? Experimentation Reqd.

I think what was meant was that appropriating research you can barely understand based on a couple cherry-picked quotes that seem to confirm your biased conclusion isn't a great way to form opinions.

If you started with the opposite idea, you'd easily find "peer reviewed" science that proved the exact opposite of your original point. You'd find a lot of engines that got damaged or showed no marked improvement. Understanding selection bias is also a part of the scientific process of analysing past research.

Edit: and specifically, understanding that a couple promising laboratory results on an isolated sample can take decades before it translates to a product that's usable in the real world. Our existing engine oils have many, many more additives, including ones that reduce wear and friction, operating in a careful balance. If the currently viable lubricating performance increase of this solution happened at the cost of other properties, you can easily see that everything said so far could be true, yet it would still wouldn't be a great idea to pour it into your engine.
 
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marty said:
And that is why I don't take pills or add additives to my motor oil. Do have great faith in the engineers at GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, Tecumseh, Briggs & Stratton or whatever I am pouring oil in. USE WHAT IT SAYS TO IN THE MANUAL!

Wouldn't it be great if humans came with a service manual written by the manufacturer?
Click to expand...


We aren't talking about tossing a tablespoon of BA into your engine oil here.
We're talking about sprinkling (preferably fine and damp) BA onto/into the chain and bearings of an older bike where you are planning to replace those parts anyway.

If it doesn't work; So what; replace as planned. Nothing lost.
If it does; you get to trust your own observations. ie: Yourself. You do trust yourself don't you!? :)

Do I expect you personally to try it: Hell No! :)
This is written for others reading this.

As for the trusted engineers:
They can only recommend what they know, or know of so far.
Then;
you don't have to look far to find stuff engineered for Planed Obsolescence.
You know; crap that doesn't last a month.
Engines that cant be rebuilt anymore. (A good place to try BA)

So sometimes engineers are forced to under engineer etc and, by extension, forced to under specify.
(That must be a soul destroying experience IMHO)
 
bananu7 said:
I think what was meant was that appropriating research you can barely understand based on a couple cherry-picked quotes that seem to confirm your biased conclusion isn't a great way to form opinions.
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LOL! :D
At your assumptions...

Yes the quotes from the research are cherry picked, in the hope of getting people to read them.
I see that, despite the possibility of there being less flattering bits you might quote, that hasn't happened here. :)

bananu7 said:
If you started with the opposite idea, you'd easily find "peer reviewed" science that proved the exact opposite of your original point. You'd find a lot of engines that got damaged or showed no marked improvement. Understanding selection bias is also a part of the scientific process of analysing past research.
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Sure.
So where is this peer reviewed published research..? Post it.
I couldn't find any.

bananu7 said:
Edit: and specifically, understanding that a couple promising laboratory results on an isolated sample can take decades before it translates to a product that's usable in the real world. Our existing engine oils have many, many more additives, including ones that reduce wear and friction, operating in a careful balance. If the currently viable lubricating performance increase of this solution happened at the cost of other properties, you can easily see that everything said so far could be true, yet it would still wouldn't be a great idea to pour it into your engine.
Click to expand...

I am aware of them all.
So far none are incompatible with BA and there is research showing synergy.
I'd link, but no one reads them do they!? :)

I am also aware of the fact that Joe Soap will toss in a can of whatever oil's on the shelf at the gas station when his engine's low on oil.
The last thing Caltex for eg. needs is people saying: "I added a can of Caltex XYZ and my engine died!"
So oil formulators do NOT formulate anything that's incompatible with other formulations..!
Those other formulations often contain Boron Esters etc that react with water (of combustion) to form BA...

But we aren't talking about treating engines here:
We're talking about sprinkling (preferably fine and damp) BA onto/into the chain and bearings of an older bike where you are planning to replace those parts anyway.

If it doesn't work; So what; replace as planned. Nothing lost.
If it does; you get to skip 'The Science' and trust your own observations. ie: Yourself.


(If you really want to talk engines: Link refuting evidence to the above linked research.
If you cant be bothered to spend the time; what are you doing spending the time posting here..? :)
This thread has nothing to do with the path of least personal effort. (both physical and mental) Or 'converting heathens to that/your religion'
It's all about new science and trying something new for the joy of discovery. :) As I did)
 
Logic11 said:
We're talking about sprinkling (preferably fine and damp) BA onto/into the chain and bearings of an older bike where you are planning to replace those parts anyway.

If it doesn't work; So what; replace as planned. Nothing lost.
If it does; you get to skip 'The Science' and trust your own observations. ie: Yourself.
Click to expand...
Well, I've got this old schwinn trike I'm working on, whose chain is already at least 40 years old (though probably very little used). It's not rusted solid, or sticky links. Actually it has two chains, the one from the pedals to the IGH, and the one from the IGH to the diff. The latter one will probably get swapped out as I'll be using a different diff but the pedal chain will probably stay jsut as it is. It does'nt see much loading, so it won't be much of a stress test, but I can carry a spare with a master link in case the test fails dramatically at some point.

The chain is off right now wiating for me to get the IGH lubed, and the new diff fixed up so it can be installed in place of the old, so I can reassemble that section of the trike, so now would probably be the time to try it out.

I can't do any of the bearings, as I wouldn't be able to swap them roadside in a hurry in the up-to-120F+ heat of the summer if thats when they should choose to die, if there's a failure.

So, if the boric acid is really cheap, like I could get the kind you're talking about at the dollar store, then I could try this test.

Any recommended super cheap brands?
 
amberwolf said:
Well, I've got this old schwinn trike I'm working on, whose chain is already at least 40 years old (though probably very little used). It's not rusted solid, or sticky links. Actually it has two chains, the one from the pedals to the IGH, and the one from the IGH to the diff. The latter one will probably get swapped out as I'll be using a different diff but the pedal chain will probably stay jsut as it is. It does'nt see much loading, so it won't be much of a stress test, but I can carry a spare with a master link in case the test fails dramatically at some point.

The chain is off right now wiating for me to get the IGH lubed, and the new diff fixed up so it can be installed in place of the old, so I can reassemble that section of the trike, so now would probably be the time to try it out.

I can't do any of the bearings, as I wouldn't be able to swap them roadside in a hurry in the up-to-120F+ heat of the summer if thats when they should choose to die, if there's a failure.

So, if the boric acid is really cheap, like I could get the kind you're talking about at the dollar store, then I could try this test.

Any recommended super cheap brands?
Click to expand...

I buy it in little 50gram boxes from Chemist Shops here amberwolf. That would be 'Drug Stores' in the US.
It's really inexpensive, but I have no idea of brand names over there.
Just make sure it's Boric Acid (B2O3)
NOT!!!
Borax

I don't know if you saw my 'where to get it' and 'How To' earlier in the thread? Post #35
 
Aw geez. You're taking it all way personally, @Logic11 . I haven't stated that you're wrong - merely that skimming over lots of papers doesn't necessarily make you right. If the commonly used boron-ester additives do indeed form boron acid inside of the engine, then I think adding your own formulation to it is out of question anyway, since you'd be already getting those benefits.

As for bike chains... Yeah, I do have an old chain. Do you know what I'm going to do with it? Instead of sprinkling with boron acid, I'll replace it because after about 20 years of use, none of the links is seized; instead the chain has elongated so much that it doesn't interface the sprockets properly. Could the reduced friction marginally increase its lifespan over its lifetime? Maybe, but I'm hope you see how it's quite utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. My main requirement for chain lubricant now is not making my legs black...

P.S. I believe the lube I'm currently using is based on forming a thin ceramic film after a few applications. When talking friction improvements, I'd be more interested how that compares to the surface after the BA application, compared to just metal, as, as we've already established, it's existing chemistry we're competing against, nor untreated surfaces. And I mean, you don't have to convince anyone here specifically. If the idea has merit, find funding, get the product to the market and you'll soon verify it in practice over much larger sample. I'll happily buy it once it's readily available to replace my current lube.
 
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bananu7 said:
Aw geez. You're taking it all way personally, @Logic11 . I haven't stated that you're wrong - merely that skimming over lots of papers doesn't necessarily make you right. If the commonly used boron-ester additives do indeed form boron acid inside of the engine, then I think adding your own formulation to it is out of question anyway, since you'd be already getting those benefits.
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LOL! 🤣 at your assumptions again

'The Devil's in the dosage'
Remember you want to form a protective oxide layer fully covering the bearing surface + have BA in oil above that as that's where the friction reduction comes from.
A molecule of Boric Oxide on the metal surface here and there, with none left for the lubricious layer above wont help.
bananu7 said:
As for bike chains... Yeah, I do have an old chain. Do you know what I'm going to do with it? Instead of sprinkling with boron acid, I'll replace it because after about 20 years of use, none of the links is seized; instead the chain has elongated so much that it doesn't interface the sprockets properly. Could the reduced friction marginally increase its lifespan over its lifetime? Maybe, but I'm hope you see how it's quite utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. My main requirement for chain lubricant now is not making my legs black...
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I agree:
I don't think there will be a noticeable difference from lubing the chain alone. The difference will likely just be too small to notice.
It'd take treating the whole bike, including the bearings and gearbox of any motor.

The surface layer/s formed is said to be about 0.5 microns thick.
That's around 0.002mm per link, or 1mm per 500 links.
So ideally you'd want to treat the chain before the links have worn much.
Having done that; yes; I believe it's lifespan would be dramatically increased.
It is open to dust and grit however...
Of-course if a too powerful motor stretches the metal of the chain's links; only a stronger chain will help.

Relevance:
The Friction Co-efficient of base mineral oil at a load of 5kg: 0.15
For base mineral oil + 10% by weight Boric Acid at a load of 5kg: 0.01
That 15X less and the effect improves with load..!
US5431830A - Lubrication from mixture of boric acid with oils and greases - Google Patents
So will someone pedaling a bike with all bearings treated notice a difference is the question!
Will the range of an E-bike improve significantly enough for this to be relevant..?
I don't know. Do you? :)

When you look at the difference in wear rates, in the same patent you can see that you will be buying a lot less bearings:
Wear: 11 microns per meter (sliding) vs 0.002 (if my maths is right)
So few in fact that any bearing makers etc reading this are likely looking at hiring a hit-man as we speak! :D
NB that a Base Oil does not contain any other additives.
NB that it's doubtful the test surfaces were run in before the test and, based on my experience, I believe an initial 'Running In' will improve the numbers )

bananu7 said:
P.S. I believe the lube I'm currently using is based on forming a thin ceramic film after a few applications. When talking friction improvements, I'd be more interested how that compares to the surface after the BA application, compared to just metal, as, as we've already established, it's existing chemistry we're competing against, nor untreated surfaces. And I mean, you don't have to convince anyone here specifically. If the idea has merit, find funding, get the product to the market and you'll soon verify it in practice over much larger sample. I'll happily buy it once it's readily available to replace my current lube.
Click to expand...

With BA the formed Boron Oxide layer might well be called: "...a thin ceramic film..." without telling a lie.
And with the temperatures we are speaking here and a reliance on only the moisture in the air, it may well take : "...a few applications..." in time.
So now I'm interested!
What lube are you talking about!??
 
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You were stringing him along weren't you 😂

That's a bit mean. No really, go stand in the corner. No don't face the class, teacher is giving you a timeout 😇
 
bananu7 said:
Aha, maybe you're on to something.

Finish Line - Bicycle Lubricants and Care ProductsCeramic Wax Lube

www.finishlineusa.com www.finishlineusa.com



my hat is off ;)
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I was wondering why your chain lasted 20 years! LOL! :)

While Boron Nitride (BN) is a very good solid lubricant its not quite as good as BA.
https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/1456555
It also doesn't react with Metal Oxides = metal surfaces to form the hard, chemically inert (no rust) layer BA does.

Fortunately BN + water = Boron Oxide (BO) + Ammonia
(this is not an all or nothing reaction. Some will remain BN and some will turn into BO at some equilibrium point depending on temperatures and pressures and such. The Ammonia will just evaporate away)

Now BO is very hygroscopic (attracts absorbs water) to form Boric Acid.
BA does react with the surface.
attachment.php


So eventually you will end up with this BO surface, but that BA above it will also contain BN. (Synergistic IIRC)

IMHO your chain lube is good stuff bananu7!
It's a good way to get BN, BO and BA 'in there' at the slow rate at which these reactions will occur in std (humidity) air.
But mostly it's a good way for Finish Line to 'put it' without all the "Eek! Acid!!" and "But that sh!t's cheap!" reactions they might otherwise get.
We're not all chemists and engineers after all. :)

  • What might improve it a bit is adding fine BA powder at about 5%.
  • My Coffee Grinder filled with BA, then put it/them in the bottom of the freezer (coldest) for a day before grinding (while frozen/brittle) advice is here.
  • But then open it and put it somewhere humid to warm up, giving it the odd grind/stir as it warms.
  • Repeat that 2 or 3 times to get really fine moist powder.
The cold will attract some extra moisture out the air (condensation) changing any residual BO to BA and adding a bit of extra moisture which is good.

Toss that into your lube bottle and give it a damn good stir/shake before lubing the chain.
(Any excess water will evaporate)

Same advice for bearings, but use oil and around 10% BA.
If you want to go the fast route; steam the lubed bearings etc while rotating them.
 
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