Bottom balancing?

The topic of Lithium Battery Management Systems (BMS)) and Charging can become passionate. I have seen some older threads here on the subject but were not really resolved with in depth analysis or conclusion. I have been involved professionally with batteries for about 35 years, built my own Racing Golf Carts (3 now), and semi-retired.

Lithium Batteries are expensive and Fragile unlike their Brethren Lead Acid, NiCd, and any other battery chemistry you can name. Lithium batteries have two sensitive areas. Full Charge and Discharged. If you care about your investment ca$h in Lithium Batteries, you need a Battery Management System or a Strategy in place to protect that investment and get the most out of it.

The fastest and easiest way to destroy a Lithium battery is Over Discharge it into Reverse Polarity. It only takes one careless simple mistake to turn a Lithium battery into a brick or boat anchor. Second is Over Charge, or leaving fully charge for extended periods of time like 24 hours. Over charging is the most common failure mode in Lithium batteries, and is accumulative over time. You want to operate between 20/80% State of Charge (SOC) as best you can or at least 90/10% SOC.

So which method of BMS do you implement and why? Are you a Top Balance or Bottom Balance advocate? You cannot do Middle Balance in the technical and economic sense in which all major Auto Manufactures implement. Auto manufactures like Tesla, Nissan, Toyota, and Chey use Middle Balance or sometimes called Partial State Of Charge (PSOC) or Between the Sheets. They operate their Lithium Batteries between 80/20% State of Charge (SOC). They do this to maximize battery cycle life, and offer the public 8 year warranties. Take this hint and thought with you as you read further.

Manufactures can do many things Joe Plummer cannot possible duplicate or implement. Things like order X00,000 batteries, test, and sort them to 1% tolerance bins. Does not matter if they Bottom, Middle, or Top Balance the batteries because all batteries in a vehicle are matched. If they are say 100 AH rated, each cell is within 1 AH of each other. Lowest would say be 102 AH and largest 103 AH. Of that 100 AH the EV manufactures limit usable capacity to 60 to 80%.

They do not Top Balance by charging the cells to 100% SOC. rather they limit SOC to 80 to 90%. This single act alone enables the manufactures to offer up to 8 year battery warranties. It is quite well know limiting charge to less than 100% can double cycle life of Lithium batteries. That is contrary to lead acid battery mindsets. With Pb it would be unthinkable of not charging your battery to 100% and hold it there until ready to use. Then rush to get it fully recharged again after use. Pb batteries do not like running in a PSOC environment. Lithium thrives in the PSOC environment and we can take advantage of that.

We or most of us cannot duplicate any of that. We order small quantities, off the shelf, and wide variance of capacity. Say you buy 100 AH cells, and they can range from 99 AH at the low end. up to 115 AH at the high end. No matter how you arrange them, you end up with a 99 AH battery. The lowest capacity cell in a series string limits the total string capacity.

So what can we do to mimic what the commercial EV Manufactures do? If we cannot not implement Middle Balance, that leaves us Top Balance or Bottom Balance. Well I guess there is always ignore it.

Let's start with the commercial answer, Top Balance with BMS. As disclosure when I first went into building fast Golf Carts and working with batteries professionally for around 30 years I was a TOP BALANCE advocate. We did not have Lithium when I started. It was an Engineered PRODUCT solution made for sale to automate battery care. I am an Engineer, so go with it. Do it because that is the way we do things, the ole fashion charge until 100% SOC Lead Head crowd.

What is TOP BALANCE? Answer is real simple, charge every cell to MAXIMUM CAPACITY to maximize run time right? Well in the Power Tool, Laptop, tablets, cell phones, or whatever consumer gizmo/gadget you have, the consumer wants the longest run time possible. Cycle life is not critical and will only yield a few years of service before the battery craps out. After a few years, your gizmo is antiquated, and time for upgrade replacement model. That is fine for the disposable market. They traded cycle life, for maximum usable battery capacity. Charging Lithium batteries in excess of around 80 to 90% accelerates aging, cuts cycle life as much as 50%, ending in accelerated capacity loss, and premature failure. Limiting SOC to 80% has proven to double cycle life of a battery. EV and utility storage applications have a different set of priorities due to the large battery investment cost. Replacing batteries every 2 to 4 years is unacceptable period.

So how can Joe Plummer use the same Middle Balance techniques used by EV manufactures? You can mimic what they do with Bottom Balance approach. All Bottom Balance means is when the cells are received, you initially Bottom Balance them by connecting all cells in parallel and discharge them until you get a resting voltage somewhere between 2.4 and 2.6 volts for LiFePo4, or 3.2 to 3.3 for LiPo RC Hobby batteries. Then assemble your batteries and charge.

What this does is gives you 2 known reference points. 0 AH capacity and 0% SOC voltage. All batteries all equal in voltage and capacity of ZERO. In a Top Balanced system all we know is 100% SOC voltage reference. That does not tell you capacity. Just that every battery is fully charged up to some amp hour capacity. The packs AH capacity is determined by of the lowest capacity cell in a series string. If you have a 99 AH cell in series with 115 AH cells, you have a 99 AH pack capacity. That is a weak point in Top Balance system we can exploited to our advantage. We don’t want to take any cell to 100%. We want cycle life and concede 80 to 90% is a better long term strategy.

Top Balance systems have two weaknesses we would like to avoid. 1. Is what has already been discussed. Charging to 100% SOC using Pb mentality or stuck in a Lead Acid box mindset that demands 100% SOC. That shortens Lithium cycle life. Very easy to implement and cost you nothing. Just lower charging End Voltage to 80 to 90% SOC voltage. Done. No Bleeder/Monitor boards to buy for each cell are required.

2. This is probable the biggest advantage Bottom Balance has over Top Balance. The fastest way to destroy a lithium battery is to over discharge and have a Reverse Polarity occurrence. If that happens you are done. You have a destroyed cell(s). Bottom Balanced system passively eliminate that threat. It takes no automation or equipment to minimize or eliminate over discharge accidents. If you set your Motor/Controller or Inverter Low Voltage Disconnect (LVD) set point say to 42 volts on a 48 volt system, you have doubled down your protection by adding another layer of protection by using your motor controller or inverter LVD. The LVD will trip 2 volts higher than when the battery voltage collapses when pack voltage is 40 volts. When Bottom Balanced, all cells arrive at 0% capacity at the same time. There is no adjacent cell left in the string that has enough power to force another cell into Reverse Polarity because you removed the possibility of it happening in the first place. Strategy, not more equipment bought you more protection than automation can provide at 0 costs. Nothing to fail because it is Passive Protection designed in.

Top Balance systems are prone, or at least make the conditions right that allows you to over discharge at least 1 if not more than 1 cell to destruction. When Top Balanced, you charge every cell to 100% capacity. But every cell capacity is different at 100% SOC. Say a 48 volt battery 16S 100 AH LFP. 15 cells at say 115 AH and one of 99 AH. You have your LVD set for a conservative 44 volts. Well here is the bad news. At 47.5 volts which is still a strong 20 to 25% pack voltage indication, you now have that 99 AH cell at 0% SOC and being driven into Polarity Reversal by the adjacent stronger batteries thus destroying it without your knowledge. It may take a while to catch on as one of two things tip you off. You notice when you charge, all the sudden the resting voltage after charging dropped 3.4 volts or more. Or the cell catches fire or starts smoking while either being charged or discharged.

Now you can work around that problem in a Top Balanced System with a full Blown BMS that monitors every cell voltage, and capable of operating an external LVC Relay, or send a signal to the motor controller to shut down and disconnect the traction battery. All you gotta do is buy it.

There is another way, requires no additional equipment to buy as that is optional, significantly extend battery cycle life, and eliminates the risk of over discharge. All you gotta do is change your mindset, not your equipment. If you are interesting in Bottom Balance here is a basic over view of how to implement it.

When you receive your cells, check the voltage of each cell and make sure all cells are within .1 volts of each other. They should all arrive around 50 to 60% SOC storage voltage. Connect all of them in parallel with your battery bus bars or heavy wiring. Apply a load current to them and discharge them until they come to a resting voltage between 2.4 to 2.6 volts over night for LFP cells. At this point you have your ZERO Capacity and Voltage Reference Point

Assemble the cells for working operation in series. Time for the first charge. You are going to need a charger with adjustable voltage output, and just a simple Float mode charger like the ones they use for EV’s like a PFC 1500, a very versatile charger that can charge any battery chemistry or voltage of 24 volts up to 96 volts at 1500 watts. Charge rate needs to be no less than C/8 and no more than C/2. Initially set the charger to about 75% SOC voltage of the pack voltage. Example for a 16S LFP battery set the voltage to 55.2 volts. Monitor battery voltages while charging. Toward the end of the charge, there is going to be 1 battery with a slightly higher voltage than all the rest. It is the smallest capacity battery and you want to make note of it.

So let the first charge cycle complete and wait at least a couple of hours to rest the batteries. Now measure the voltage of the weakest battery, the one with the highest voltage. You want it to indicate somewhere in between 80 and 90% SOC. If it ends up a little low, raise the charger voltage a bit. If over 90, lower the voltage a bit. Do this a few times until you find the sweet spot. Then periodically check cell voltages one a month for any changes.

Here is the magic. With Bottom Balanced batteries, all cells have the same Amp Hour Capacity. You just mimicked what the big boys do and get the same benefit. When charged all cells have the same capacity, not the same SOC voltage. When discharged all the batteries have the same capacity, but they also have the same SOC voltage of 2.5 volts.

Last thing to do is set the LVD setting on your controller or inverter. Even if they do not allow you to adjust LVD set point defaults are conservative enough because they are likely set up for lead acid default of 1.75 volts per cell. So on a 12 volt system, LVD is set default to 10.5 TO 11.0 volts. Critical cutoff for a 4S LFP is 10 volts so you have a .5 TO 1 volt safety zone. If you can set LVD shoot for as low as you dare. But I suggest 20% SOC or about 2.9 loaded volts per cell so on a 12 volt system 11.6 volts giving you a lot of breathing room. It is like wearing a belt with suspenders and does not cost one red cent. Even if you do not disconnect the batteries, they will protect themselves from being Bottom Balanced and cannot Reverse Polarity an adjacent cell.

Chew on that a while!
 
presumptions are wrong. charging to full charge is required to force the BMSs to balance the pack. you should know that if you are an expert.

it is not fully charging that causes the shortening of cycle life, it is the length of time the cell is left fully charged or left charged close to full charge for long periods of time.

so you can have shortened cycle life charging to 4.15V if you leave it charged up to that level constantly.

best rule is to leave pack uncharged until it needs to be used and then charge up to the level needed to bring the pack into balance again. if the pack is not balanced at full charge then some of the cells are pushing current when they are at a lower state of charge so there is more internal heating because the higher resistance of the cell at that SOC.
 
dnmun said:
presumptions are wrong. charging to full charge is required to force the BMSs to balance the pack. you should know that if you are an expert.
Fully aware of it and that is the problem with Top Balance. You have to get cell voltages high enough to TURN ON the Vampire Bleeder Balance Boards so they shunt charge current around a full cell passing it to lower cells if there are any. Roughly 100% SOC voltage is required to TURN ON Balance Boards to stop them from over charging anymore. That is a Pb mentality applied to Lithium. You do not want to mess with anything higher than 80 to 90% SOC. Thus unless you can program those Balance Boards Turn On Voltages to something lower, you take default 100% SOC. Or better yet just do not charge to 100% and you have no use for Balance Boards anymore other than monitoring cell voltages and temps if they have that capability.

You do not need any special charging technique or equipment to charge lithium batteries. You just need to know when to stop. If you Bottom Balance, cell capacity is the same in all cells at all times. You could even use Coulomb Counting Amp Hours to determine SOC and not even need to know voltages. As long as you do not tap any loads off individual cells like monitor boards or Vampire Bleeder Balance Boards known as Parasitic Loads, Lithium cells stay balanced.
 
dnmun said:
best rule is to leave pack uncharged until it needs to be used and then charge up to the level needed to bring the pack into balance again. if the pack is not balanced at full charge then some of the cells are pushing current when they are at a lower state of charge so there is more internal heating because the higher resistance of the cell at that SOC.

Again Pb mentality. Lithium especially LFP have a Reverse Impedance Coefficient with respect to SOC level. As lithium batteries charge to a higher state of charge, their internal resistance goes higher. As they discharge the internal resistance goes lower. In a Series circuit current I1 = I2 = I3 ... at all times. If we start all cells from known 0 AH, as we charge we pump the exact same amount or Amp Hours into every cell every time. Same goes for discharge. Lithium Coulumbmetric efficiency is so high, we do not suffer the Parasitic losses of other battery chemistry which cause them to loose Equalization. That is what makes Lithium batteries different from all others.

I do agree with you to some extent of not charging batteries after every use as there is no need and more harm done taking lithium to 100% and letting them set. Let them go below 50% or all the way down to 20%. Lithium thrives in a PSOC environment where Pb suffers in PSOC. As for storage all manufactures recommend 50 to 60%. I would not want to put one away at say 20% for any length of time because lithium all though slow do have some self discharge. Storing at 50 or 60% buys you a lot more time than 10 or 20%.
 
eTrike said:
With a battery analyzer (there are several options to choose) capacity and IR can be matched for each cell before assembly, as is common practice.

You can and will if you are an EV manufacture and have 100's of thousands of cells to work with. Those of us who are going it alone DIY style, we only have the 4, 8, or 16 cells we bought to make our Pack with. We do not have the luxury or testing thousands of cells to choose from. We play the hand we are dealt.

Being BMS free and using cell-logs and occasional balance charging, you can set your balance charge (top!) at any SOC you like -- of course 90% is great and 80% is better if you can afford it. There are also programmable BMSs.

eTrike said:
FWIW, in a well built pack, if your cells are balanced and you do 80-20 or 90-10, you will rarely need to balance.

I agree and that applies to both Top and Bottom Balanced systems.
 
Top balancing: maximizes available watt hours out of the battery.
Bottom balancing: minimizes available whrs/kg, supposedly extends cell life and not a solid guarantee that any cell will go below 3.0.
Middle balancing ( nor no unbalancing at all ): safest option for charging without a BMS. Compromise between all 3. Safer for avoiding both over/undercharge conditions. Will extend cell life as well.

With my RC Lipos, i do middle charging. Charge to 4.15, stop at 3.6-3.5
 
Most people should know that with a decent balance charger, you can balance the pack at any soc, be it bottom, middle, top, or anywhere in between. You can also do this with other devices like battery medics if you want to balance a pack with a bms. Just make extra balance plugs.
 
If you really want max lifespan, do a slight undercharge, top balancing at that voltage. And don't store full.

On the other hand, if you undercharge, no harm in a few cells being charged slightly higher than the others. With say, .1v per cell of wiggle room, you can safely charge them that much more without overcharge. Seems like you like that plan, and so do I. They stay "balanced enough"

Maximum capacity, is of course top balancing. I'm a strong advocate of maximizing performance by chucking any weak cell, rather than trying to live with it through bottom balancing, or needing to wait for balancing to happen every damn cycle.

Any way you balance, you gotta stop in time of course. Once you know which cell has the lowest capacity, you can monitor voltage on just that pack, cell, or cell group.
 
Actually, for the large size cells, for electric cars, etc., Over on diyelectriccar.com website, there is always someone bringing up top versus bottom balancing. Might pay a visit and do a search for that topic. These guys have years of doing it both ways. No guessing involved.
 
what do you mean there is no guessing involved in bottom balancing? nothing could be farther from the truth.

there is no way to know what the state of charge is and there is no BMS that can balance a pack at the low voltages they use to set for the 0% SOC to charge up from.

no mention is made about self discharge here and yet it is the single most important reason for needing to balance a pack except for the initial balancing cycles when the battery is built.
 
I started to go through the OP, planning to knock down points one by one, but I just don't have the patience...not today.

The problem here Sunking, and with all the other guys over at DIY Electric Car who think they can bottom balance and not bother with any cell level monitoring, is a plethora of incorrect assumptions upon which is built a house of cards.

OEM's DO NOT balance plug-in vehicles at less than 100% SOC. The 20%-80% thing you describe applies only to HEV's...where accurate balancing is extremely difficult (and thus risky) at the extreme edges of charge, so it is generally (but not completely) avoided. Longer life is an ancillary benefit, and some have learned to manipulate this and take advantage of it, but this is unique to HEV's. PHEVs and full electrics live in a range-crazed world, and, AFAIK, every OEM out there takes their packs to 100% SOC during a complete plug-in cycle. I know for a fact that this is the case with GM (Chevy Spark), the Fisker Karma, and cars built by Chinese OEM SAIC. I don't know for certain what Nissan and Tesla do, but I would be very surprised to find them doing anything different. So, this is one of your cornerstone assumptions blown out of the water--it just isn't true.

Here's another...OEM's DO NOT spend a lot of time sorting cells. If they build the pack themselves, they may do a visual inspection of the cells and check OCV out of the box. They may run tests on a small sample of incoming cells, but they DO NOT hand-sort, match and select every cell for their packs. This would be an enormously expensive endeavor, one that OEM's expect the battery maker is already providing through their own quality test processes. So here is another fundamental assumption in your thinking that is just plain wrong.

You also dramatically overstate the detriment of taking a cell to 100% SOC. Keeping a cell at 100% SOC for 24 hours will destroy it? Nonsense. Let's talk about the mechanisms at work in LFP. If you take a cell over 3.60 Volts (RESTED), you will plate Li onto the cathodes, causing permanent capacity loss. This is not something that happens terribly rapidly...unless you were to do it habitually, you probably would not even notice anything at all, and even then it would take weeks, or more likely months, before the trend became visible. It's a bad thing to do, but nowhere near as severe abuse as driving a cell negative, which is indeed nearly an instant killer. If you don't exceed 3.60 Volts, the only stress you are subjecting the cell to is a slightly accelerated growth of the SEI layer. The rate of this is roughly proportional to SOC. If you want zero SEI layer growth (the main cause of Li cell degradation under normal, proper use), keep your cells at 0% SOC, or hold them below 50 degrees F at all times. These are obviously not practical in a battery you wish to use on short notice, which is why nobody does them. The SEI growth difference between 80% and 100% is not great, and 100% SOC should not be considered an abusive condition.

Speaking of what the OEM's do.....every one of them uses extensive BMS systems with cell-level voltage monitoring and balancing electronics. Why does this not play into your considerations, if you're trying to get to what they do? The fact is, without these things, you are flying blind. A cell defect or other anomalous condition can get past the safeguards you recommend if it is severe enough, or is allowed to fester long enough (and the bigger the pack, the more likely a user is to fall into that trap.) THE PRACTICES YOU AND OTHER ARE ADVOCATING HERE ARE EVENTUALLY GOING TO KILL SOMEBODY, IF THEY HAVEN'T ALREADY . I may seem like an ass when discussing this topic, but that is the bottom line right there. It might happen only in 1 car out of 100 or 1000, but that level of risk is still totally unacceptable and taking that kind of risk would land OEM personnel in jail. It probably seemed like hyperbole when I first stated that at DIY EC, but just a couple weeks later the justice dept. announced they were looking at criminal charges against GM personnel for the ignition switch issue...which has a FAR smaller risk than what you are advocating here.

A small pack on a bike (in plain sight at all times) or similar in the hands of a technically competent individual carries a small risk and still requires vigilant, regular babysitting. The larger a pack gets, the greater the energy potential, the greater the risk. A pack like this tucked away in a car (out of sight, out of mind) in the hands of a technically competent individual is riskier than it should be. In the hands of a lay person (who believes you when you say it's perfectly safe), it's a death trap. The practice is quackery, plain and simple. Do yourself a favor and stop before it's too late.
 
neptronix said:
Top balancing: maximizes available watt hours out of the battery.
Bottom balancing: minimizes available whrs/kg, supposedly extends cell life and not a solid guarantee that any cell will go below 3.0.
Middle balancing ( nor no unbalancing at all ): safest option for charging without a BMS. Compromise between all 3. Safer for avoiding both over/undercharge conditions. Will extend cell life as well.
Battery pack capacity is set by the lowest capacity cell in a series string. If your lowest capacity cell is a single 100 AH cell and all others or 120 AH, you only have a 100 AH battery. If you only charge to 80% which is well documented to double life cycle leaves you with 80 AH in all cells.

As LFP discharges the internal resistance goes down thus increasing efficiency.
 
eTrike said:
Still, occasional top balancing using readily available chargers is the preferred method due to inherent inefficiencies of bottom balancing.
What inefficiencies. LFP cell internal resistance goes does as they discharge making efficiency go up as you discharge.
 
Cell impedance goes up as SOC goes down, with the bottom 20% of SOC being the worst of all. Yet another backward assumption.
 
Harold in CR said:
Actually, for the large size cells, for electric cars, etc., Over on diyelectriccar.com website, there is always someone bringing up top versus bottom balancing. Might pay a visit and do a search for that topic. These guys have years of doing it both ways. No guessing involved.

You are correct and you will find me there. The DIY Forum has a lot of professionals in the trade like myself and you are correct. We have been BOTTOM BALANCING for years with great success. Some of you might learn something.

Top Balance comes from the Disposable Consumers Electronics Market where consumers demand maximum run time of 100% SOC to 0 % SOC. Those markets use matched cells. It is no problem trading cycle life for run time because you will throw away your gizmo in 2 to 4 years by design. That is unacceptable in the EV and Energy Storage world. EV and Energy Storage run 20/805 and would never dare going above 80% or lower than 20%.
 
SunKing said:
EV and Energy Storage run 20/805 and would never dare going above 80% or lower than 20%.

BS. Show us the data that proves this.
 
Lithium battery balancing.
That like a pair of shoes ? Are we talking dress shoes, running shoes or work boots ? All types of lithium cells act different. Lico, lifepo4, nmc they all act different. So pick which one you want to talk about and start there. Also is this just for a racing lawn mower or a commercial ebike for the public. All have different needs and price points.
 
when people say they are professionals it makes me sick. what profession?

do you know any physical chemistry. have you ever had to do advanced chemistry homework or studied any materials science?

what profession? you said you are on some consulting board with respect to battery technology, so what board and what did you do?

for you to not understand what W9 has explained to you just proves to me you are faking your "professional" credentials.
 
wb9k said:
Cell impedance goes up as SOC goes down, with the bottom 20% of SOC being the worst of all. Yet another backward assumption.
No it is not backwards. That is true for most battery types but does not apply to Lithium batteries especially LFP. Internal resistance is essentially FLAT from 100 to 0% SOC. As you reach zero volts the resistance drops significantly and into Reverse Polarity fusing the battery making it almost a dead short circuit Boat Anchor of a Brick.

That characteristic inherent in Lithium batteries which gives them that unique ability to operate with a bad cell. Only way you will notice after you charge, the voltage is 3.5 volts lower than normal, or possible smoke fire while charging or discharging. Most others like Pb NiCd, blah blah Ri will increase as the battery discharges. Increases to very resistance at 0%. thus stopping current flow.

The two common lithium battery failure modes are; Fail Open as a result of normal use, charging history, and/or from abusive over charging. Fail Shorted from over discharge, which is kind of a good thing as it means you limp home instead of a Tow Truck. Not many batteries can do that except Lithium. If you consider battery types available to the public lithium is the only one that can do that for motive applications.
 
FWIW, the discussions over on DIY EC are usually in the context of a car using large-format LFP cells like CALB, Sinopoly, etc.. You don't have to dig very far on that board to see Sunking saying that people like me are in on a conspiracy by cell makers to sell you BMS's you don't actually need.

Personally, I don't care what letters somebody has paid for the right to put behind their name. Experience and access to / comprehension of data are what matter most here. And, as I have already stated, there is lots of data out there (I wish I could publish the stuff I come by in my day to day, but it doesn't belong to me) that stands in direct contradiction to what the OP posits to be fundamental in this debate. Nearly every fundamental assumption made is patently incorrect. I have CAN logs from several manufacturers showing a car at 100% SOC (LFP with every cell at 3.5 and up, usually balanced to within a mV or two) after a charge cycle. Our starter batteries have a balance target of 3.585 Volts...the margin is mostly there to account for the fact that the bit depth of the cell level measurement only provides 20 mV of resolution, not a burning desire to keep cells from ever touching 3.60 V. In fact, A123 cells are rated to be held at 3.8 Volts for up to ten seconds. I could go on.

The promulgators of the present witchcraft offer as proof their own experience, much of which has been colored by failures of sub-par electronics systems (the dreaded BMS) in early efforts. Armed with this information and a tiny amount of actual historical data that is rarely reviewed by anyone, they have surmised that LFP is "self-balancing" and you don't really need cell-level monitoring at all as long as you bottom balance and always stay between 20% and 80% SOC. [The meaning of the term "BMS" is often hard to pin down in these discussions. Sunking has said at DIY EC that he uses "no BMS of any kind"...but I would say he describes about 2/3 of a decent BMS system here and elsewhere. The only thing really lacking is cell-level monitoring of voltages to enable detection of cell failures and the effective dealing with the potential danger that comes with.] In the majority of cases, this turns out to be reasonably safe because severe cell failures are indeed rare, and LFP is pretty forgiving as Li ion goes during failure. But it's not safe enough for real world cars. Assuming that battery cells will never fail is not an acceptable design practice. Period. It's a game of roulette, and sooner or later, somebody loses. Nobody has ever produced cells at 0 ppm, and it's unlikely anybody ever will. Deal with it.
 
Punx0r said:
What is the relevance of characteristics (correct or not) at 0V?

The biggest risk in the proposed scenario is that a pack will drift out of balance unnoticed until one cell is over 20% low wrt the rest of the pack. Driving the car to "0% SOC" (guesstimated by pack voltage, rather that verifying the SOC of the lowest cell) when it is in such a state will result in driving that low cell to 0V or lower. The copper anodes in the cell dissolve pretty quickly when voltage gets that low. The copper goes into solution in the electrolyte. When charge energy is applied, that Cu plates onto the cathodes, forming dendrites that can internally short the cell over time. Usually, an LFP cell will just get hot and not hold a charge once this has happened, but it all depends on the severity of the short formed and what the SOC of the cell is when it "breaks over" to a dangerously low impedance. Roulette.
 
SunKing said:
As LFP discharges the internal resistance goes down thus increasing efficiency.
SunKing said:
Internal resistance is essentially FLAT from 100 to 0% SOC

AC Impedance Based State of Charge Dynamic Modeling of a LiFePO4 Battery for Hybrid Electric Vehicle Applications

Please note from pp.5 (original pp.471) Figure 7 "Nyquist plot of AC impedance at various value of SOC" and Table III "Parameter of the Equivalent Circuit"

I have not seen experimental results to challenge the basic premise of this and similar results. Unless there is some refutation of this, I do not see how you can come to any meaningful conclusions if your basic assumptions are inverse of the findings. Could you provide us with your professional credentialing applicable to this domain? Perhaps you have obtained a certificate in Dowsing or Divining Rod application, and hence our confusion as to the perplexing results you are sharing with us. edit: Actually I see now your New SunKing intro thread that gives us some info about your background, that's good, now I have some idea - and a ham to boot! Sweet! It does appear however that your professional experience extends to the use of LFP batteries as an end user, and not on the research, development, and manufacturing side of things - which is where wb9k is at.

As to the region of the cell SOC where you do the balancing, I do not find it is very interesting. Balancing is most commonly done by instrument referencing voltage to infer SOC - this voltage reference is most exaggerated at the top and bottom of SOC. Top balancing is a easy way to perform the procedure (one that has an indefinite time to completion on a new or unbalanced pack) in an automated fashion, without leaving the user of the battery in a condition where the battery is not available for use. It is a practical consideration.
 
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