brushed vs. brushless motors

dkw12002

10 W
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Jan 11, 2012
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I keep hearing about brushed and brushless motors and the concensus seems to be brushless is better...less to go wrong, yet I haven't found any problems relating to brushes. The problem seem to be related to controllers, wiring, batteries, chargers and burning up motors. Anyone ever had to replace brushes on their e-bike motor?

My family owned a corner grocery store and when the store was built they installed a big fan, like an attic fan which they ran every summer day and night. It had a brushed motor...AC of course. The thing was still running 30 years later when they sold the store and had never been serviced.
 
The brushed fan motor has lasted forever because it's overbuilt. Try to get 2kW from it and see how long its brushes last.
 
Is that what would fail, the brushes, or would it be bearing failure from over-heating? It appears brushless motors burn up too.
 
99% of brushed motors have a blower built into them, or at the very least vents. such as you see on your skillsaw, drill, grinder, air conditioner, fans, etc.

A brushed hubmotor on the other hand, is sealed up. The brushes are basicly a small version of an arc lamp, and make heat from about 20% of the power fed in. Add that to the normal inefficiency of a typical motor, and you are approaching making heat from 40% of your power.

Fine if your bike runs on sla's, and will run out of battery long before it gets very hot. Ebike lesson 2 for me was that a pingbattery has 20 mile range while the brushed motor has about 10 mile range before it overheats in 100F weather. It wasn't long before I smoked a motor as spring ended.

Some of this problem can be eliminated by using a gear drive with a ventilated motor. I just aquired a Ford Think bike with a bottom bracket motor. Designed for sla's, guess what? They decided a non ventilated motor was best. :lol:

Bottom line, a brushed hubmotor is only good if you are going for short rides. One really nice thing about a brushed hubmotor, is if your controller fails it supplies battery voltage straight to the motor. Brake cutoffs won't fix that problem either.
 
I have been using brushed motors on my ebike projects since the mid nineties and they have done well for me. I limit the maximum current and that seems to keep the brushes good. I do that too--send the motor power through the gears.
 
Sure, they will run fine if used within thier limits. Unfortunately for me, the limits in desert weather were pretty limited. I was not overvolting, nor doing anything all that extreme. Simply running in the hot weather at 700w for more than 10 miles was smoking brushes. Once smoked, the brushes become much larger arc lamps, and the brush holder would melt, along with other damage inside. At ambient temps below 90F the motor was fine, above that, borderline, above 100F doomed.

Had I been riding 15 mph at 400w, of course the motor would have gone the distance. The limits were just too limited for me.
 
Quite all right. What you say is true because my corded electric lawn mower had abused brushes and commutator from the high current the electric braking caused. I wasn't jabbing at ya or anything--was just saying in general that I like brushed motors.
 
I wouldn't mind playing around with an Ampflow motor. http://ampflow.com/ampflow_motors.htm
 
S'ok. Your climate is quite different. One reason I did destruction testing on the brushless motors was because I live in nearly the worst climate for hubmotors. Once I proved what a 9 continent motor could take at normal kit wattages in 110f weather, I stopped worrying so much about taking longer rides. We still smoke em easy at 3000 watts though.

In this climate I've smoked lots and lots of brushed AC motors. Saws, grinders, sanders, none of em can take continuous duty in this climate even with the blower in the motor. I used to take advantage of the craftman garantee on table saws twice a year. Always the brushes would be what died. Generally enough commutator damage to ruin it for good. But I never could smoke a skill worm drive saw. Overbuilt for sure.
 
Solcar said:
... --was just saying in general that I like brushed motors.
In your view, what are the advantages of brushed over brusless motors? I can see only 2: Lower cost and simpler controller. What else did I miss?
 
Whew, it's hot down there, considering the toll it takes on power tools :!:
 
SamTexas said:
Solcar said:
... --was just saying in general that I like brushed motors.
In your view, what are the advantages of brushed over brusless motors? I can see only 2: Lower cost and simpler controller. What else did I miss?

Those are my favorite advantages. Another thing that I like is how the voltage to the windings being mechanically synced to the armature position tends to increase goof-proofness, and smoothness, especially from a stop. Another thing is that if the controller were to fail, the bike could potentially have some assist if power were able to be switched to the motor after the bike were moving. It would be a bad idea to give the motor full voltage from a stop in that case, however. Yet, some people use brushed motors to make ebikes that don't have a controller. My first one used a wall switch that I could turn on once I was going. That was about 15 yrs ago.
 
Like anything in life, each has pros and cons. Ill sum up what I know:

A brushed motor is quite simple, in fact it does not even need a controller. Give it juice across 2 wires and it starts spinning, reverse the current and it spins the other way. You don't need any electronics unless you need to modulate current for a throttle like in an ebike. Also brushed motors do not need rare earth permanent magnets, as coil electromagnets can be used instead. Changes to the stator magnetic poles happen through the brushes and communicator, which cause friction resistance, and also a fair amount of sparking and arching, limiting the max RPM the motor can produce, generating heat, EMI, and also causing efficiency losses. The brushes also wear out over time causing the engine to run rough and requiring replacement and maintenance. Brushed designs tend to need vents which makes them less suitable for wet environments.

Brushless motors are more more complex. The brushless design requires rare earth magnets on either the stator, or fixed around the stator depending on outrunner or inrunner design. The brushless motor also requires complex electronic controllers since the phase, and magnetic pole timing is done electronically (as opposed to mechanically in the brushed design). The upside to brushless motors is they are typically more efficient, as there is no friction on the stator except for the bearings, which allows the brushless design to generate very high RPM, pretty much untouchable by brushed designs. Brushless designs tent to be most efficient at higher RPM where they develop the most torque, which is why it is common to see reduction transmissions used depending on the application. Brushless motors are completely maintenance free.

This post comes to you in part by Mr Ruele, my electronics teacher in High School, for making us design and build brushed motors from scratch! (best teacher I ever had)
 
Brushed motors under spec deliver a simple and reliable solution. My only complaint when used as designed is that if/when brush replacement becomes necessary it's usually a messy job.

However, most of us will eventually turn up the volts/current and trouble starts. Brushed motors don't like operating much above design parameters.

BLDC seem to be more tolerant of abuse and the controller provides more operational variation.
 
My only complaint when used as designed is that if/when brush replacement becomes necessary it's usually a messy job.

I've never had to replace brushes but I've pulled the end off of a few motors to have a look and it's not messy or hard. Unless you've got a stuck screw or something, it's a 5min job that any 10yr old or mom could do. If the motor is poorly designed and buried in a machine it can be a little more complex and messy, I guess, but replacing the brushes on an ebike should be a 5min job if you've already got the replacement brushes in-hand.


The way I see it, there's virtually zero difference between a good PM brush motor and a decent brushless motor. Besides physical vs. electrical commutation, the magnetic material tends to be the biggest difference; ferrite vs. high grade neos...

I bet lots of PM brush motors can be turned into brushless motors by simply removing the brushes and running phase wires in. The can will spin, rather than the shaft, but this makes most any PM brush motor look a lot like a very fast(!) brushless hub motor. There may be physical limitations like a small shaft diameter that makes it practically impossible to drill the hole for the wires, and I dunno if a normal brushless controller would work, necessarily, but I think you can imagine just the motor part and see what I mean.

Oh, I've seen at least one axial motor that was a combo machine; brushed and brushless. That'd be a neat motor to test because, iirc, it was really built as an alternator for a 12-18 foot windmill (iirc they only motor it on the brushes for demos), which could mean it spins about the right speed that it could be converted to a hub motor.

Or something. :?
 
Taken directly from wikipedia: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor )

Brushless versus Brushed motor

Brushed DC motors have been in commercial use since 1886.[1][2] BLDC motors, however, have only been commercially possible since 1962.[3][4]
Limitations of brushed DC motors overcome by BLDC motors include lower efficiency and susceptibility of the commutator assembly to mechanical wear and consequent need for servicing, at the cost of potentially less rugged and more complex and expensive control electronics. BLDC motors develop maximum torque when stationary[5] and have linearly decreasing torque with increasing speed as shown in the adjacent figure.


Brushless DC Electric Motor Torque-Speed Characteristics
A BLDC motor has permanent magnets which rotate and a fixed armature, eliminating the problems of connecting current to the moving armature. An electronic controller replaces the brush/commutator assembly of the brushed DC motor, which continually switches the phase to the windings to keep the motor turning. The controller performs similar timed power distribution by using a solid-state circuit rather than the brush/commutator system.


The interface circuitry between a digital controller and motor. The waveforms show multiple transitions between high and low voltage levels, approximations to a trapezoid or sinusoid which reduce harmonic losses. The circuit compensates for the induction of the windings, regulates power and monitors temperature.

BLDC motors offer several advantages over brushed DC motors, including more torque per weight, more torque per watt (increased efficiency), increased reliability, reduced noise, longer lifetime (no brush and commutator erosion), elimination of ionizing sparks from the commutator, and overall reduction of electromagnetic interference (EMI). With no windings on the rotor, they are not subjected to centrifugal forces, and because the windings are supported by the housing, they can be cooled by conduction, requiring no airflow inside the motor for cooling. This in turn means that the motor's internals can be entirely enclosed and protected from dirt or other foreign matter.

The maximum power that can be applied to a BLDC motor is exceptionally high, limited almost exclusively by heat, which can weaken the magnets. (Magnets demagnetize at high temperatures, the Curie point, and for neodymium-iron-boron magnets this temperature is lower than for other types.) A BLDC motor's main disadvantage is higher cost, which arises from two issues. First, BLDC motors require complex electronic speed controllers to run. Brushed DC motors can be regulated by a comparatively simple controller, such as a rheostat (variable resistor). However, this reduces efficiency because power is wasted in the rheostat. Second, some practical uses have not been well developed in the commercial sector. For example, in the Radio Control (RC) hobby arena, brushless motors are often hand-wound while brushed motors are usually machine-wound. (Nevertheless, see "Applications", below.)

BLDC motors are often more efficient at converting electricity into mechanical power than brushed DC motors. This improvement is largely due to the absence of electrical and friction losses due to brushes. The enhanced efficiency is greatest in the no-load and low-load region of the motor's performance curve. Under high mechanical loads, BLDC motors and high-quality brushed motors are comparable in efficiency.

AC induction motors require induction of magnetic field in the rotor by the rotating field of the stator; this results in the magnetic and electric fields being out of phase. The phase difference requires greater current and current losses to achieve power. BLDC motors are microprocessor-controlled to keep the stator current in phase with the permanent magnets of the rotor, requiring less current for the same effect and therefore resulting in greater efficiency.
In general, manufacturers use brush-type DC motors when low system cost is a priority but brushless motors to fulfill requirements such as maintenance-free operation, high speeds, and operation in explosive environments where sparking could be hazardous.
 
REdiculous said:
I've never had to replace brushes...

When they're worn out there's a lot more dust to deal with. Of course, a solvent will clean up but it's just a mess IMO. And, I've replaced a lot of worn out brushes.
 
The 30 year old ceiling fan you referenced uses 120V, and as a result it needs VERY few AMPS to run, not only that, the whole package uses a LOT less power than the average bike.

Brushed motors can have a very simple and cheap controller, but they operate in a narrow voltage range. If you buy a brushless E-bike motor, you can start out using a cheap 36V battery pack. When you have more money, you can upgrade to 48V, 60V, 72V. Its possible to MAKE a brushed motor and controller that run on 72V-100V, but I don't know of any that are available to buy.

I've heard of 24V brushed motors being run on 36V, and also 36V brushed motors being run at 48V, but if you raise the voltage much more than that, the brushes will wear out much faster.

McDesign got a pile of brushed parts dirt cheap and put together several fun projects for his kids. Nothing wrong with a brushed project, but there are limits to what you can do with them. With brushed, ALWAYS have a kill switch handy if the controller.throttle shorts in the ON position....
 
Given that cost and simpler control are the only two advantages for brushed motors, I would definitely choose brushless motors. Efficiency and longevity are way more attractive especially on an ebike where battery is usually the highest component cost in addition to the limited space available on the bicycle.
 
On the other hand, there do seem to be a lot of controller issues and burned up brushless motors, but I guess that goes with stressing the motors to get maximum speed. The Ezip uses a geared external, brushed 450 watt motor connected to the rear wheel by a chain drive. It is a better hill climber than my Amped bike with the brushless front hub motor at 36V 750 watts probably due to the reduction gears. So far I haven't burned up anything, but I have warmed up some motors. I agree, all else being equal, I would go with a brushless motor, but it looks like the applications are different in many cases.
 
My Aprilia Enjoys run a sealed and brushed industrial motor at 1300W wonderfully. They were released at 200W rated.

Everyone else on the thread seems to like theirs.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=18505

For me, the smooth starting torque and simplicity of a 2 wire in/out controller was the simplest way to get into ebiking. I recently opened one up, and replaced the brushes. Really simple. I just took two spare brushes from an angle grinder and shaped them on a bench grinder in about a minute.

But I have since found them same size on ebay.com.au for 5 bucks delivered from asia to Australia.

Ok , brushed will never be quite as efficient. But they are simple and the motors abound for the DIY ebike builder. A nice way to get into ebikes without 3 phase hall sensor syncing and multiwire controllers....

I have heard of a few people making e-cars and using brushed forklift motors. The magnets got so hot they demagnetised. Monitoring temp of the motor is even more important than for 3 phase I guess.
 
spinningmagnets said:
...ALWAYS have a kill switch handy if the controller.throttle shorts in the ON position....

This is a good point
 
Good example of a well ventilated brushed motor. They defintitely can be designed for lots of power without melting. Nearly all golf carts are another good example of a good brushed motor system that has worked well for decades. But newer carts are starting to appear with brushless motors. I think a lot of stuff will head this way since the main impediment is gone. (magnets too expensive) The trend is definitely heading towards efficiency more and more, and brushes just waste some energy in the commutator spark.
 
dogman said:
Good example of a well ventilated brushed motor.
And 93% efficiency.

At the high-end, brushies will come in behind brushless in performance.

But for cost-effective simplicity, with power and efficiency, brushed motors are still good options.

[youtube]zOTewHnwVGI[/youtube]
 
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