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My kick scooter project

ElectricGod said:
200BHP in a little car like that. It had to be pretty fast. What was your 0-60 time?

Between 6-7 seconds depending on the temp and dampness they only had little 13" wheels with 185 tyres so they struggled at the best of times it would do 150mph and the aero drag sound was unreal the doors would open at the top very poor drag co, The ace up its sleeve was 30-120mph shock a lot of bigger cars.
 
Ianhill said:
ElectricGod said:
200BHP in a little car like that. It had to be pretty fast. What was your 0-60 time?

Between 6-7 seconds depending on the temp and dampness they only had little 13" wheels with 185 tyres so they struggled at the best of times it would do 150mph and the aero drag sound was unreal the doors would open at the top very poor drag co, The ace up its sleeve was 30-120mph shock a lot of bigger cars.

So basically an average car with decent power?
 
:lol: you be like jelly getting out.
It weighs 850kg, thats power a normal car could only dream of the small wheels don't accelerate well off the mark but give the car massive turning ability, drag strips are fun but its point to point speed I like pikes peak etc good day to you sir.
 
Ianhill said:
:lol: you be like jelly getting out.
It weighs 850kg, thats power a normal car could only dream of the small wheels don't accelerate well off the mark but give the car massive turning ability, drag strips are fun but its point to point speed I like pikes peak etc good day to you sir.

Yeah I'm sure it's fast. Definately better than anything I've ever owned.
 
Hey, nice scooter.
I have one of these too.
I was hoping you could possibly give me some information on your scooter.

1) do you know what the amp draw of this scooter is with the stock batteries and the voltage drop at full load? I am trying to build a custom scooter from the ground up and I am trying to size the motor. I know this scooter is 1600W @48V nominal, so I am assuming 12.7x4=50.8V. 1600/50.8=30.5A.
So it comes stock with 4-12AH batteries in series. We are trying to draw 30.5A and this battery bank is only rated for 12AH. So what I am getting at is, what is the total power (W) that I am actually getting with the stock setup.

Did you add the hill climb kit? I actually got more speed with the hill climb kit because the gearing was so poor from the get go.

2) do you know the thread diameter and pitch for the rear hub free wheel?
3) did you have to mod your suspension at all or did it work from the box?
4) would you be interested on checking out my scooter build when I get going on it and possibly giving a little help?
 
james.kehren said:
Hey, nice scooter.
I have one of these too.
I was hoping you could possibly give me some information on your scooter.

1) do you know what the amp draw of this scooter is with the stock batteries and the voltage drop at full load? I am trying to build a custom scooter from the ground up and I am trying to size the motor. I know this scooter is 1600W @48V nominal, so I am assuming 12.7x4=50.8V. 1600/50.8=30.5A.
So it comes stock with 4-12AH batteries in series. We are trying to draw 30.5A and this battery bank is only rated for 12AH. So what I am getting at is, what is the total power (W) that I am actually getting with the stock setup.

Did you add the hill climb kit? I actually got more speed with the hill climb kit because the gearing was so poor from the get go.

2) do you know the thread diameter and pitch for the rear hub free wheel?
3) did you have to mod your suspension at all or did it work from the box?
4) would you be interested on checking out my scooter build when I get going on it and possibly giving a little help?

Hi James,

Where did you buy your scooter from?
Mine came with a 30 amp fuse. It blew within minutes of my first ride...or 1440 watts. I thne walked over to a nearby autoparts store and bought 40 amp fuses. I never blew on of those so I'm guessing 30 amps was just a little under what was needed to keep from blowing fuses. Later I added a watt meter and saw that I pulled 30-40 amps during full acceleration. Later upgrading to a more powerful controller, that got me to 45 amps, but the motor would get pretty warm without a blower on it and I was already close to magnetic saturation anyway.

If you want, since you are talking about batteries, just abandon the SLA batteries. They are going to have very short lives and might get you 10 miles range when they are brand new. I had my scooter less than a month and was already building 12S LIPO packs. They petered out fast! Right at first, they got me 10 miles, but after a month that was down to 7 miles. I bought my scooter for the purpose of replacing my car and to give me a daily rider. So keep in mind that I was riding 10 miles every day. 7 miles was not going to cut it for me. Anyway, the SLA batteries are virtually worthless for regular use. I quickly bought a bunch of LIPO cells and made up 12S packs with BMS in each one. There were 4 LIPO packs and they got me 24 miles range. This was doable range. That got me 2 trips to work and home with a little extra range. Later I wanted more speed and had purchased a motor controller good for 84 volts so I rebuilt my 12S packs into 20S packs, purchased a better BMS that could handle 20S and also bought more of the same LIPO cells to make another 20S pack. I retired those LIPO packs just a few weeks ago. They were pretty close to en of life anyway.

The wiring in these scooters is shit. If you pull out that blue panel inside the battery bay, the motor controller is stuck to it...not getting any air. It will overheat. Just remove that metal plate and remount the motor controller to the sloped inside surface of the battery bay. Also the phase wire bullet connectors and power connectors on the controller are crap. Get some 6mm RC bullet connectors and replace all of them. The phase wire connectors are just going to overheat and burn out because they are not designed for these current levels. 6mm bullets are overkill, but they also wont fail ever either. The wiring for the lights, horn, brakes are all crap. In my scooter they were twisted together and then partly wrapped in electrical tape. I didn't notice until I got a short from two exposed wires that melted together. There is no logical reason why they used such crappy wire, it cost mere penny's more to use high temp wire and then properly connect them together. I got on ebay and found 8 and 10 conductor high temp wire and replaced all of it everywhere. Also, the wiring for some stuff is backwards of other things. Typically in DC powered systems you switch the positive wire on or off. In my scooter, some stuff switched via the ground wire and other stuff via the +V wire. Needless to say...what a complete mess! I rewired everything to switch via the +V wire. I also added a wiring block so that I could distribute battery power to one place and then connect lights and whatnot and switches to the wiring block. Later I added more stuff and needed more points of contact so I used a wiring block with more connection points. I documented all the wires and connection points so that figuring things out in the future if there were issues would not be a problem.

Gearing...LOL...OK for the initial model of these scooters, they come with t8F chain and sprockets. I replaced all of it with 219 KART chain and sprockets. I was experimenting with more power and t8f is good for like 2000 watts max. Even staying within that limit, I broke the chain quite a few times. I just got used to carrying a chain breaker with me all the time and some extra chain if I lost a link. I suggest you consider moving to 219 after a while. The sprockets come in every size you can imagine and they are quite inexpensive compared to t8f and much more available and can handle 10,000 watts. You wont break 219 and it's so much quieter than t8f and actually cheaper than t8f. Before I found out about 219, I bought all the motor driver sprocket sizes that are made (9, 10, 11, 13 and 15 tooth) and several wheel sprockets of different sizes (54, 64 and 72 tooth). I was obviously experimenting with what was the best gearing option. I wanted the best acceleration I could get and the best top speed and the least amount of current draw. I never bought the hill climbing kit persay, but I have all the parts that make it up. I also bought more chain. Essentially what you are seeing is the gearing is sub-optimal since the choices are limited. The hill climbing kit just raises the gearing ratio a little. If I remember right, it's just a longer chain and a bigger wheel sprocket. You were originally running at 4.9:1 or 11 tooth to 54 tooth. With the hill climbing sprocket I think that got you 5.8:1. All BLDC motors run better at higher RPMs than at lower RPMs so yes...you probably are seeing better performance at 5.8:1. There's an ideal gearing for your scooter and motor. Also, larger driver gears make less noise than do the smaller ones. IE: Use the largest gears you can get and then experiment for the best gearing. There is a balance between going too high and going too low with the gearing ratio. The motor can only deliver so much torque and then you are in magnetic saturation. The motor just gets hotter, uses more current and wont deliver more torque. So that means, you need to run the motor as close to maximum torque as you can, but not beyond that. So when experimenting with gearing, a watt meter is really useful. You can see how many amps you are drawing and then adjust accordingly. There is an ideal gearing ratio that keeps the motor under magnetic saturation and gives you the best performance for the least amount of current draw. I later upgraded to the 2000 watt version of the motor and the gearing for the 1500 watt version was not optimal. I found the best gearing ratio for my set up and then bought the largest sprockets that would give me that ratio. It's less stressful on the chain and definitely quieter. But seriously, just get away from t8f and go with 219.

Regarding the freewheel threads. There are only a couple of sizes of threads. Pretty much if you look anywhere for freewheels that aren't for bicycles, you will have have the correct size. There are the cheap Chinese freewheels. They have no seals on the bearings and they get dirt in them easily. I have 3 or 4 of them and every month or so of daily use I was pulling the freewheel apart to wash out all the dirt. My solution was to always have a spare on hand so I could quickly swap out the dirty one to be cleaned up later. I had this great idea of adding a grease nipple, but there's no place to add one. That way I could just force the old grease out. Anyway, the real solution was to just abandon the cheap freewheels and get one that has seals. I've opened it up once in the past year, but it was perfectly clean inside. That was the best $80 I have spent in a long time! To remove the freewheel you will need a freewheel socket. Using anything else to try and remove them is a waste of time and you will just damage things.

Suspension...IE shocks...the front shock was too weak. Going up on rounded curbs would bottom it out and grind the front end into the tire. I replaced the front shock with a stiffer one. The ride in front is a lot harder now, but I never bottom out the suspension anymore either. The rear shocks are pretty important. I have yet to find any more of the 2000 pound shocks it originally came with and 1500 pound shocks are not stiff enough despite being readily available. In either case, the shocks wont last forever. Something will give out and you will need to replace them. I found 1500 pound shocks on ebay and then compressed the 2000 pound springs and put them on the 1500 pound pistons. You will probably need to add some kind of spacer as the bolt holes tend to be too large in the ends of the shocks. I use a piece of copper pipe and cut it to fit inside the holes in the ends of the shocks to take up the extra room so the bolts don't slop around in the holes. The ends of the shocks are aluminum and the copper pipe is of similar hardness. It holds up well enough.

Post up a thread, show what you are working on.

By the way look in my signature line for my battery build thread. If you have access to lots of used laptop batteries they are a great source for cheap power. I work for a software company and we all have laptops. There are loads of used up battery packs that I randomly have access to. Some of the cells are still good, while others are used up. You just keep the good ones and recycle the rest. It took a while, but I eventually had enough 18650 cells from used laptop packs to power my scooter. It took 240 of them...which meant quite a few laptop packs got taken apart to get the good ones. Most folks spend $1000 or so on batteries if they are serious about it, but the used laptop cells cost me nothing but time to acquire and then I made battery holders for them.
 
ElectricGod said:
your welcome...glad I could post all that stuff for you and then not even get a thanks for my effort.

Nice update :), Maybe trump being elected has pushed him over the edge :evil: grabbed his scooter like a mad man with out a care put his high gear on climbed the largest mountain he could find and tried his new idea to fly with a electric scooter and parachute :roll:

Or he just could be busy. I give information to make the world a better place I need no thanks to know I done a good thing, others can read this thread too. We not all cut from the same cloth and a mothers morals may not be passed down, I'm glad I had an amazing upbringing teaching me right from wrong say please and thank you but never be someone's fool.
 
Ianhill said:
ElectricGod said:
your welcome...glad I could post all that stuff for you and then not even get a thanks for my effort.

Nice update :), Maybe trump being elected has pushed him over the edge :evil: grabbed his scooter like a mad man with out a care put his high gear on climbed the largest mountain he could find and tried his new idea to fly with a electric scooter and parachute :roll:

Or he just could be busy. I give information to make the world a better place I need no thanks to know I done a good thing, others can read this thread too. We not all cut from the same cloth and a mothers morals may not be passed down, I'm glad I had an amazing upbringing teaching me right from wrong say please and thank you but never be someone's fool.

Yes...all of the above...
I sold a motor controller to a guy a while ago on ES and he gave me a wrong address despite confirming it with him. As a result it eventually got returned to me. I contacted him multiple times to see if he could intercept it at the post office on his end. I never heard from him. Now it's been 3+ months since then and I still haven't heard from him again. I have his money and the controller. I've tried him again several times and nada. If I paid for something and didn't get it, I would be wanting to know why. Who knows, maybe he's sitting in a jail cell somewhere in California.
 
Well...apparently I am a glutton for deals. I found an Alien Power 50kv 12090 outrunner for $250 so I jumped on it. That's an 18Kw outrunner! I have no idea what I will do with it yet, but hey...when the muse strikes which it will eventually do, then there will be something with 2 wheels under it going really fast with me on it's seat.

s-l1600_zpscootuc80.jpg
 
That things a monster, its designed for a prop to get 18kw out of it, But it should run 10kw with a sprocket and natural convection with no heat problems, Because its designed to fit a prop straight on there would be a fair amount of standoff on the sprocket from the motor but means the windings are highly visible it would at least give a bit of distance to make a guard to keep chain oil etc out.
 
Ianhill said:
That things a monster, its designed for a prop to get 18kw out of it, But it should run 10kw with a sprocket and natural convection with no heat problems, Because its designed to fit a prop straight on there would be a fair amount of standoff on the sprocket from the motor but means the windings are highly visible it would at least give a bit of distance to make a guard to keep chain oil etc out.

I plan to remove that prop extension. It's just held on via some screws. Then I want to push the motor shaft out the bottom of the motor so I can drive from the bottom of the motor where there's the most support.
 
If the extension is removable then that's a very nice motor not gonna get 18kw anymore compact than that outrunners are the best when it comes down power density but struggle at being as stable as an inrunner at very high rpm, Perfect choice for your needs make a one man rocket
 
Ianhill said:
If the extension is removable then that's a very nice motor not gonna get 18kw anymore compact than that outrunners are the best when it comes down power density but struggle at being as stable as an inrunner at very high rpm, Perfect choice for your needs make a one man rocket

At 50kv this motor wont be doing but 5000 rpm at most. I plan to add halls to it.
 
The Alien Power 12090 motor arrived today. There's some minor scratches on the bell and the stand-offs, but otherwise it looks pretty much unused. The stand-offs have screw marks on them where they were obviously bolted down. I've spun up the motor on a couple of controllers at 12 volts and 48 volts. Everything worked fine. My CA80-160 outrunner seemed so large until I got this beastie...now it seems small. LOL. At the lowest RPM/servo setting I can go on my Turnigy Monster controller with the CA80-160 connected, I can squeeze the bell a little and stall the motor. The 12090 at the same servo setting just keeps on turning. I can't squeeze the motor bell hard enough to stall it out before the friction makes my hand hot. It's definitely strong!

These two stand-offs are the worst thing on the motor. Otherwise it's just minor scratches
Alien%20Power%2012090%2050kv%20outrunner%202_zpsn3jtsz4p.jpg

Alien%20Power%2012090%2050kv%20outrunner%201_zpsrpxee4aa.jpg



Adding halls to this motor will be pretty easy. Going through the cable port with 5 small hall wires will be simple. Probably the hardest thing will be pulling off the bell to get at the stator underneath. Even that I think it will be pretty easy. There's a couple of set screws holding the bell to the shaft and a few retaining screws for the skirt bearing and then it's free. I have a small puller that will get the bell loose.

wire%20port_zps2gc9vz2c.jpg

Field%20windings_zpscyh4dbrf.jpg



At some point I'm going to rewind this motor. There's lots of room on those teeth for more copper. The individual strands are quite small. I think some larger gauge wire and then filling those teeth with a little more copper would be good. As you can see the stator teeth have lots of empty space on them. I have a variety of wire sizes waiting for the spare cash to be bought and then I will have lots of wire for rewinds.

Top%20Windings_zpsaehvptgh.jpg

bottom%20windings_zpsvasnoit9.jpg



Just a little size comparison between motors. An AStro Flight 3220 on the left, Turnigy CA80-160 in the middle and the 12090 on the right. This is in the Alien Power second to largest bell size. They have several 120mm motors of which the 120100 is the same diameter as this motor, but with longer stator teeth and magnets and handles 25Kw. Then there is the 150mm motors or 150100 which handles 35Kw. Anyway, this thing is a beast, but geez 35Kw has got to be really strong! It looks like the stator teeth are the same size in all 3 of these motors and the magnets are nearly identical dimensions. It's just a matter of how many magnets and stators are in each motor and of course the 3220 has really strong magnets in it as well.

Motor%20comparison_zpsgw7mwjb8.jpg
 
I read somewhere that 35kw is about enough juice to power a family hatchback at a decent pace. They use multiple thin strands to keep skin effect low as these motors can be switching quite fast at higher rpm specially with all the poles. There's room for copper though in there loads of it, Your getting into some serious power when Big Bertha is getting lively god help.
 
E-God, would you please send me some info on your aluminum wheels: manufacturer, where purchased, how you chose your hubs, etc.

Also, where did you get your 219 chain/sprockets for the new hub?

Thanks

BTW: Great Posts!
 
E-ScooterDude said:
E-God, would you please send me some info on your aluminum wheels: manufacturer, where purchased, how you chose your hubs, etc.

Also, where did you get your 219 chain/sprockets for the new hub?

Thanks

BTW: Great Posts!

I have an inrunner, not a hub motor. LigntningRods or Azusa Engineering can hook you up for motor driver sprockets. Also LR can hook you up with an adapter for the driver sprockets. Whell sprockets in 219 can be purchased all over the place. Just google for KART sprockets. You can find them on ebay and elsewhere.

http://www.azusaeng.com/
http://www.tal-ko.com/

Those wheels are for the Monkey Z50 moped. They come in a variety of designs. Just search for them on ebay...that's where I found them. They aren't an exact fit and you wont be able to use your factory brake rotors with them. These are well made wheels...not the light weight badly cast factory wheels. You will have to do some adapting to get the wheel centered correctly between the drop outs and to get other details straightened out. Contact LightningRods to make you a 50 tooth wheel sprocket. He makes the sprockets already. I just asked him to adapt one to my wheel bolt pattern. Also he has an adapter plate for standard KART sprockets that will work with a flywheel.

It looks like you have the same ride as me, just in white. I don't know about your factory rims, but mine were wobbly and out of round. I replaced them because they were so crappy.
 
Ianhill said:
I read somewhere that 35kw is about enough juice to power a family hatchback at a decent pace. They use multiple thin strands to keep skin effect low as these motors can be switching quite fast at higher rpm specially with all the poles. There's room for copper though in there loads of it, Your getting into some serious power when Big Bertha is getting lively god help.

18kw is about 20hp. So 35kw would be about 40hp...yup that will run a car. So 20hp ought to run a moped or small motor cycle pretty nicely too. Maybe I should just convert my Giant mountain bike to electric. I think 18kw ought to get a bicycle moving along really well. Geez...imagine that...a bicycle with 18kw of power on it. I'm pretty sure burning rubber would be an understatement.
 
Thanks for the info and links. I spent a lot of time looking around the internet and felt that the smart thing to do was contact you.

I apologize for the confusion but I know you have an inrunner setup. By "hubs" I meant the wheel hubs that mount the wheels to the axles. Getting everything to line up, getting the right bolt patterns, spacing, etc.... looked like a big job and knowing exactly what to order would be a huge help.

I'm not going fast enough yet to reach the stability issues that you did with your factory wheels, but you know that won't last too long. The "need for speed" is strong =)

I want to thank you for all the great info in this thread. You come up with, and test, some of the best ideas. I too feel that this platform is an excellent one to get started with. The huge battery box, robust construction, and large tires were my attraction to this model.

From what I can tell, the "2017 48V" model incorporates some of your ideas that you passed along to HyperPowerSports.

I have some pretty big plans, mostly with off the shelf stuff. When I get further along I want to post my progress.
 
E-ScooterDude said:
Thanks for the info and links. I spent a lot of time looking around the internet and felt that the smart thing to do was contact you.

I apologize for the confusion but I know you have an inrunner setup. By "hubs" I meant the wheel hubs that mount the wheels to the axles. Getting everything to line up, getting the right bolt patterns, spacing, etc.... looked like a big job and knowing exactly what to order would be a huge help.

I'm not going fast enough yet to reach the stability issues that you did with your factory wheels, but you know that won't last too long. The "need for speed" is strong =)

I want to thank you for all the great info in this thread. You come up with, and test, some of the best ideas. I too feel that this platform is an excellent one to get started with. The huge battery box, robust construction, and large tires were my attraction to this model.

From what I can tell, the "2017 48V" model incorporates some of your ideas that you passed along to HyperPowerSports.

I have some pretty big plans, mostly with off the shelf stuff. When I get further along I want to post my progress.

Start a thread as soon as you have some progress. I had already built my own LIPO packs and dealt with several problems in the scooter when I started this thread. I agree this is a decent platform to build on, but if my original scooter was all that it would ever be, well it would still be usable. I'm sure you're using the factory controller right now. Below is what I would do differently as far as order of development on this ride.

1. Strip out all the wiring and replace with high temp wire that terminated in a wiring block in the battery bay.

2. Upgrade battery wiring to 6awg and connect up via 8mm bullets. Add a power distribution block, add a contactor, add a watt meter. Avoid using a fuse block...what a waste of space for a marginal safety benefit that created reliability issues. If you have an over load the BMS and motor controller will cut out and worst case you can open the contactor. Fuses don't take surges at all, they just blow so if you use fuses you have to build with maximums plus a lot more in mind which pretty much makes them useless.

3. Upgrade phase wiring to 8awg. This one is particularly important. I originally ran 14 awg with the factory controller, then moved to 10awg and finally settled at 8awg. The smaller wires just couldn't handle the phase current and got pretty hot. 8 awg never gets warm.

4. Upgrade and terminate the phase wires in 5.5, 6 or 8mm bullets. These bullets are super reliable, cheap and handle whatever you throw at them. 6mm bullets are fine and uber cheap, but I prefer 5.5mm bullets because they are almost 2X longer and handle more current as a result of the greater contact surface area. Also, the 5.5mm bullets grab better than the 6mm so they stay together better. Regardless, I solder on the bullets, heat shrink everything and then when I make up the connection, wrap electrical tape around the connection to keep water out and to avoid any possibility of a short. Here's a pic of the different bullets I use. From left to right...5.5mm, 6mm, 8mm and 10mm. The 6mm seem so small compared to 5.5mm. You can see why I prefer them. 8mm bullets are really hard to pull apart and 10mm even more so. My scooter has 8mm bullets for phase and battery power.
Bullet%20connectors_zps9gxw2ycq.png


5. Upgrade to 20S. 12S or 48 volts is fine if you only want to do 25-30mph, but for more speed you need more voltage. Motor torque is a fixed quantity and is dependent on magnet and field winding strength. IE: You will only get what the motor can produce no matter how many amps you push at it. Torque drops off really fast once you reach the top RPM's that the motors KV can produce. A 50kv motor on 50 volts will max out at 2500 rpm because it can't produce torque above that RPM. However, that same motor at 82 volts will generate torque all the way up to 4200 rpm. That means a higher wheel speed and we all like going faster. Assuming the motors torque can overcome the greater wind resistance at higher speeds, then the motor at 12S will get you about 30mph and at 20S will get you about 45mph.

6. More battery voltage means you need a controller that can handle it. I really like the Kelly KBS72221E trapezoidal controller. It works with every motor I have tried that has halls and it will handle 120 phase amps. I don't really care about trapezoidal vs sinusoidal. You won't notice the difference on an inrunner or outrunner, only on a hub motor because of their very low RPMs. So just save your money and get a trapezoidal controller. I've just purchased a grinfineon 40 amp controller, but they are finicky running sensorless. They do run up to 88 volts and 120 phase amps and can run sensorless and sensored. I got it yesterday and in sensorless mode it ran 1 of 5 motors I have. The manual says it is good for 28000 eRPM in sensorless mode, but I was running at 48 volts and none of my motors were even close to that. IMHO...this controller is worthless in sensorless mode. Also, it has no settings so you can't limit battery or phase amps. Just get the Kelly and ignore the Kelly haters. They are better than the Grinfineon because it's programmable and I really trust it to do the job. I've been using a KBS72221e for a year now and it just works on everything and is very powerful. You pretty much can't hurt it.

7. Upgrade to moped hydraulic brakes and rotors. The factory mechanical brakes were adequate for the original ride, but the brake pads are too small for any kind of serious braking. I know, I nearly hit a car once that pulled out in front of me and the mechanical brakes just couldn't shed speed fast enough. Get 2 piston moped brakes and count yourself fortunate I told you to. BTW...there are single piston hydraulic brakes in the same size as the mechanical ones. They cost just as much as the two piston variety and don't last worth crap. The brake pads are just too small and wear out super fast. I have the two piston calipers on my scooter and they are very reliable and can apply maximum braking power to the wheels. Brakes are definitely a place where more is better. Brake lines are commonly found with 10mm banjos, but the brake handles/cylinders you want have 8mm bolts. The ones with 10mm bolts are really huge and intended for small motor cycles. I used a piece of copper pipe to create a spacer around the 8mm bolts. This keeps the bolt centered in the 10mm banjo. A few small holes in the copper pipe allows for good fluid flow. I should probably say do this first for the safety benefits alone.

8. Upgrade to better chain and sprockets. T8f is good for 2500 watts reliably. More than that and it will break randomly. 219 is the way to go...10,000 watts and it's only slightly heavier than t8f. 219 or KART sprockets are uber cheap and available in any size you could want. T8f has limited selection and everything has to be purchased from China.

9. Upgrade to better wheels. This is the only thing I actually did in this order. The factory cast wheels are crap. My new wheels still run on the same 12mm axle. I had to be a bit creative with axle spacers to get the wheel position centered. The hub on these wheels shifts the tire too far left and the sprocket too far to the right. I mounted the rim on the wrong side of the hub and then used axle spacers to get the sprocket off the frame. No harm done and it all works reliably. However, once done, these wheels are so much better than the crappy factory ones. No more wheel wobble and they balance really well too.

10. Get better chain tensioners for the rear drop-outs. The factory tensioners just don't stay tight or hold their position even with locktite.

11. Run your chain a little too long so you never have to mess with the drop-out tensioner positions. Set them and forget them. Then get a spring loaded chain tensioner for soaking up the slack.

Well that's about it a guess.
 
Wow, tons of great info. I have read your whole thread and this is an excellent summary of my notes on your various adventures. I appreciate not having to “re-invent the wheel” on all this stuff.

I will start a new thread once I get going. I have learned a lot from you and I expect that there are riders out there that could benefit from what works and what doesn’t with my project.

I guess I better tell you my plans and get your opinion (nothing is purchased yet).
1. I agree that the hydraulic brakes are the way to go (thanks for all the great info on those), I also really like the aftermarket wheels. Once I have the new E-system parts, I plan on keeping all high tension wires as short as possible and using the silicon 8awg/6awg and high current connectors that you specified. As big as feasible seems to be the way to go for high current/low loss.
2. I don’t do any riding at night or in the rain. I still plan to “moisture proof” the components as much as possible.
3. Performance goals: I would like to get a 20 mile range averaging 25 mph with a top speed of 35-40 mph. It’s hilly where I live so torque is appreciated.
4. I have looked at the sites you provided for 219 parts. I plan to order that stuff when I’ve finalized on the other upgrades. I may still want to experiment with ratios so I can fine-tune to my needs. I have ideas for a chain slack tensioner that I want to try. I’ll also get the aftermarket drop-out tensioners that you have.
5. Battery upgrade: I have found a 50V/40A, 23.6Ah, 14S8P, Samsung 30Q NCA (LiNiCoAl) pack that will fit in the battery box and still provide room for some emergency parts and tools (carefully wrapped of course). I don’t want to have anything external just yet. This battery does not come with a fuse. I agree that fuses don’t really work in our environment.
6. Controller upgrade: I like the Kelly KEB48301X. I also like the Infineon 12F3077 (I think you were referring to a “Grinfineon” and I’m not sure if they are the same). I like features of both and I’m interested in your thoughts. I plan to use the CycleAnalyst V3.
7. Motor upgrade: I like the Golden Motor 48V HPM3000B with air cooling. I’m expecting quality hall sensors and windings. I think 3000W should get it done, and the complete 48V system should be pretty efficient. I did consider 60V/2000W all the way around but space was becoming an issue in the battery box. I also didn’t have as many choices on 60V systems.

Based on all of this, do you think I’ll achieve my performance goals?
Thanks again for your help.
 
With the battery u say 50v/40amp
That would make just over 2000watt rated discharge it will need a little help when drove hard or it might get hot.
The motor and controllers listed are more than up to the job of 40+ mph, The motor listed has 3kw nominal and 6kw peaks so it needs a 20s8p for the 72v version or 13s12p for the 48v version of the motor with the battery's mentioned for both motor and battery's to operate in its nominal states it will then cope with the bursts of 6kw, It sounds a nice build you have planned, Either way 72v or 48v it will need 156-160cells but 72v will need smaller cabling and be more efficient shifting less amps about, I look forward too seeing a journal
 
E-ScooterDude said:
Wow, tons of great info. I have read your whole thread and this is an excellent summary of my notes on your various adventures. I appreciate not having to “re-invent the wheel” on all this stuff.

I will start a new thread once I get going. I have learned a lot from you and I expect that there are riders out there that could benefit from what works and what doesn’t with my project.

I guess I better tell you my plans and get your opinion (nothing is purchased yet).
1. I agree that the hydraulic brakes are the way to go (thanks for all the great info on those), I also really like the aftermarket wheels. Once I have the new E-system parts, I plan on keeping all high tension wires as short as possible and using the silicon 8awg/6awg and high current connectors that you specified. As big as feasible seems to be the way to go for high current/low loss.
2. I don’t do any riding at night or in the rain. I still plan to “moisture proof” the components as much as possible.
3. Performance goals: I would like to get a 20 mile range averaging 25 mph with a top speed of 35-40 mph. It’s hilly where I live so torque is appreciated.
4. I have looked at the sites you provided for 219 parts. I plan to order that stuff when I’ve finalized on the other upgrades. I may still want to experiment with ratios so I can fine-tune to my needs. I have ideas for a chain slack tensioner that I want to try. I’ll also get the aftermarket drop-out tensioners that you have.
5. Battery upgrade: I have found a 50V/40A, 23.6Ah, 14S8P, Samsung 30Q NCA (LiNiCoAl) pack that will fit in the battery box and still provide room for some emergency parts and tools (carefully wrapped of course). I don’t want to have anything external just yet. This battery does not come with a fuse. I agree that fuses don’t really work in our environment.
6. Controller upgrade: I like the Kelly KEB48301X. I also like the Infineon 12F3077 (I think you were referring to a “Grinfineon” and I’m not sure if they are the same). I like features of both and I’m interested in your thoughts. I plan to use the CycleAnalyst V3.
7. Motor upgrade: I like the Golden Motor 48V HPM3000B with air cooling. I’m expecting quality hall sensors and windings. I think 3000W should get it done, and the complete 48V system should be pretty efficient. I did consider 60V/2000W all the way around but space was becoming an issue in the battery box. I also didn’t have as many choices on 60V systems.

Based on all of this, do you think I’ll achieve my performance goals?
Thanks again for your help.

Riding at night definitely requires lights, but I still use my directionals during the day. Of course the rest of the lights only get used at night. Make yourself a new deck out of plywood and cover the top of it in grip tape. I don't know what your deck is like, but mine was rather narrow and made of plastic that was pretty slick when wet. All I had to do was step in a puddle and my shoes would slide around on the deck. That was the first thing I replaced. Also, my factory deck did not seal up at all. There was a large gap between the lid and the battery box that let in water and dirt. The new deck does not. The folding mechanism may be better on your scooter, but it looks like like so I can't say that it has been improved or not. It has two problems. The hole in the top of the battery bay has sharp edges that will cut the insulation on your wires and creat a short. That happened to me. Also, it doesn't seal up at all and any bit of water or dirt kicked up by the front tire goes right into the battery bay via the bottom of the down tube where it touches the battery box. I used some camper Shell foam tape right there so that the down tube presses into the foam and that keeps about 90% of the water and dirt out. I've ridden in driving rain before and when I got home I opened up the battery bay and it was dry inside. Before that...any puddle could cause a short. I ride at night all the time so lights are "must have" thing for me. The tail light is kind of smallish and doesn't put out a lot of light. I replaced the LEDs with super bright ones and then doubled how many were in it. I don't use that light anymore. I got some strip LEDs that are sectioned into 4 parts, left, right, tail and brakes. There's 3 of those across the back of my scooter now.

Does your motor controller mount to the back side of a metal plate inside the front of the battery bay? If it does, remove that metal plate and mount the controller to the front sloped area or some where else. Mine was trapped in the front section of the battery bay behind a metal plate. There was no air flow in there and the motor controller got quite hot.

I've never used that particular Kelly controller so I can't say much about it specifically. what I can say in general though is their sinusoidal controllers are very picky about the motors they will work with. I have a KLS7230S that I have yet to find a motor it will work with. I suggest you avoid their sinusoidal controllers! However, there trapazoidal controllers work great with just about anything that has halls. I may have mentioned this already, but the only time you will notice you are running sinusoidal is on a hub motor with their very low KVs and RPMs. There is a distinctive sound differnce in the motor running sinusoidal vs trapazoidal. In any inrunner or outrunner, you won't hear the difference and frankly your chain and tires will make more noise than the motor will anyway.

If you are running the factory BOMA, it has a lable on it that says something like 48 volts/ 5600 rpm. It would have been nice if they just listed the Kv instead, but you can do the math and get 117kv easily enough. Ignore the motor ratings, these motors will run at much higher voltages and an additional 20-30% more wattage. I've run all my BOMA motors at 82 volts. Since I'm talking about the BOMA motors, take it apart and remove those stupid screens in the vent holes and then drill out the holes to at least 1/2". The screens get clogged up and don't allow the motor to breath very well anyway and these motors get fairly warm so let it have some air.

If you are going to stick with the BOMA for a while, consider getting a 10mm to 3/4 " adapter for 219 sprockets and just dump the t8f as soon as possible. I had Lightningrods make me one for my BOMA motors so they could run 219 sprockets. Be sure to tell him you don't need an inner keyway. It will cost you probably $25. Slide the adapter onto the shaft and then figure out where the flats on the motor shaft line up on the adapter and then drill and tap two holes for set screws that will mate to those flats. The other option is to drill all the way through the adapter and motor shaft and then tap it out all the way through for a single long set screw. I did that on a 3220 and it worked quite well.

I use this universal tensioner and drop out tensioners. THe drop out tensioners only need to be 12mm, but good luck find anything in that size. Everything is 10 or 14mm. 10mm is too small and light weight.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Aluminum-Chain-Tensioner-Bolt-On-Roller-Motorcycle-Chopper-ATV-Bike-/371713494845?var=&hash=item568bd9cf3d:m:myIlpY0A31C4Iy-_PLLdQNw&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REDLINE-BMX-Chain-Tensioners-for-14mm-axle-BLACK-/252052680617?hash=item3aaf82afa9:g:mtcAAOxy6-tR8ptw

Consider building your own battery pack. I can point you to a reliable and inexpensive source for LION cells and there's a 50 amp 20S BMS on ebay that I really like. I have 3 of them actively in use. Making your won battery pack that fits the space you have is fun and you maximize the room you have. You can buy a cheap spot welder for around $60 and use it for years. I've never bought a battery pack in my life. I always build my own.

If you go the Grinfineon route which I recommend over the straight up Infineon product. Grintech sells two versions. One costs $140 and the other $180. They both run at exactly the same voltages and amps. They even look identical. The differences are that the $180 version runs sinusoidal in sensored mode and has a 28000 eRPM sensorless limit where the $140 unit is trapezoidal only and has 13000 eRPM sensorless limit. Basically the cheaper unit is useless for any inrunner or outrunner if you are using the controller with no halls. Otherwise, it is a decent and very basic controller. I prefer programming options for controlling battery and phase current amongst other things and this controller has no programmable options at all. Again, I don't care about sinusoidal since that only matters in hubs. BTW...Grinfineons and Infineons are essentially the same controller with some better tweaks in the Grinfineon. Both are uber basic controllers with no programmable functionality. I would call them beginner controllers since they are so simple to use and set up. Just about any Kelly is going to be a much better controller than these are, but you will also pay more for it too.

I've never tried a golden motor, but looked at them quite a lot. I have no opinion to offer about how good or bad they are. However, the big block that LightningRods sells for his bike kits are legit and quite powerful. I have one in my scooter and I have a personal top speed of 58.9 mph with the big block. I can do 50mph with this motor all day long. I pull up to an intersection and wait for the light to turn green just so I can leave the cars in my dust. It's rare that a car gets across an intersection faster than me. Most cars can't accelerate faster than me. It has decently low Kv (62) so crazy tall gearing isn't necessary and it will yank the handlebars out of your hands if you are not holding on when you hit the throttle. He rates them at 3000 watts, but I can tell you from personal experience it's good for lots more than that. I like it so much that I am buying a second one despite my already growing collection of motors waiting to be used in something. It fits onto that motor bracket welded onto the frame quite nicely too. This motor I can personally recommend as solid, reliable and powerful. The second one I am buying will have the end plates opened up. I intend to run it at close to 5000 watts and 100 volts.

I agree with Ian, your battery pack will be a little light for the size of motor you are wanting to use. I doubt you will get the range you want. On the factory motor 25 miles on that pack is reasonable. Now you know why I have that box over my back wheel. I wanted range and 82 volts and crazy amps. The battery bay just wasn't big enough for all of that. As a result, I have two 20S LIPO packs in the battery bay and 240 LION cells over the back wheel and that gets me about 40 miles and because of my two 50 amp BMS's a max of 100 amps. I have to tell you, that 48 volts is a much less expensive battery pack than an 82 volt pack of the same amp/hours. I also should tell you that 48 volts IMHO is a starting point, but by no means my ending point. So go ahead for now and build a 48 volt pack, but I bet in a years time if you ride this scooter all the time like I do, that you will be upgrading to 20S. I don't remember exactly how long it was, but I built 4 12S LIPO packs that fit in my battery bay within a month of getting my scooter. Within 4 or 5 months I was already planning on upgrading to 82 volts and getting the Kelly I use today. When I get the 40 pound Currie scooter going, I'll be moving on to a moped that's sitting in my garage. I'm going straight to 82 volts right out of the box and getting a 140 volt controller. No fiddling around with boring old 48 volts. LOL! I intend to do an incremental upgrade as batteries are so expensive and bump to at least 24S and then later to 32S which is a realistic top end for a 140 volt controller. I'll also want 40 miles of range and be faster than the cars with a top speed of 60mph on level ground without sacrificing torque. I'll get all of them too after a while. Trust me on this build a bigger battery pack.

48 volts on the 1500 watt BOMA will get you 32 mph on level ground, but pulling even a small hill, it will slow down. The 2000 watt BOMA will hold most reasonably decent paved hills and get you a top speed of about 40 mph on 48 volts. The big block at 48 volts...well I've never run it there so I don't know, but at 82 volts 50 mph is no problem and you will still have great acceleration.

On a side note...if you are serious at all about your EV, then you will want to be able to upgrade it. Just get a motor controller that is overkill. Even if you think you will ride this thing at 48 volts forever and never exceed 3000 watts, next year you will be wondering what it could do with a bigger motor and 82 volts. Just get the controller you really want now so you don't have to buy it later and shelve the smaller controller. That's what I did and I don't regret it one tiny bit. My Kelly controller can deliver 10000 watts and I'm using 40% of that right now. What happens later on when I decide I want to use a much larger motor or want to build a 10,000 watt moped? I already have the controller I need for all that power. I bought the Grinfineon controller for a 40 pound kick scooter that I intend to run at 48 volts for now. It's a 120 phase amp controller and good for 88 volts. I know full well that after buzzing around on the thing for a year, that I will get bored and want to upgrade something. I haven't ridden it more than 2 or 3 miles so far and I already know it will eventually get a much more powerful outrunner on it..namely an 80-100 from lunacycles. It's a tiny motor and good for about 4000 watts. I've already expanded the battery bay. The original bay could barely hold 3 10,000mah turnigy packs and a motor controller, now it will hold 9 of those packs and lots more besides the controller. I'm just saying...think of the long game and don't limit yourself by under buying on the motor controller.
 
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