Brushless dual 6kw ALIEN Power system - electric longboard

[yelnatsch517]

I just wanted to add my board to the list.

It uses an SK3 6354 260 KV motor, 6S 6000mah Lipo and 150 A Hobby wing ESC. I just did a 16 km ride and arrived home with an average cell voltage of 3.75v. I was cruising relatively slowly, maybe 20 kmph, but carving the entire time. So I would estimate I could get 20 km if I drive efficiently and not go too low to hurt the battery.

With the 76 mm wheels it has a calculated max speed of about 45kmph, I have taken it up to 38. I would estimate it will do 40-42 under ideal conditions. I am a wimpy skater and prefer to cruise at 25 or so. Final weight is 6kg.

It is much even better than I expected it would be. The entire time, I have to fight the ridiculous EV grin.

There is very little I would do differently. Perhaps the new 12 tooth pinion gear to limit top speed some more. I wouldn't buy the hard case 2s batteries next time. The wires are bulky with the required 90 degree input angles. 5s would also help limit top speed and make my cruise throttle setting easier. A slightly lower KV motor would be another way. For me a top speed of 35 would be ideal. I have found from my electric bikes it is much more relaxing to cruise at full throttle. I am quite sure I could get away with 3/8 spacers instead of 1/2.

I would like to thank Richard for putting together such a nice kit. Everybody should own one of these!

That's awesome, that sounds like what I want to do. I wanted a portable <15lb board capable of more than 15miles.
What gear ratio are you using? Are you using the Alien pulley and mount kit or did you make them yourself?
Also, what remote are you using?

Great Venus - that's looking good .. Yes the lower gearing is needed for the 270 kv as you say .
That's why I'm producing the new 2 peice hub , so I can make larger pulleys wheels available without the cost going up too much . As a 1 peice means machining from larger blank thus meaning more machining and higher cost for the blank in the first place .
I hope in the future to offer a range of gearing solutions for different speeds/ hill climbing/ wheel/ motor size etc etc

Keeping the larger pulley the same while changing the number of teeth on the smaller pulley seems like the best option, after playing around with my excel sheet.
Lower KV motors definitely need a lower gear ratio for two reason. 1.) To achieve higher speeds and 2.) More teeth in mesh for the timing belt.
The second is extremely vital as lower KV motors usually mean higher torque. With higher torque, more teeth are needed in the mesh to prevent belt slippage.

Also, I've been trying to think of a way to adjust belt tension and I believe using some mechanism involving a socket cap screw would be best.
I've heard that timing belts tend to stretch a bit after initial usage so it's vital people can tighten the belts after a few miles of use. What do you think?

 

[rf]

It will cog from standstill, so I don't do it. I always push off. If I hit the throttle hard while slow it groans a bit. Even if it started perfectly from standstill, I would avoid doing that. That is the least efficient phase for the motor, and the most efficient for pushing.

Others have reported better - perhaps a higher timing might give an improvement - perhaps it was too good to be true or perhaps it's our cheap Turnigy motors.

Wish we could adjust ESC timing on the fly. That might clean things up.

 

[rf]

I just wanted to add my board to the list.

It uses an SK3 6354 260 KV motor, 6S 6000mah Lipo and 150 A Hobby wing ESC. I just did a 16 km ride and arrived home with an average cell voltage of 3.75v. I was cruising relatively slowly, maybe 20 kmph, but carving the entire time. So I would estimate I could get 20 km if I drive efficiently and not go too low to hurt the battery.

With the 76 mm wheels it has a calculated max speed of about 45kmph, I have taken it up to 38. I would estimate it will do 40-42 under ideal conditions. I am a wimpy skater and prefer to cruise at 25 or so. Final weight is 6kg.

...

I'm in love. The weight is wonderful. I want one! 25kph sounds great to me. Way better than walking. More speed is good for hills and stuff, but 25kph (15mph) seems like the sweet-spot.

Thanks for the great report!

 

[simonjook]

Keeping the larger pulley the same while changing the number of teeth on the smaller pulley seems like the best option, after playing around with my excel sheet.
Lower KV motors definitely need a lower gear ratio for two reason. 1.) To achieve higher speeds and 2.) More teeth in mesh for the timing belt.
The second is extremely vital as lower KV motors usually mean higher torque. With higher torque, more teeth are needed in the mesh to prevent belt slippage.

I would not go below 15T for the motor pulley - any less and you will have issues with belt slip - not enough teeth engaged especially with such a big pulley (wheel) mounted so close. I think Beetbocks is going the right way with options on the wheel pulley but as you've noted you don't get as much variation on the ratio that way.

Wish we could adjust ESC timing on the fly. That might clean things up.

Be warned playing with the timing generally may result in some surprising behaviour from your board so be wary when test riding a new setup. A one step change in timing resulted in me being chucked to the pavement at 20km/h when the motor spontaneously stalled.

 

[sk8norcal]

looks good, similar to what i had in mind,
can u 'fine adjust" the angle of the bracket?
doesn't look like it from the pic.

and do the four bolts in the above pic thread into the mount or is there locknuts on the other side?

 

[simonjook]

can u 'fine adjust" the angle of the bracket?

In the version I designed - yes but not this version as I did not slot the hanger clamp. It was done on a CNC that isn't really up to it (in my garage) rather than one at the workshop so I simplified the design so I could get up and riding to test the reliability of the hanger clamp itself which has been excellent. I will be working on the code for the proper version at the end of next week. Once done we should be able to reproduce them on demand. I'll show pictures once this is done.

 

[beetbocks]

well i went out on the new dual 50mm 2kw with the newly ESC from Bruno- wow!! hes done an awesome job on the firmware.. There's virtually no cogging and the acceleration is super smooth you can really feel the 15% more torque from start up ,the braking is a lot better also it comes on softly at high speed but increases as you slow down..just perfect..
The 36T x 12T is just right with the 8S battery and 76mm wheel combo it accelerates up hills with loads of torque and just about reaches almost full trigger at an estimated 30-mph..There's no belt slippage either as some members were concerned at..
I only did a 1/2 hr run last night and i will do a longer one this weekend- so i can get a good estimate on range and top speed but i would say this is the perfect set up for me- the weight overall is 7kg and it carves beautifully - really responsive ,I even got a bit of drift (by accident ) whilst under braking - it felt pretty good..Ive Got the EV grin back and it feels good!!
I have just to make a battery box but as you can see from the mock version it's going to be a lot smaller than the Hyper EV 6Kw board..
The new hubs will be manufactured this week ready for shipping next week. I have also after several request from forum members to design a new truck bracket for the caliber trucks (which will fit my motor bracket),as many of my customers prefer these to the holey ( see i do listen ) as the truck is 180mm wide also it should be able to accommodate the larger Flywheels- 90,97,107mm with maybe a hub extension required for the 107mm- i will also be getting some larger tooth pulley wheels made up for the bigger wheels- so lots of development in the pipe line.. plus we've got the new nunchuck to test and other goodies Brunos got planned- looks like its going to be an Exciting summer!!

mock up battery box- slimline!!

Prototype caliber truck mount
Alloy

in nice white powder coat

Video- please forgive the poor quality and jerky action- it was the very first test run and i was more bothered at checking everything ran ok...
[youtube]HR9FYTNNdn4[/youtube]

 

[simonjook]

I have also after several request from forum members to design a new truck bracket for the caliber trucks

Hmm, thought I shouldn't mention them until making them ... oh well. I have a universal truck mount coming soon - just trying to find the roundest hanger to test them on as thats the hardest challenge.

 

[beetbocks]

Simon.
I had few members pm me ,asking if this would fit my motor bracket-so i had to accommodate my customers so this bracket will fit all the Drive kits people have already bought .

 

[yelnatsch517]

Sweet!! It's not so much that we prefer Caliber trucks to Holey in the states, it's that Holey trucks are impossible to find.
I can get a set of Caliber trucks for $50 USD just about anywhere.

Are you using the nunchuk remote in the vid?

I'm also very interested in the universal mount from Simon. Gives me an option to switch trucks around.

What deck is that in the video? I'm looking for a very lightweight deck. I've done so much searching online about longboards in the past few days and looked at everything from Landyachtz, Rayne, Never Summer, Bustin, Earthwing, etc.
One interesting starter company I found makes carbon fiber decks for $199, Hi5ber. I wonder how that would work as an EBoard deck with mounting the hardware.

 

[beetbocks]

Yes that was also so mentioned by a member as well. But I do sell the holey trucks with a great postage rate.
The deck is a Holey slot racer ( I sell them also) -I really like the way it handles.. Pity about the slots for the trucks but I'm actually going to use them to house my LEDs so it's worked out good..
No I'm using an rc handset.. Nunchuck should in a couple of weeks when Bruno gets back off hols.
I've been talking to a couple of companies/people about carbon decks but there pretty expensive compared to wood..

 

[beetbocks]

I've had a play with the motor timing tonight and its improved the ride even more. No cogging even up hill from a standstill...and the braking is wicked.. At low speed it stops you dead.. Nice one Bruno..

 

[sk8norcal]

beetbocks, good looking caliber mount,

i like the idea of one solid piece motor plate though.
with your current design, you cant adjust belt tension unless you take off belt and wheel.
you can with a single piece motor plate and slotted motor mount holes.

btw, caliber hangers are 183mm

also, for anyone thinking about making their own mount for the caliber truck,
the hanger does not have consistent cross section toward the ends.
it tapers starting about 2 cm from the ends.
(this is actually good! makes a sliding on a tight fitting mount easier)

 

[simonjook]

I've had a play with the motor timing tonight and its improved the ride even more. No cogging even up hill from a standstill...and the braking is wicked.. At low speed it stops you dead.. Nice one Bruno..

That's what I need - that's a dual motor setup, right? I really only want a single motor so it's lighter to carry and so I can kick up the nose but no cogging would be a nice upgrade.

 

[simonjook]

i like the idea of one solid piece motor plate though. with your current design, you cant adjust belt tension unless you take off belt and wheel. you can with a single piece motor plate and slotted motor mount holes.

Yeah, I went with the slotted motor mount holes - it makes belt tensioning a 30 second job and seems to hold fine even with inadequate undersized screws.

also, for anyone thinking about making their own mount for the caliber truck, the hanger does not have consistent cross section toward the ends. it tapers starting about 2 cm from the ends. (this is actually good! makes a sliding on a tight fitting mount easier)

Actually it makes it tricky as the apparent ideal location gives an uneven cross-section beneath the bracket and it will tend to "walk" out towards the pulley over time. I went through a few designs I 3D printed before I had a location that would stay under load.

 

[yelnatsch517]

i like the idea of one solid piece motor plate though. with your current design, you cant adjust belt tension unless you take off belt and wheel. you can with a single piece motor plate and slotted motor mount holes.

Yeah, I went with the slotted motor mount holes - it makes belt tensioning a 30 second job and seems to hold fine even with inadequate undersized screws.

also, for anyone thinking about making their own mount for the caliber truck, the hanger does not have consistent cross section toward the ends. it tapers starting about 2 cm from the ends. (this is actually good! makes a sliding on a tight fitting mount easier)

Actually it makes it tricky as the apparent ideal location gives an uneven cross-section beneath the bracket and it will tend to "walk" out towards the pulley over time. I went through a few designs I 3D printed before I had a location that would stay under load.

I'm actually thinking for most trucks, it would be best to use dual motor setups, both on the back trucks, like boosted boards. This allows for the mounts on either side to be bolted together for an absolute secure fit.
This is actually the design we used in our project. We used 5mm polycarbonate and even that was strong enough as a mount material. I would suspect using 6061 aluminum, the mounts would be rock solid at 4mm.

 

[simonjook]

I'm actually thinking for most trucks, it would be best to use dual motor setups, both on the back trucks, like boosted boards. This allows for the mounts on either side to be bolted together for an absolute secure fit. This is actually the design we used in our project. We used 5mm polycarbonate and even that was strong enough as a mount material. I would suspect using 6061 aluminum, the mounts would be rock solid at 4mm.

There are advantages and disadvantages. You are limited in motor choices (to smaller motors) or putting one inboard and the other outboard and adding expense. You can see in the pick earlier of my Caliber setup that there's no room for another big motor in the same plane.

Personally, having ridden 100km on a single motor design in a hilly area I don't think I really need two motors - I stall (predictably) on the occasional really steep grade near the top but I think if I went to a better controller and 8 or 10S (currently 6S) I'd make it up those hills. Even then there are hills here that no board would climb (motorcycles below 250CC struggle).

 

[board3d]

Wow. That came out perfect Richard. Great job. I like the new battery housing design, I know it is temporary, bit what are you using exactly?

 

[rf]

I'm actually thinking for most trucks, it would be best to use dual motor setups, both on the back trucks, like boosted boards. This allows for the mounts on either side to be bolted together for an absolute secure fit.
This is actually the design we used in our project. We used 5mm polycarbonate and even that was strong enough as a mount material. I would suspect using 6061 aluminum, the mounts would be rock solid at 4mm.

I keeping thinking about the Boosted configuration too. And even wondering if driving both wheels with one motor might be advantageous.

There is something to be said for a little more complex mount. Perhaps attaching to the trucks in two places. Maybe even wrapping around the motor to afford it some protection. It could likely be a lot thinner stock than the single, monolithic mount.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[simonjook]

I keeping thinking about the Boosted configuration too. And even wondering if driving both wheels with one motor might be advantageous.

You need a one way clutch or differential on one wheel otherwise it won't like to turn.

 

[yelnatsch517]

I'm actually thinking for most trucks, it would be best to use dual motor setups, both on the back trucks, like boosted boards. This allows for the mounts on either side to be bolted together for an absolute secure fit. This is actually the design we used in our project. We used 5mm polycarbonate and even that was strong enough as a mount material. I would suspect using 6061 aluminum, the mounts would be rock solid at 4mm.

There are advantages and disadvantages. You are limited in motor choices (to smaller motors) or putting one inboard and the other outboard and adding expense. You can see in the pick earlier of my Caliber setup that there's no room for another big motor in the same plane.

Personally, having ridden 100km on a single motor design in a hilly area I don't think I really need two motors - I stall (predictably) on the occasional really steep grade near the top but I think if I went to a better controller and 8 or 10S (currently 6S) I'd make it up those hills. Even then there are hills here that no board would climb (motorcycles below 250CC struggle).

There are some pretty beefy RC motors. I think power to pound ratio is actually in our favor with everything considered.
Check out this motor: Scorpion HK-5035-500KV
Two of those would get you some pretty nice power, though it would be an expensive setup.
The compromise with motors is obviously the more powerful the motor, the more energy it uses, thus larger batteries are required to maintain the same distance.
I'm still torn between one and two motor designs myself. Two motors provide more torque at the expense of some considerable complications.

I don't have actual longboard trucks with me so I can't confirm, but according to my rough calculations a Caliber 184mm truck should be able to fit two 62mm motors (without shaft) with 60mm of room for mounts and pulleys.
5mm pitch GT2 pulleys at 9mm belt width actually measure 20.3mm with hub. This allows for 4 x 4mm mounts plus a few mm left of room.
(62*2) + (20.3*2) + (4*4) = 180.6mm < 184mm

This motor: NTM 50-60 270KV would fit nicely in there if my calculations are correct.


Which motor did you use? I'm also interested in the specs of the Alien Power motors.

 

[sk8norcal]

i dont know if those are stock paris 195
but they have the electricfly's and look at all that space...
and i believe paris will have lower degree plates soon ?

 

[rf]

I keeping thinking about the Boosted configuration too. And even wondering if driving both wheels with one motor might be advantageous.

You need a one way clutch or differential on one wheel otherwise it won't like to turn.

It will turn. Just differently. I used to drive gocarts with 'live' (hard) axles when I was a kid. They turned very well, just liked to slide a little at times, which was pretty much fun. The wheel slips in place of the clutch or differential. That might be fun or just crazy on a skateboard ...

But a differential (limited slip or whatever) would be interesting. Simpler than two motors in some ways.

 

[simonjook]

I don't have actual longboard trucks with me so I can't confirm, but according to my rough calculations a Caliber 184mm truck should be able to fit two 62mm motors (without shaft) with 60mm of room for mounts and pulleys.
This motor: NTM 50-60 270KV would fit nicely in there if my calculations are correct.

Unfortunately, I think not - it wouldn't fit on mine without being perilously close to the wheel pulley. I have an SK3 Turnigy SK3 - 6364-190kv which has a 73mm body and it hangs 20mm past the centre line. There is only 9mm between the wheel pulley and the motor body nearly half of which is occupied by the aluminium motor mount only leaving a 5mm gap. You are still a few mm short of it fitting. You can just flip over one mount though and mount it outboard.

 

[simonjook]

It will turn. Just differently. I used to drive gocarts with 'live' (hard) axles when I was a kid. They turned very well, just liked to slide a little at times, which was pretty much fun. The wheel slips in place of the clutch or differential. That might be fun or just crazy on a skateboard ...

Go Kart turn because they slide, that slide helps them turn tighter. Having a tail slide everytime you turn though something you could get used to is not desirable and will simply eat wheels at speed and tend to run straight going slow. It won't ride like a skateboard anymore and you might as well motorise a scooter.