Brushless dual 6kw ALIEN Power system - electric longboard

[simonjook]

Sounds good on the starts but with your issues maybe firstly, push your timing a little higher. You might find you can climb a little cooler (what motor are you running btw?). I found the stock timing with my 150A (HK not HW) was a little mild for the big low kv cans we run on skateboards.

I'm a bit surprised to hear about your braking problems. It should be silky smooth (I also live in a very hilly area so my rides are as much braking as powering):
- Perhaps it's also a timing issue or
- maybe reverse is still activating (I did this by accident once when I didn't properly save my programming).
- Maybe it is a "safe mode" response to protect the ESC from having to dissipate too much under heavy load (so switching braking on/off quickly)?
- It even might be belt slip - the load is much higher on heavy braking than hard acceleration - I still get a little belt skip on braking. Although you would probably notice it I have found some HTD belts can slip really quietly and that would give you the stuttering feel.

 

[rf]

Has anyone maybe looked at using those controllers like for slotcars as a trigger maybe? Similar trigger style to the RC units, but a lot smaller, cheaper and very easy to hack.

Forgot to answer this one.

Slot car controllers was one of the first things I thought of. Looked online and found there didn't seem to be many around, and they were a lot more expensive than I expected.

If you find one that's not too junky or expensive please pass it along.

Richard

 

[rf]

Sounds good on the starts but with your issues maybe firstly, push your timing a little higher. You might find you can climb a little cooler (what motor are you running btw?). I found the stock timing with my 150A (HK not HW) was a little mild for the big low kv cans we run on skateboards.

Thanks for the input. Do you recall which timing setting you decided on?

I'm a bit surprised to hear about your braking problems. It should be silky smooth (I also live in a very hilly area so my rides are as much braking as powering):
- Perhaps it's also a timing issue or
- maybe reverse is still activating (I did this by accident once when I didn't properly save my programming).
- Maybe it is a "safe mode" response to protect the ESC from having to dissipate too much under heavy load (so switching braking on/off quickly)?
- It even might be belt slip - the load is much higher on heavy braking than hard acceleration - I still get a little belt skip on braking. Although you would probably notice it I have found some HTD belts can slip really quietly and that would give you the stuttering feel.

Pretty sure reverse is off. Board coasts well. No funny extra modes apparent. Brakes work well most of the time. (Though the loud whine from the motor is disturbing.)
Doubt it's a heat/protection response. System seems to be running cool and my max current draw ever was 58 amps. ESC remains cool.
Belt was slipping some on the uphill, at first. Fixed that. Braking seems otherwise smooth.
I think it's a traction issue. Roads in the area are black-top with crushed lava-rock filler. Wheel grabs then skips. Rear wheels on many vehicles have issues with not enough weight on them. Front wheels brake much better.
Been thinking a set of those trucks with mechanical disc brakes might be good for the front. (Don't necessarily like mixing trucks though.)

Thanks,

Richard

 

[rf]

I think I may have a source (or sources) for decent trigger pots. Assuming no one has located a manufacturer of the many units the various R/C radio makers use.

Small joystick pot assemblys. They're everywhere, at just about every size and price. Just need to find one that's of reasonable quality, durability and price.

Something somewhat like this:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9032

Pull the joystick/knob off. Put a trigger in it's place. Put a couple drops of glue on the lateral axis pivots to immobilize them. Turn it upside down. And, Walla! A trigger with a spring to center and hopefully nice action.

 

[whilechukwuzout]

I think I may have a source (or sources) for decent trigger pots. Assuming no one has located a manufacturer of the many units the various R/C radio makers use.

Small joystick pot assemblys. They're everywhere, at just about every size and price. Just need to find one that's of reasonable quality, durability and price.

Something somewhat like this:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9032

Pull the joystick/knob off. Put a trigger in it's place. Put a couple drops of glue on the lateral axis pivots to immobilize them. Turn it upside down. And, Walla! A trigger with a spring to center and hopefully nice action.

or you can immobilize the x axis this way:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=52532

I did this to my wii nunchuk and it works quite nicely. More work, but the advantage is that its reversible if you want to use the x direction later down the line for any reason. (steering for your skateboard?!?! )

 

[rf]

or you can immobilize the x axis this way:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=52532

I did this to my wii nunchuk and it works quite nicely. More work, but the advantage is that its reversible if you want to use the x direction later down the line for any reason. (steering for your skateboard?!?! )

Cool.

I almost said something about the Wiichuck in my description. It doesn't come close in my 'reasonable quality' requirement. At least not the Nyko Kama unit I have.

But there are lots of other joytick pots to choose from. And with a decent pot sufficient resolution and travel are easy to come by. We can improve on the R/C handsets.

 

[torqueboards]

Whoa.

Received a new ESC in the mail Friday. Hobbywing EZRUN-150A-PRO Brushless car ESC.

Mounted the ESC today, set it up and went for a ride. Not bad. Lots of settings. The softest start mode is almost soft enough. Not quite. Brakes weren't too bad. Just noisey. Loud whine. Braking with one rear wheel is definitely not enough. During braking the wheel will sometimes stutter and jump ... not good. Braking from the rear only is pretty ineffective anyway.

I live on a steep hill. Lots of ups and downs around the neighborhood. I rode way down a long hill with the brakes applied most of the way. Worked okay. Nothing got very warm. Turned it around and headed back up the hill. Motor definitely won't start uphill without a kick. But goes well after that. Went up about 100 yards or so of steep hill where it got even steeper. Was moving along okay, I thought. Noticed I had a fair bit of throttle left. Slowly squeezed on the rest and the board acted like there was hardly a hill there. Zoom! Impressive little motor. (Forgot to bring my GPS to record speed.)

At the top of the hill the motor was pretty hot. And the Ammeter had recorded a peak of 58amps. Hmm. Before that my top readings were more like 32amps. This was with 6S Lipo battery pack. Motor needs more cooling or less speed on the uphill, I guess. Perhaps a different ESC timing advance setting.

ESC http://www.valuehobby.com/hobbywing-ezrun-150a-pro.html
Motor http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__22036__ntm_prop_drive_50_60_270kv_2400w.html
Radio http://www.valuehobby.com/flysky-gt2.html
Batteries http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9514__Turnigy_5000mAh_2S_30C_Lipo_Pack.html times 3
Meter http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10080__Turnigy_130A_Watt_Meter_and_Power_Analyzer.html

Nice. Congrats on getting a board should be a ton of fun. What kind of motor mount are you currently using and I assume you are on 6S? How steep was the hill? I'm looking to create a lower voltage setup and I'm stuck on going a 6S, 8S, 10S setup with the same NTM 50mm 270kw motors. I'm also not sure if I should do a 1 motor or 2 motor setup. Lighter seems nice but also having more power is nice too. Tough decision. I'm currently running a 10S setup with 2x 63mm motors so pretty heavy would like to try a smaller setup.

 

[rf]

Nice. Congrats on getting a board should be a ton of fun. What kind of motor mount are you currently using and I assume you are on 6S? How steep was the hill? I'm looking to create a lower voltage setup and I'm stuck on going a 6S, 8S, 10S setup with the same NTM 50mm 270kw motors. I'm also not sure if I should do a 1 motor or 2 motor setup. Lighter seems nice but also having more power is nice too. Tough decision. I'm currently running a 10S setup with 2x 63mm motors so pretty heavy would like to try a smaller setup.

Thanks! It's pretty amazing. Goes up steep hills as if they were flat. Feels like it could climb walls if there was traction.

How does an 11-pound skateboard with such a tiny motor do that!?

Yes, I'm using 6S x 5AH battery pack. I'm using 2S batteries in series to keep the ground clearance great, while allowing for testing of different configurations: 2S, 4S, 6S, etc. ... 6S seems like plenty to me! It will go uncomfortably fast. Even up hill!

I'm using the smaller Alien motor mount with the 36T pulley. Great stuff! Perfect gearing. I think anything more is crazy.

Richard

 

[torqueboards]

Hrrmm Do you plan on going dual motor. I may have to just go for 6s. It comes out to about 1800 watts compared to the 2200 wants after 90% eff. give or take for the reg 8S. Only thing that sucks if you go 8S is the fact that you have to buy an AlienPower ESC as there are no ESCs that supply for 8S/10S. I think there's is even 7S or the 10S setup that I have. I'm guessing a single or dual motor with the NTM 50mm's and 6S is adequate enough. Sounds like a plan. I think I'll be going single motor 6S on my next board.

What are you using for your battery/electronics enclosure?

 

[simonjook]

Hey rf, I used the second to highest (called "high") timing and that was good but I am about to test the "extra high" setting just to see how it behaves. The Medium setting which was default was problematic.

I cannot loose traction except over really loose stones. Even with full brake on a hard carve it's hard to break traction so I am a little surprised if you seeing slippage under brake... I think you have something else going on. I was thinking you could switch a couple of you motor wires and ride the board backward so it's front wheel drive. This will give you maximum traction on braking. If you get no problems them it must just be a surface/style thing.

On slot car controllers. They're not really designed for anything but forward motion (ie no reverse/brake though some have a switch) and really are nothing more than a pot on a spring. If you want them for the cases they are quick and easy to 3D print. Look up your local makerspace and you can probably get one done.

 

[beetbocks]

Black kits now down in price and 'grab' yourself a great deal on a grab handle !!

 

[superpef]

How are those caliber mounts coming along, Beets?

 

[old man]

BEETBOCKS wrote : With Richard we are working to give a complete kit ( electronics and mechanical ) to give to our customers an easy plug and play system. the kit will be more compatible with different kinds of board. Also the new electronics kit will be available in a box enclosure, ready to be fit on your board, with switch, without having to worry about sparks, plug, connectors. Also will be available a direct plug for charge the batteries, without disconnecting them always. The only wire you will see, will be the motor\s connectors.
Also available will be New firmware for a better sync, and 15% more torque on startup, expecially designed for mountain board. Everything to give to our customer a very good and reliable system at a friendly price. I dont think its fair that those who love this hobby need to pay 1500$ for an E board so, a friendly kit is our goal. Then the customer can choose from the different levels of power available and consequently choose how much to spend. Also the nunchuck style controller is ready. I'm just waiting to come back and do some test with Richard. It is programmable, but this functionality will not be available for safety reasons. It is factory programmed with fail safe, brake delay (ms) and throttle delay(ms).

Hi everybody , first I want to send respect to Beetbocks for his work : long life !
Second, for those who have not enough electrical knowledge, not enough time , r both ... I'd like to know where and how to buy a complete kit as Richard describes ? I mean including EVERYTHING (but the sk8 !!) , batteries , controler , .... Shall I get one for Christmas ? Oh yes please

 

[Murfix]

Keep an eye out on their websites for updates:
http://www.aliendrivesystems.com/
http://www.alienpowersystem.com/

Also there's no doubt that, when ready, the new products will be announced here on the forum.

 

[beetbocks]

How are those caliber mounts coming along, Beets?

Ive just ordered a batch of mounts and 40T/44T they should be about a week... they will machined all over and chamfered and nice and shiny..not like the prototype ones on Bruno's board..

 

[whilechukwuzout]

No more shipping to US or CA?

 

[beetbocks]

No more shipping to US or CA?

Hi No-sorry about that.its out of my hands I'm afraid.. I can ship to any other country in the world but the I have to ship to the Paypal address that is paying for it..

 

[rf]

Hrrmm Do you plan on going dual motor. I may have to just go for 6s. It comes out to about 1800 watts compared to the 2200 wants after 90% eff. give or take for the reg 8S. Only thing that sucks if you go 8S is the fact that you have to buy an AlienPower ESC as there are no ESCs that supply for 8S/10S. I think there's is even 7S or the 10S setup that I have. I'm guessing a single or dual motor with the NTM 50mm's and 6S is adequate enough. Sounds like a plan. I think I'll be going single motor 6S on my next board.

What are you using for your battery/electronics enclosure?

I had thought about dual motors. But after seeing what one can do I suspect there is really no need. When I push it really hard up a hill there's some heat buildup. But I suspect that can be fixed. Others have mounted a simple fan blade to the motor housing and gotten great results in that area. But I may be riding a lot more in flat areas anyway. I think the NTM 50 with 6S is really plenty. I might consider two motors for more traction, especially for braking. But then I'd be looking for motors smaller than the NTM 50. Perhaps more like the Boosted setup. That would probably be really cheap too.

I'm still trying to decide on the best enclosure. Things are still stapled to the board with a plastic covering. But that's nice, because it lets me try different things easily. Thinking of making a quick-release wood or preferably ABS battery box with max dimensions of about 7" x 8" x 1". That should hold the 6S, 5 amp-hour pack I have now. And as much as a 7.8 amp-hour pack if I feel the need for more capacity.

Richard

 

[torqueboards]

I def like the NTM 50mm way better than the SK3 50mm. For real steep hills downhill 2 motors is def better for braking but 1 isn't so bad either. I want to run a 2x 6S setup with Trackstar 150A or HK 150A and 2x NTM 50mm and 2x 3S. I'm actually starting to like the 6S idea versus my current 10S setup as the 2x3S (6S) batteries height is about 1" compared to 2" with my 2x5S (10S) setup. I've rode my 63mm motors with 5S as one battery was messed up for a while and it was still climbing the hills not as well but still was doing pretty well with a running start.

Talking about the best enclosure. LOL You should see my setup. I'm still riding it with a manila folder which I wrapped up in duck tape with velcro. Works great but looks like crap. I know, you can purchase aluminum project boxes on eBay. I'm going to test one out and see how well they work. I can also do ABS plastic but I need a good model to wrap it around, which I don't have yet. I don't want to put it over the battery itself.

Eventually, I want to make a 4WD setup probably going to be 6S.

 

[rf]

Hey rf, I used the second to highest (called "high") timing and that was good but I am about to test the "extra high" setting just to see how it behaves. The Medium setting which was default was problematic.

I bumped mine up one notch and didn't notice a lot of difference yet. Haven't tried the long hill yet. It did sound a slight bit less smooth. Will have to try all the settings and see what they're like. Wish I had a temperature pickup on the motor so I could watch it while I ride.

I cannot loose traction except over really loose stones. Even with full brake on a hard carve it's hard to break traction so I am a little surprised if you seeing slippage under brake... I think you have something else going on. I was thinking you could switch a couple of you motor wires and ride the board backward so it's front wheel drive. This will give you maximum traction on braking. If you get no problems them it must just be a surface/style thing.

Riding backwards is a great idea. I'll give it a try.

On slot car controllers. They're not really designed for anything but forward motion (ie no reverse/brake though some have a switch) and really are nothing more than a pot on a spring. If you want them for the cases they are quick and easy to 3D print. Look up your local makerspace and you can probably get one done.

A good smooth pot with a comfortable handle and a good return spring is mainly what I'm looking for. Preferably something compact. Plan to put a microcontroller in it, so adding a button for brakes would be easy. Hold the button in and the trigger becomes brakes. I think that might be natural enough as a user-interface. Not sure. I've always thought pushing the trigger forward for brakes was a little odd.

Still brainstorming all kinds of different possibilities for the hand controller. From something like the tiny Boosted keychain thingy, to a cell phone App.

 

[rf]

Talking about the best enclosure. LOL You should see my setup. I'm still riding it with a manila folder which I wrapped up in duck tape with velcro. Works great but looks like crap. I know, you can purchase aluminum project boxes on eBay. I'm going to test one out and see how well they work. I can also do ABS plastic but I need a good model to wrap it around, which I don't have yet. I don't want to put it over the battery itself.

Cool!

Aluminum is okay for smaller stuff. And definitely for heat sinks. Heat sinks make more sense than fans on a skateboard I think. My current EZRUN ESC has a fan. If I stick with it a heatsink will replace the fan at some point. (Though I'm not sure the fan is even necessary.)

I've been considering vacu-formed ABS like beetbocks has done, because it's fast and easy. But I really want a removable battery box, so you could keep a spare in your backpack, etc. It's a bit more work, but ABS can be welded too. With something like a large-ish soldering iron or a special heat gun.

Perhaps a combination of vacuform and welding ...

 

[beetbocks]

The abs covers will be available to buy from this weekend ...

 

[simonjook]

I bumped mine up one notch and didn't notice a lot of difference yet. Haven't tried the long hill yet. It did sound a slight bit less smooth. Will have to try all the settings and see what they're like. Wish I had a temperature pickup on the motor so I could watch it while I ride.

I tried lower settings to see if I could push the battery life out a bit ... the actually result was spontaneous loss of sync .... which meant the board when from hard accel to hard brake instantly ... I met with the ground HARD. Be really, really wary when you're testing new settings. I always put on the gloves and helmet when I am testing new timings now even if it's not going to be a hard run.

 

[beetbocks]

I've been considering vacu-formed ABS like beetbocks has done, because it's fast and easy. But I really want a removable battery box, so you could keep a spare in your backpack, etc. It's a bit more work, but ABS can be welded too. With something like a large-ish soldering iron or a special heat gun.

Perhaps a combination of vacuform and welding ...

covers are a now available for shipping- get your orders in..
http://www.aliendrivesystems.com/battery-covers-new.html

 

[rf]

I bumped mine up one notch and didn't notice a lot of difference yet. Haven't tried the long hill yet. It did sound a slight bit less smooth. Will have to try all the settings and see what they're like. Wish I had a temperature pickup on the motor so I could watch it while I ride.

I tried lower settings to see if I could push the battery life out a bit ... the actually result was spontaneous loss of sync .... which meant the board when from hard accel to hard brake instantly ... I met with the ground HARD. Be really, really wary when you're testing new settings. I always put on the gloves and helmet when I am testing new timings now even if it's not going to be a hard run.

Thanks. Sounds like good advice.

These motors are incredibly powerful. Best to be careful until things have proven themselves.

Was reading about writing new software for driving airplane ESCs. Slow startups are apparently required on planes. Without them the ESC will actually cause the motor to break propellers.