Burning up brushless ESCs

[mikegrundvig]

Is the consensus that the Phoenix Ice HV 160 is the best speed controller out there for RC builds? I've read a few people talking about burning them up under acceleration. The idea of toasting the second most expensive component in the system so easily scares me a great deal. I know there is all sort of talk about slipper clutches and the like but is that required? Say I'm using a 80-100 type motor that's geared pretty low but without a clutch and I've got a good heat sink on the speed controller, is it good enough? Should I expect it to burn up on me? Is there a better option in the end? Thanks!

-Mike

 

[Thud]

I think the castle HV160 is in a class by itself regarding sensorless controllers.

Will it be bomb proof on an e-bike?

It all depends on you Mike.
I have blown more than my share of HV160's but in their defense, I was pushing them to the edge(far beyond it actually) for racing applications that would should never happen on the street with sensible use.

I have a smaller CC Ice 100 I have treated a little rough at times, but mostly with respect & its past its 2nd birthday as an e-bike controller now.
There are a lot of the original HV110's still functioning in the world also.

As long as you know the limits & can disapline your riding..I suspect you wont have an issue. Check out AussieJesters latest video tooling around his neighborhood. Fine example of RC components working as desired.

A slipper clutch is a great garentee of limiting the amps you can load onto your build...(i perfer selectable gear ratios) Sosauty's has a fine example working on the race tracks with the smaller Astro motors.

In reality, anything can & will eventualy will break down, to date, I have smoked more xiechang controllers than Castles looking for the absolute edge.
don't know if that helps or not.
T

 

[mikegrundvig]

Actually that was very helpful. Many of the people on this forum are pushing the edge consistently and so you see a great deal of horror stories with things burning up, broken down, etc. It's a bit unnerving when I'm looking for something that is pretty reliable. Thanks!

-Mike

 

[Erogo]

Is it true that there are two distinct failure modes to be wary of with the RC-style ESCs? The one being burning up through overheating due to consistent heavy loads, such as too much hard acceleration or too much riding up a steep hill, and the other being a more instantaneous (from cold) failure where a single over-threshold current pulse can blow the FETs?

I don't hear much about that second failure mode, and it seems to me that heat sinks and slipper clutches wouldnt do much to protect you from that one. Is it an issue?

Eric

 

[AussieJester]

[youtube]wYyq6XE2hdw[/youtube]

Video below Thud mentioned in his above post, CC HV160 esc coupled with RC_Cycle Analyst + Turnigy 80-100 130Kv V2 (stock motor)

I have yet to blow a hv160 under normal riding conditions. I'm sure if I tried I could, but would take allot of abuse to do so, but then, i'm sure most speed controllers could be blown if one was to constantly abuse them, proof is on these pages of that.

KiM

 

[Danny Mayes]

I think a RC Cycle Analyst is a good investment. From what i have seen of AJ's it does a very good job of limiting current. Yeah, yeah i know it limits battery current and not phase current but until Eric's phase current limiter or something else equivalent is available it is the next best thing (electrically speaking).

As Thud mentioned above with his approach of shifting gears, Aj's 2 speed is what keeps current spikes so low on his set up. If he only rode around in top gear all day, it would be a very different story.

Gear your bike conservatively, set the limit on the Hv and RC CA conservatively and the ESC will be safe as houses.

What sort of performance are you chasing?

D

 

[mikegrundvig]

I'm shooting for a "through the bottom bracket" design with a N360 on the rear and a pair of chainrings up front with a tandem chainring on the other side. The motor will be attached to the tandem chainring so I get two gears I can choose from on the front and the N360 on the rear. The goal is for the motor to spin the pedals so I have to work while it's working and not just ride a motor cycle. As for top speed, with that much gearing, I have no idea as I can't figure out how to translate the "360%" that the N360 does into the equivalent of actual teeth. This chart doesn't really make sense to me in that regard:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/Docs/GearInchChart_N360.pdf

-Mike

 

[AussieJester]

The goal is for the motor to spin the pedals so I have to work while it's working and not just ride a motor cycle.

^^ i would suggest you seriously consider using a freewheeling crank, thats an accident waiting to happen IMHO..

KiM

 

[fizzit]

^ i agree with AJ, you're gonna die if the pedals spin and you have no freewheel with that motor :lol:

I just want to chip in and say that I have a 160 that I've used for a long time, I have about 450 miles on it. It has never had any problems, and I'm using it with an 80-85 motor. I blew one 160 at the beginning of a build when I plugged in an incorrectly wound motor. But the current one has been doing fine. Admittedly I haven't really tried any (intentional) hard acceleration. However I have done many accidental wheelies while starting due to a very sensitive throttle

 

[Hillhater]

...until Eric's phase current limiter or something else equivalent is available

any one know where that project is at ??

 

[spinningmagnets]

There can be several issues based on past overloads, but just to start, you MUST add input capacitors. They are cheap, there is no reason to add more than you estimate is minimally neccesary.

 

[AussieJester]

There can be several issues based on past overloads, but just to start, you MUST add input capacitors. They are cheap, there is no reason to add more than you estimate is minimally neccesary.

Good point MagnetMaN i neglected to add that above I run 4 extra caps
immediately before the ESC... Max spike with current setup is under 2v

KiM

 

[Miles]

As for top speed, with that much gearing, I have no idea as I can't figure out how to translate the "360%" that the N360 does into the equivalent of actual teeth. This chart doesn't really make sense to me in that regard:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/Docs/GearInchChart_N360.pdf

According to the spec. sheet, the range is 0.5 underdrive to 1.8 overdrive.

 

[bose]

When the esc's fail, is it just the output FETs that burns or does it take some other electronics with it? As the drivers etc?

Does anyone know what kind of FET drivers there are in HV160? Maybe they are rated high enough to be able to drive some to247? That would make a nice fix for burnt controllers..

 

[mikegrundvig]

By input capacitors, you guys talking about this?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523

The RC-specific Cycle Analyst is dead sexy BTW:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_rc.php

-Mike

 

[Hardcarve1]

If using the N360 why not just drive directly to it rather than the the chainrings, less reduction is required and Staton have a 27T sprocket for just the job. The only draw back would be the rear mount motor.
I also used the HV160 without problem and just never used it under halth throttle, always punched it 100% and went as hard as hell making sure I was in the right gear range.

 

[Erogo]

I'm shooting for a "through the bottom bracket" design with a N360 on the rear and a pair of chainrings up front with a tandem chainring on the other side. The motor will be attached to the tandem chainring so I get two gears I can choose from on the front and the N360 on the rear. The goal is for the motor to spin the pedals so I have to work while it's working and not just ride a motor cycle. As for top speed, with that much gearing, I have no idea as I can't figure out how to translate the "360%" that the N360 does into the equivalent of actual teeth. This chart doesn't really make sense to me in that regard:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/Docs/GearInchChart_N360.pdf

-Mike

You'd have to gear the motor down before it went into the tandem chainring, as the motor would be spinning at thousands of rpm, while you probably want your pedals to stay below 100 rpm if you're going to be pedalling with them. Any ideas about that part of the reduction, from motor to pedals? I think you need about 100:1. There are planetary reduction gearboxes of 100:1 in boat winches, but they're heavy and noisy. Other options?

Eric

 

[mikegrundvig]

If using the N360 why not just drive directly to it rather than the the chainrings, less reduction is required and Staton have a 27T sprocket for just the job.

I've seen a number of people complain that while it's good, it's still a bit too little gearing to handle all situations so I'd like a pair of gears in the front to give me as much flexibility as possible. I'm going to do a LOT of number crunching though to see where this ends up in practice before I decide anything.

You'd have to gear the motor down before it went into the tandem chainring, as the motor would be spinning at thousands of rpm, while you probably want your pedals to stay below 100 rpm if you're going to be pedalling with them. Any ideas about that part of the reduction, from motor to pedals? I think you need about 100:1. There are planetary reduction gearboxes of 100:1 in boat winches, but they're heavy and noisy. Other options?

I'm toying around with the idea of a single stage reduction worm drive if I can get the gears. With a high helix angle and multi-enveloping teeth, worm drives can get very efficient when compared to a multi-stage reduction. With a motor like this:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__5142__Turnigy_80_100_B_130Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_eq_70_55_.html
You can figure out the actual RPM with this: (130kv * 48 volts) * .8 (80% load RPM rather than 100%) and you get 4992 RPM so you need about 50 to 1 reduction. With a worm drive, you can have the motor hard attached to the worm via shaft coupler directly. Additionally, this lets the motor be mounted 90 degrees from the crankset which I REALLY like for making it stealthy. Basically the motor drives the worm, the worm drives the worm gear which is attached to a sprocket that goes to the tandem crankshaft. I would run the motor up the seat tube vertically.

Thanks!

-Mike

 

[Erogo]

Awesome. I'd tried to think of ways to run through a tandem crank, but didnt think of a worm gear. I've got another winch gearbox that someone just gave me, that I thought of mounting on a rear rack, with a chain down to the tandem-side crank. But yeah if you can get a worm drive working, that would be cool.

E

 

[Danny Mayes]

Cooool! i really want to see a worm gear in this application. I was thinking about it because it is such a neat way to get very high reduction and like you mention, the advantage of the rotated motor axis.

I stopped perusing it because i was getting efficiency figures of only around 60%. I didn't think of or know you could get high helix angle ones that efficient. Very cool.

so will you run a small chain from the worm gear to the sprocket on your crank? If so, just to offer something, try get as much reduction as you can there, then you will require less for the worm and increase its efficiency...

D

 

[Beuhji]

Hi guys !

I can just say one thing about Castle Creations ESC : your investment is never completely lost. Their after sell sevice is crazy, I have burned two times my CC 160HV ICE (about 280€), replaced two times for 0$ by CC even when I asked for a non waranty repair because I have directly solded capacitors on the circuit board ! you just have to pay for shipment to Castle.

First burning is due to current ripple with my 12S4P pack, just have to put 4 capacitors (Panasonic EEUFM1H102) to fix this problem or limit your battery pack to 10S. The second burning is due to a motor over heating failure, never continue to ride when the ESC screams BIPBIPBIP !

Edit : I use a slipper clutch since the first burning and I will add a servo speed regulator from hobbyking it is a real idiot proof usefull device between throttle and ESC !