CA v3 and Phaserunner settings-Throttle

[toasted nuts]

I have just completed the assembly of BBSHD/CAv3/phaserunner setup from grin. completed auto tune per grin on controller to get a feel for things. CA settings completed as recommended by grin for initial install. I wanted to get a feel for the display and controller before making changes.

however, the throttle and motor watts is acting odd:

1. Throttle on CA display shows ramp up from minimal to full. the motor, however, does not. it simply turns on at high rpm, then off when throttle is released. PAS settings are disabled.

2. watts displayed at full throttle shows 500w. Battery power shows 54volts. Battery is a 52v 23 amp hour battery. motor setting at 2000w.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[amberwolf]

1. Throttle on CA display shows ramp up from minimal to full.

Throttle input, or throttle output? (the diag screen one button push to the "left", IIRC, of the main screen, shows live input on the top left and output on the top right.

the motor, however, does not. it simply turns on at high rpm, then off when throttle is released. PAS settings are disabled.

This usually means that either the PR throttle input settings, or the CA throttle output settings, are set to some abrupt change from off to full, rather than a smooth change.

Set the CA's throttle mode to "Bypass" so that your throttle voltage will go directly from the actual throttle to the PR's input. If it still behaves the same way, the problem is in the PR settings. If it behaves normally, the problem is in the CA settings.

2. watts displayed at full throttle shows 500w. Battery power shows 54volts. Battery is a 52v 23 amp hour battery. motor setting at 2000w.

That just means you're not hitting the power limit so the motor isn't being limited by the CA. The 500w reading would mean it's only drawing 500w power from your battery to do the job being asked of it, and doesn't need more than that yet.

 

[E-HP]

2. watts displayed at full throttle shows 500w. Battery power shows 54volts. Battery is a 52v 23 amp hour battery. motor setting at 2000w.

Is that 500W at no load (wheel off the ground)?

 

[toasted nuts]

Thanks for responding. 500w at wheel off ground. went through ca settings again this morning. all good learning. made adjustments in PR prior to reading your message. I will have to revisit the CA settings per your suggestions tomorrow. Throttle continues to ramp from 0 to high rpm. Will attemp to send pic of ca settings and PR settings via grin supplied software. I think that would help the discussion as well.

A great challenge. Thanks again for any help.

 

[E-HP]

Thanks for responding. 500w at wheel off ground.

That seems like a pretty high no load speed, like 10 times normal.

 

[toasted nuts]

agreed. off the top of my head;

1. throttle in is set .90 to 4.25v
* I did not see the 500w setting after changing setting for PR and CA.

let see if the setting on the old laptop can be reviewed and posted via pic.

 

[toasted nuts]

attached are pics of the PR settings.

 

[toasted nuts]

oops....one wrong photo

 

[toasted nuts]

one more time

 

[toasted nuts]

My first build is complete. I am very impressed with the power of the bbshd. very fun. The bike climbs like a goat and accelerates very fast on the flat. Bike was working very good.

Like many, I was exploring increasing power via settings in phsrnr and ca software app on my laptop. I have a battery from em3ev 52 23.9ah. my issue is:

* Somehow, I managed to muggle throttle settings resulting in the throttle running at max power once the CA is turned on. the only way to stop the motor is use the ebrake, or power off the ca.
* attempted ca reset to default and phsrnr reset to default without success.
* Set ca to pass through..fail
* set ca to bypass...fail.
Throttle shows input ramp on the ca screen with voltage and percent increase and decrease, but the motor does not respond.

Any suggestions. I am revisiting both the ca official and unofficial guides in greater detail.

thanx in advance.

Sage wisdom: If it aint broke...dont fix it. I did not heed this..oh well.

 

[toasted nuts]

I currently running CAv3/phrnr.

My CA settings for throttle are set to bypass. I was having trouble with gradual ramping of throttle using pass through. The fix did allow for wider acceleration band.

I would like to use PAS in lieu of throttle only. my questions are:

*Can I have PAS functions with the CA set to bypass.
*how many polls should I configure the CA/psrnr to run on. BBSHD has a 2 magnet setup running off bbshd main axle.
*If psrnr is using hall to sensorless, and sensorless is only active, can the bbshd pas sensor still be used.

Any suggestions/comments are most welcome

thanx

 

[amberwolf]

I currently running CAv3/phrnr.

Phaserunner? If so, I'll use PR to abbreviate it, to be consistent with CA for Cycle Analyst.

My CA settings for throttle are set to bypass. I was having trouble with gradual ramping of throttle using pass through. The fix did allow for wider acceleration band.

What are your PR throttle input settings? AFAICR it also has ramping.

Personally I use 99v/second for all CA ramping settings, so that there is essentially no ramping occuring, and all throttle output changes from it are essentially instantaneous.

Bypass means the CA does not do any kind of limiting, processing, etc on the throttle signal, and it passes thru exactly as you input it from your throttle.

I would like to use PAS in lieu of throttle only. my questions are:

*Can I have PAS functions with the CA set to bypass.

I don't know; never tried it, but: probably. That's something you'd have to test with your specific firmware/hardware. If you already have your PAS connected, you can just spin the pedals even offground, and see if the CA shows a throttle voltage increase. If it does not, and you have the PAS section of CA settings correctly configured for your PAS sensor, then try CA's throttle mode in one of it's other settings. If it then works, then it won't work in Bypass for you. If it doesn't, then something is not correct in your PAS setup; either the sensor itself or it's wiring, or the CA settings for the PAS section. If the CA sees the PAS input (in the diagnostic screen it'll show the "pedals" moving, etc), then it's more likley to be settings.

*how many polls should I configure the CA/psrnr to run on. BBSHD has a 2 magnet setup running off bbshd main axle.

Do you mean "poles"? If so, are you talking about motor pole count (often called pole pairs) in the PR settings, or the speed sensor pole count in the CA, or the PAS sensor pole count in the CA?

They are different things for different functions. Which function are you configuring?

*If psrnr is using hall to sensorless, and sensorless is only active, can the bbshd pas sensor still be used.

I don't understand the question.

Settings-wise, PR settings for motor setup have nothing to do with CA settings for PAS setup.

Hardware-wise, the PAS sensor itself shouldn't be wired to go to the PR if you're using it for the CA's PAS input, and the halls shouldn't be wired to go to the CA. (you can't use them for the speed sensor so there isn't any reason to connect any of them to the CA; they are only good for motor position/speed readings in this kind of middrive).


You need to first fully configure the PR to work with your motor system the way you want it to operate via throttle. If it's not working the way you want it to with the throttle directly connected to the PR (not going thru the CA) then you need to configure the PR first.

Once that is done, *then* you can setup the CA to modify the throttle input to the PR to do things you can't do with direct throttle-only input to the PR.

It will be confusing and difficult to configure both simultaneously, and you can't configure the CA first because changes you then make to PR operation will change the way the CA makes the PR operate, which then means changing the PR settings and then CA and hten PR and so on and on. Not a fun way to tune things.

 

[amberwolf]

This seems to be the same project and problem as this thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=115619
I would recommend letting me merge them, so you don't have two sets of concurrent things to deal with. Whatever fixes one should fix the other.

I'd really recommend merging *both* threads into this one
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=115296
because it has more info in it and is about configuring the system (which doesn't appear to be complete yet, based on this thread and the linked one above).

 

[toasted nuts]

What are your PR throttle input settings? AFAICR it also has ramping.

pr throttle max start: .85
pr throttle max voltage 4.50
pr deadband 0.00
pr throttle fault range 1.10

I am not familiar with AFAICR. Please explain.

The BBSHD has a disk with what appears to have 2 magnets that spin from the main axle over the bbshd pas sensor in the motor housing. the pr wire connection to the PAS is direct. I did not run a connection from the bbshd pas to ca. Grin docs show connection as part of the pr harness to the phase connections.

By poles, I mean the two magnets that pass over the sensor as the disk spins. same principle as a pas setup off bottom bracket of a bike. Should you desire, luna has. the parts for viewing.

Hall sensor connection is currently to pr per grin docs.

Let us table the sensorless feature question for the future . I will rethink my question after more research.

For the sake of simplicity, I will forgo further tuning attempts exploring throttle and pas functions combined. I will heed your suggestion to focus on throttle via pr. I had the pr throttle config working last week. bike was very fast. I was surprised actually. The torque of the bbshd is impressive. But, I thought I would attempt setting up pas this weekend. Fail.

As of an hour ago, ca set to bypass. I will disable ca pas from its current basic setting. I will revisit throttle settings for pr. It is late now and my day starts early. I am not defeated, just humbled.

I have attached pr settings pics.

 

[toasted nuts]

Please merge the threads. I will be focusing on the throttle config going forward.

thanks again. you are the best

 

[amberwolf]

What are your PR throttle input settings? AFAICR it also has ramping.

pr throttle max start: .85
pr throttle max voltage 4.50
pr deadband 0.00
pr throttle fault range 1.10

If those are the only throttle response settings, and there are no other ramping settings, I guess it doesn't have ramping like the CA does (XX v/sec) for various functions.

So you can just use the CA's ramping fucntions if you need that. (I set all of mine to 99v/sec so there essentially isn't any)

I am not familiar with AFAICR. Please explain.

https://www.google.com/search?q=AFAICR

The BBSHD has a disk with what appears to have 2 magnets that spin from the main axle over the bbshd pas sensor in the motor housing. the pr wire connection to the PAS is direct. I did not run a connection from the bbshd pas to ca. Grin docs show connection as part of the pr harness to the phase connections.

The docs must be either showing something else or are incorrect, or there is a failure of communcation between us. You would never want to connect a PAS sensor to your motor phase wires. If it doesn't short the FETs in the controller, it will blow up the PAS sensor itself by applying battery voltage to it.

If by "main axle" you mean the shaft the cranks are bolted to, that your pedals are on, then that's probably a PAS sensor magnet set. If you want the CA to respond to PAS and send a throttle signal to the PR when you pedal, then you have to either connect that PAS sensor to the CA's PAS input, or you have to install a separate PAS sensor on the cranks and connect it to the CA's PAS input. If you don't, there is nothing connected to the CA's PAS input and thus it cannot control your system via pedals.

If the PR itself has a PAS input then you could connect the sensor to that and set up the PR to be controlled by it, but I don't know if it does or not.

If you don't want any pedal control of the system you don't need a PAS sensor connected to anything at all (PR or CA).


By poles, I mean the two magnets that pass over the sensor as the disk spins. same principle as a pas setup off bottom bracket of a bike. Should you desire, luna has. the parts for viewing.

THen for this, *if* you are connecting the PAS sensor to the CA, then you use that number of magnets as the nubmer of poles in teh CA's PAS sensor setup menu.

If you are not connecing the PAS sensor to the CA then none of the CA PAS settings are relevant and can be left at whatever setting is "disabled".

If you are connecitng the PAS sensor to the PR (if it has an input for this) then you set up it's PAS settings (if it has any) to match that PAS sensor.

For the sake of simplicity, I will forgo further tuning attempts exploring throttle and pas functions combined. I will heed your suggestion to focus on throttle via pr. I had the pr throttle config working last week.

Once the PR operates via throttle as desired, then set the CA's throttel output to match the PR's throttle input settings. If you don't want any delay in operation set all the CA ramping to 99v/sec. Then set the CA throttel mode to whichever one you prefer (passthru, speed, power, current, etc).

Verify the PR still oeprates as desired. If it doesn't, check all of the CA limiting icons in the diag screen while riding, and if any of them are capitalized, that is the setting screen you need to check and fix the limits in to match desired operation. If all remain lowercse, then no limiting is happening in the CA, and you'll need to go thru *all* the settings in the CA in all screens to make sure they are correctly set for each function as desired.

Once the PR responds to throttle as desired, then youc an setup PAS in teh CA, after you connect the PAS sensor you are going to use to the PAS input of the CA, and *only* to the PAS input of the CA (nowhere else on the system).

Just like with teh throttle and ebrake, etc, you only want your input devices to go tot eh CA, not to the PR. Normally, the PR should only get a throttel signal from the CA's throttle output, so the CA gets all the input and processes all of it per y our settings and modifies the throttle signal sent to the PR based on all of this, to make the bike do what you want.

Any input you send to the PR other than throttle means it will do things the CA isn't telling it to do, so the behavior will not be predictable based on CA settings; you would need to understand what the PR does based on both it's own behavior and those inputs plus the CA's inputs and behavior and output to the PR, and that's where things can get more complciated than necessary.

 

[toasted nuts]

thank you.

I checked with Luna. The Stock BBSHD PAS is not compatible with the ca or pr. I will be ordering a new one from grin.

I will review docs and make throttle changes as per our discussion.

I will share photos of progress settings.

Eric

 

[SplatMatic69er]

thank you.

I checked with Luna. The Stock BBSHD PAS is not compatible with the ca or pr. I will be ordering a new one from grin.

I will review docs and make throttle changes as per our discussion.

I will share photos of progress settings.

Eric

Bbshd pas is working with my phaserunner cycle analyst. Not sure why it didn't work for you

 

[Jz1276]

So, Ive been intermittently checking out the PR/CA/HD forums hoping to see some info that I could use for my programming, but I still haven't had much luck.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but it seems that everyone is still having the same issues as before. I purchased the Phaserunner v2 and the Cycle Analyst-DPS V3 right before the holidays in 2019/2020 I believe.
I had been looking forward to getting The bike set up quickly, but soon found, that I needed to do more research to understand the CA and PR settings much better before I just jumped in.

I just feel a little defeated and let down, bc I was thinking that "Once I had these components tuned properly" with the time, money and effort that I spent, to make sure that the bike that I was personally building up for my own use(2020 Canyon Neuron AL 29er) and have been acquiring some of the best components and top tier parts available, "Just waiting For the time that I would be able to put them to the test!"
I think anyone in the same position would probably feel the same way...
So what started building my expectations was that, I have a small custom electric bike business in Long Island, NY and there are not many people doing what I/we do in this area And I was already spreading myself too thin.
I had a new client make an appointment to bring his bike to be checked bc He said he was having issues with the power intermittently cutting out.
I said not a problem and bring it in so I can take a look at it...
His bike was kept in great condition and not overly done. In fact, it was pretty simple for the most part. It was a KHS hardtail that he purchased from Luna with an BBSHD, a 52v Wolfpack(fully potted) battery and the ludi controller that was pushing 2500Watts...
At this time COVID was also starting to get a little crazy and electric bikes were starting to take off and It started to get busy fast!
Anyway, When I took his bike for the initial test ride / assessment, I didn't think I could be more surprised at the straight up "power" that was coming from this "very simple setup"(IMO)! Which was really just plug-n-play bc Everything was configured at Luna and just delivered to his house. I just kept thinking that "if this was his first electric bike, What will everything else feel like to him"?
So I actually started to tell him about my project and started to pulled show him the parts that I had put aside which I was eagerly waiting to start on again once I had a little bit more time.
He seemed very interested and wanted to know once I was finished installing it, If I could let him know how much it would be If I could install that setup on his bike and I explained that If I were to add this to his system, it would only be after I had a while to test it on my own, under my own conditions... So I could answer honestly and be as thorough as possible.
I explained that the specs listed were based off of a 72 volt setup with a much higher continuous amp setting, bc that would be the only way to take advantage of the 3000+watts of power that the PR was said to be capable of putting out.

By now, I was thinking that I would be able to look up and find some exact settings that would work for most setups, as long as they were very similar in most ways.
It's been a few years since reading these forums and I'm trying to finish up My Phaserunner/CA upgrades, but I see that connecting PAS is still a big issue...and so many people seem to have just settled for it Not performing how they expected.... And for the price and time spent for your bike to only go a few more miles an hour then basically just letting you shift less does not seem like a reason for most people to have made the change.

I reached out to one of the reps and he explained everything in detail and I asked "if I were to set it up with a high quality/high power 72 volt pack"(And of course I'm leaving out the details of the pack that's needed, but I wanted to get a better understanding).
Again I said, "That should definitely give me the desired performance That would be similar to or at least better than the 52 volt setup that I had tried originally and I was told that,
"Regarding the power etc, the ludacris controller must be putting out higher phase amps than the phaserunner. Just looked it up, and it is an 18FET controller, so yes, likely much higher phase current. The off the line acceleration won't change from the phaserunner with a 72V battery as it is likley phase current limited)!
So for everybody that is saying that they're hitting speeds of 50 mph and pulling wheelies from 20 miles an hour, may I ask what you're doing differently?
Thanks, Jason

 

[lnanek]

I have a baserunner controller, which is the phaserunner's little sister. Completely happy with it and it offers higher top speed than the crappy generic controller that came with my Rattan LF-750 thanks to supporting field weakening and higher battery amps.

I do hate their PAS support. My ebike has a built in PAS I don't use because Grin needs one with a different voltage and some silly alternating magnets thing to detect forward pedaling vs. backwards. That said, I just bought a Grin compatible PAS sensor and magnet wheel, super glued them to my ebike in addition to the built-in lower voltage PAS, followed the setup instructions in the Cycle Analyst manual, and everything works great. Grin themselves have said their PAS support is so lousy because they prefer torque sensors instead of cadence, which more often use the higher voltage, so whatever. At least there's a reason.

That said, a phaserunner will never be competitive with a ludicrous controller. The specs for the ludicrous is 150a phase current, 100A battery current:

Luna BBSHD Ludicrous V2 Released!

The Ludicrous V2 is the result of many months of R&D designing a motor controller from scratch with the latest innovations in motor control, spanning over 100,000 lines of code, the best automotive qualified materials, and vastly proven building blocks; all tightly integrated into the stock...

lunacycle.com

The specs for the phaserunner are 90A max phase current, 45A continuous phase current:

V6 Phaserunner_L10 Controller

Grin Phaserunner Field Oriented Controller, New V6 Model Waterproof 8 pin CA-WP /9 pin Mains / 6 PAS plugs Molded L1019 Motor Connector 90V Max and 90 A Peak Phase Currents (~45A Continuous) Comes in Stainless Silver or Black Metal Shell Full Product Information Page

ebikes.ca

They don't mention the max battery current, but it's less than the phase current. The screenshots in this thread have first 39A then 30A set in the settings screenshots for max battery current and even their manual only has one page with 30A and one page with 40A:

https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/252/

So you are literally talking about a controller that supports half the current. Personally I think doing wheelies is juvenile and dangerous. If that's what you want to do, however, you need a lot of current which then produces a lot of torque. Upgrading voltage is more important for upgrading top speed, since every motor has a kV rating that determines the max rpm per voltage before advanced techniques like field weakening are needed. So your complaints about voltage not letting you do wheelies is kind of odd.

Grin seem like pretty mature and safety conscious cyclists as well, so I'm sure you'd have to go mess with a lot of settings to make the controller ramp up power quicker to do a wheelie as well. Just like they force people to go mess with settings to enable cruise control, since many consider it dangerous.