Carbon Fiber E-Frame built ! by Doc

[Doctorbass]

==== THE NYX BIKE FRAME PROJECT Page!!====

- INTRO and PRESENTATION of the NYX 2015: Page 1
- DYNO test for torque benchmark with the NYX torque arm on page 2 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65764&start=25


Intro:

I have been in ebike community since 2006 and 2007 on E-S when we was only 200 members and i saw alot of very nice developpment for nearly all existing components. I can say we really rock guys! 8)
There is alot of genuis, passionated and innovative persons here and i am very proud to be part of that great community! We are now over 20 000 and the E-revolution has truly begun!

Every years, month and even weeks there is new very impressive idea coming from this forum.
Even during or after their very first E bike projects people soon discovered that they need to upgrade more power, more speed, better components, it's a fact!! Multi KW on an ebike is simply Awsome feeling!!
One of the main truly ebike components that ebike was missing for many years until 3-4 last years is a damn good frame MADE to contain all the necessary kWhs battery and that is STRONG and LIGHTWEIGHT and all that with a perfect center of gravity... Fortunatly there is some great frame that became availlable over the few last years, Helping the situation. However innovation never stop and that is what i like !

I had a chance few month ago to meet two very innovative and nice guys that requested my expertise in the ebike technology for their project. I have to say I was not aware of any clue of what they was about to show me!!!

These guys was just begining in the ebike technology but they had already something that made me to fall of my chair!! I invited them to visit me and see my lab in Quebec and when they arrived, One of the two guy entered in my ebike lab and was holding in his hand that incredibly sexy looking Carbon Fiber Frame !!!

YES ! a true lightweight ebike frame all made of carbon fiber and a beautifull swing arm with the perfect customisable torque arm and all these very sexy anodized aluminum parts. All that without sacrifying strengh... even it is stronger than many frame actually!!! I have fall in love with that frame immediatly!!

I said in my mind: "YES! that's the ebike frame i've been waiting for years !!!" These guys are genious and have alot of talent!!!

I was really excited and tought that the E-S MUST discover that beautifull quality hand made frame ASAP!!!

They now have an official website where you can see all teh details you need guys. These frames are all customizable and inlcude very strong and smart design torque arms both side.

I got one prototype from them and i'm realy excited of working on it now. I will review it in the coming days and weeks. As well i will install many very pwerfull components on it and will test it for you guys! It will be a real pleasure btw


Details comming soon! :wink: :wink:

NYX website:

https://nyxbikes.com/

 

[100volts+]

When I go to the order page it says "coming soon". Well at least they are not asking for pre-order money like the copenhagen wheel people have been for the last six years.

 

[Willow]

Nice!
big like.

 

[flathill]

Can we get it without the logo?

Big opportunity here for someone to offer custom 18650 packs made to fit

The large pack would have over 800 cells

 

[Doctorbass]

Can we get it without the logo?

Big opportunity here for someone to offer custom 18650 packs made to fit

The large pack would have over 800 cells

I'm pretty sure it is posssible. Logo or not as i said they are customizable :wink:

On mine i'm actually fitting a splitted Zero battery block from a ZF11.4 made of the 25Ah NMC pouch from Farasis. It can easy produce 20kW !

That frame is so strong it really deserve a cromotor size motor .. I'm feeling cheap actually with my old school X5 lol... but the adaptto and these great X5 should get pretty interesting numbers.

I really like the really simple torque arm design on the swing arm. I'm sure it will take 200+ lb-ft with 350+ phase amp.. no prob! These are very strong design and the wheel can be disassembled in a blink of an eye!

 

[dogman dan]

That's bad to the bone.

 

[The fingers]

Too hot to handle! 8)

 

[kfong]

Close up pics of all the things that gets us excited! Infusion molding is one process I've never tried, very cool.

 

[liveforphysics]

How handy that it fits the 25Ah pouches.

I want to be riding one of these on the awesome Santa Cruz trails!

 

[Doctorbass]

How handy that it fits the 25Ah pouches.

I want to be riding one of these on the awesome Santa Cruz trails!

Luke, Due to the limitation in voltage of the Adaptto controller to 92V i only used 22s and kept the other 6s apart.

BUT !! I could fit easy 2 x 14s (28s) in that frame with the same original Zero Box configuration with the 1/4" thick aluminum plate on both side.

I wanted to keep the original design to keep the fragile pouchs 100% protected and keep them compressed to avoid them to inflate. I want to keep their RI as low as possible!

I have used ultra high strands count 6 gauge wire and SB50 connections. The adaptto can take up to 150A batt and 400A phase

In the best condition and hope

Tomorrow i will test on a scooter dyno a old school X5 with that controller.. on that frame it is a ultra high speed 2 turn 8 strands winding 5302 on a 20" wheel. The max motor power should be about 10-11kW according to the ebike.ca simulator and 79% efficiency at full power. I should get abot 211lb ft torque from a dead stop.

The adaptto also have the field weakening feature but i will be carefull to not blow these great fets as well !

Doc

 

[contador]

Any idea about thel price ?

 

[striker54]

Any idea about thel price ?

It's on their website.

 

[Obiwan007]

I can't find any indication of a price, price estimate, wild speculative price or anything else on their web site related to the possible future retail cost. Not trying to nail down any kind of price here but I am interested. If you saw a price on their web site could you just say what you saw.

 

[kentlim26]

i dont see any price too. it sure cost above one thousand in Usd with a shipping fees. i think

 

[striker54]

They have removed the image with the price. But, if my memory don't fail it's 1999 canadian dollars (special price) and after the promotion it will be 2500.

EDIT:
find it: https://nyxbikes.com/nyx2015order/

EDIT 2: the price is without shipping and taxes

EDIT 3: it appears that will have a kickstart campaing: https://nyxbikes.com/pledge-calculator/

 

[diggler]

I see this and a max e and a V2 mxus 3000 3 turn with cooling mod in the hopefully not so distant future.

 

[Hugechainring]

Hey Doc,

Thanks for posting this. What do you think about opening a separate discussion thread about the design? Frame builders like Qulbix and others have benefited from direct input by ES members, which helped them build a more durable, marketable product.

Initially, there are a few items that caught my attention.

1) There appears to be a vented cover on top of the frame. Any openings that will allow water in should be carefully located.

2) The rear shock mount on the frame side doesn't appear to have the forces distributed over a wide enough area. Dynamic loading in this zone can be easily underestimated. My gut tells me that there aren't enough bolts, they are too close together, and the carbon is going to fracture in this area even with the use of the internal stiffener plate. A 4-bolt bracket similar to what is used on the Raptor is proven, durable layout.

3) The swing arm arrangement has no cross bolts at the rear axle, and no chain tensioning device. IMHO, at the minimum, a cross bolt should be added to prevent the ears from opening up over time, which they will with the use of high power hub motors. Why a tensioning device? Because some builders will go with a Cromotor or similar with single or 2-speed (Schlumpf) gearing assuming the bottom bracket is narrow enough. With the bottom bracket on the same center as the swing arm pivot,(I really like this feature) chain tension with a single speed arrangement should be accomplished at the rear axle. If it was me, I would go with the Bomber setup, which is very similar to what they have now.

4) There should be adequate clearance for bump stops for those that want to go with a dual crown fork like the Marzo 888. Maybe there is enough room already.

We would all like them to succeed, and I feel opening up a dialog of constructive criticism before production starts may be of some service. Certainly I am open to critique of my opinions as well.

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Doc,

Thanks for posting this. What do you think about opening a separate discussion thread about the design? Frame builders like Qulbix and others have benefited from direct input by ES members, which helped them build a more durable, marketable product.

Initially, there are a few items that caught my attention.

1) There appears to be a vented cover on top of the frame. Any openings that will allow water in should be carefully located.

2) The rear shock mount on the frame side doesn't appear to have the forces distributed over a wide enough area. Dynamic loading in this zone can be easily underestimated. My gut tells me that there aren't enough bolts, they are too close together, and the carbon is going to fracture in this area even with the use of the internal stiffener plate. A 4-bolt bracket similar to what is used on the Raptor is proven, durable layout.

3) The swing arm arrangement has no cross bolts at the rear axle, and no chain tensioning device. IMHO, at the minimum, a cross bolt should be added to prevent the ears from opening up over time, which they will with the use of high power hub motors. Why a tensioning device? Because some builders will go with a Cromotor or similar with single or 2-speed (Schlumpf) gearing assuming the bottom bracket is narrow enough. With the bottom bracket on the same center as the swing arm pivot,(I really like this feature) chain tension with a single speed arrangement should be accomplished at the rear axle. If it was me, I would go with the Bomber setup, which is very similar to what they have now.

4) There should be adequate clearance for bump stops for those that want to go with a dual crown fork like the Marzo 888. Maybe there is enough room already.

We would all like them to succeed, and I feel opening up a dialog of constructive criticism before production starts may be of some service. Certainly I am open to critique of my opinions as well.

Thanks for sharing your recommandations. That's the way E-S is as well and you contribute to that and it is appreciated :wink:

My friends from NYX bike will take note of that I'm sure, as they also follow a lot the E-S and designed the CF frame after they have read hundreds of hours over the last year.

The actual frame have been tested alot on various specialized test equipment and on some test they exceeded the max limit of the test machine!

We will never stop testing and ameliorating it as well. The actual design include already a lot of great amelioration compare to the very first produced frame.

I will order a cromotor once for all ! and will test it on a adaptto Max E and 22s of Zero battery. I am pretty confident that we will reach the torque limit of the motor before anything break on the actual swing arm design. I already tested it to 350A phase current on a X5 5304 and it hold perfectly.

Most of the dropout failure occur at the very local area where the edge of the axel is than it's a chain reaction as the angle of deformation get worst until the axel spin inside it.
The NYX dropout area use the same high quality Canadian steel as I'm using for the ultimate torque arm to take all the pressure the axel edge and distribute over a larger surface of these rectangle steel parts. then the aluminum take a lower pressure.

For the bending force, the T6 aluminum is about 10mm thick on each side. Actually there is no cross bolt and it work perfect for at least a X5 5304 at 350A phase current witch close to 200 lb-ft.

Anyway we will test and re-test it to eliminate any possible doubt! :wink:


Doc

 

[cwah]

Can we get it without the logo?

Big opportunity here for someone to offer custom 18650 packs made to fit

The large pack would have over 800 cells

How did you calculate 800 cells? From the frame size it looks like the maximum would be around 400 cells:
https://nyxbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/NYX2015-SCALE11-BATTERY-SPACE-Espace-Batterie.pdf

 

[Ohbse]

Very impressive frame, great build from Doctorbass, watching with interest as this could be my next bike!

Definitely no way you can fit 800+ cells, the diagram nyxbikes briefly posted (I saw it before it disappeared ) had the scale set incorrectly. Unless this thing is built like a tardis, the realistic maximum is ~400 cells, likely less by the time you deal with padding/insulation/packaging/wiring. That's still a potential for 4+kWh internally of LG D1's or 3.5kWh of power cells, HE2 or 25R.

How did the dyno go?

 

[Doctorbass]

How did the dyno go?

Dyno reported to next week I was too short in time to make the trip and test everything the way i really want. I will keep you informed as well.

That frame can fit 4kWh+ i'm sure ... but hey!.. just think about it... that's 4kWh !! on an ebike!!!

Back in 2007-2008 i was really proud with my mongoose with 432 cells and 2.3kWh and i did 210km on a single charge!

Now we talk about an amazing light frame that remain narrow and confortable for the legs and that dont look like a motorcycle and that can fit 4kWh !!! 8) yes all together! Plus it have an amazing high tech CF look!

What can we do with 4kWh according to our experience...?.. Well.. in a conservative calculation that's a minimum of 200km at 40km/h or 150km at 50km/h...
not enough?.. are you kidding me! :lol:

I used a Zero FX battery that i have split in two parts to but in the frame and that's about 2kWh and perfect for me!
I still have some room inside for more battery but instead i will install a great fast charger( HP or other psu) that i can put inside the frame too i think that's the best solution for excellent range and quick charging!

Doc

 

[crea2k]

Looks pretty sweet, bet its light !, I hope its solid, as carbon frames offroad = snapped bike if treated rough.

 

[Doctorbass]

THE BATTERY

I have just finished the battery recently.

That was an original Zero S 2013 battery of 4 block of 28s1p 25Ah NMC that i opened and took one of the block and splitted it to get one pack of 14s and one pack of 8s. Both are mounted vertically in the frame. The 14s is on the buttom of the frame and the 8s is on the top. This way the weight is distributed really well and i still have room for a 2000W charger inside =) the remaining 6s of one of the block that i can not use due to the 92V limitation of the MAX-E:

The original Zero battery is very well designed and is like bulletproof so i kept the design as well i just splitted it.. but hey!.. that was not easy !!!! . Also there is some thermal pad between each cells and i had to carefully cut them without damadging the cell pouch. I have used a fishing line !, no blade!

All the cells are compressed between two thick 3/16" aluminum plate and all the battery case is made of strong anodized aluminum. This way the cells will transfer heat to the case very easy and cells internal resistance will stay low, allowing more power!.. In fact According the the Zero battery engineer, It can take up to 400A

For connecting the thich ultraflexible 6 gauge wire to the cell tab blade I have used copper pipe that i have flatened with the wire strands inside using a 20Tons hydraulic press so the strands melted together inside than i have added solder to the flat side and sandwiched the cell tab blade between it and another copper bar with solder on it. then i secured both together with screw. ( i have cleaned the cell tab from silicon as well!)

Here is some great pictures of them, and finishing by a look of the Zero 2013 S battery

 

[Doctorbass]

Adaptto hall error !HALLS! message PROBLEM

Tonight i got my first problem with the Adaptto Max E controller, but it was my fault. One of the temp sensor wire is in fact a coaxial for bbq and the shield wire is exposed and have low resistance with phase wires. This caused my Adaptto display to show: !HALLS! message.

All the 3 halls sensors from the motoir was showing 111 and was not making any sequence: 010 110 011 etc...

I also had onlu between 0.7 and 0.8V instead of 5V.

After some search on web i have found someone else on youyube that had the same problem. Fortunatly in his description he pointed to the electrotransport.ru website, and a great person named jeka helped by giving the solution.

http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=23722.0

The problem was a blown 2.2 ohm resistor. I guess it is used to work as a fuse to protect teh rest of the controller.

But guess what!! that smt resistor is really SMALL!!!

I had only 22 ohm from that size so i searched on some pcb i have in my lab and found a old Meanwell RSP750 board that had this great resistor

The area where it was located was really difficult to acces without dissassembling the entire controller from the box so i decided to solder little wire wrap extension and solder the resistor to teh end for future rapid acces in case it blow again I will attach that resistor with some double side tape to the case.

I have tested it and it is back working !! :wink:

Doc

 

[crea2k]

That person is me , I had great fun changing it lol, I have a hot air rework station though, so it wasnt too much of a problem.