Carbon Fiber E-Frame built ! by Doc

[Doctorbass]

Nice work Doc, cool to see some actual testing of a high performance bike! It's definitely dishing out some serious torque, I guess it's incredibly unlikely to see loads like that in use on the street as you'd loop it over well before 100lb/ft could be applied to the ground.

As well as agreeing with Allex that a comparison with Cro/Qs would be awesome I have a little bit of a wish list for other testing if ever you get the opportunity..

Effect of PWR timing on wheel torque - Dyno is the only real way to quantify an improvement as the 'butt dyno' is not going to be much help at this power to weight level. How much advance is beneficial? At what point does torque go DOWN? Does this have a negative effect on efficiency? Initial timing etc could also be 'tuned' for both power and efficiency ideal compromise using a dyno for comparative data.

OVS - my understanding is this could potentially extend your power curve to a higher RPM limit before reaching the 'knee' we see in the graph. In your case this probably would not assist in the real world as your KV is so high, meaning you would be aero limited well before this effect would be the bottleneck, however it's very applicable for people running a Cromotor with standard KV over 70 km/h.

More current! There have been examples of russian guys tuning beyond the inbuilt limitations. Never has pushing beyond the limits been so easy for you! just flash unlocked firmware and away you go. Key to keeping this alive is thermal management, a topic you no doubt know a lot about. There's good opportunity to greatly increase thermal mass and ability to reject heat from the FET's, perhaps even internal ventilation to assist with other components longevity. Additional caps, Upgrade of phase wires to 8ga etc all possible to increase power potential. 180 amps battery, 400 phase should truly stretch your motor to the limit.

I'm sure you're busy and may not have a chance to do all this, but perhaps somebody does. When I receive my Max-e back from Russia I will see if I can locate a suitable dyno locally and do some testing of my own

Actually there is no tuning on the Max-E.. all stock parameters and autodetect has been set. but i was still able to get 10.5hp at the wheel with a single old outdated 5302 witch is already awsome i think. Once i have better weather here ( spring and summer) i'll have alot more occasion to tune it perfectly and they unlock it as well, but i'm going easy first then step by step i'Mll raise the tuning to next level of performances.

I predict that the Max E will probably overheat in real world use of 22s 130A batt current on teh road because the KV of that motor is just really high and inductance is so low too... so this 5302 is in fact a controller killer ... but as you said a good thermal management like thermal mass or adding fins to take profit of the wind will help.

I will also try my liquid cooled 5403 later maybe in end of april or may. I will also receive my custom cromotor.

I would like to have one bike for the road and one for the offroad... so i am not decided yet witch bike will be offroad equiped.. the Giant or the NYX...

My giant look mad max as well and the NYX look professional grade , sexy and high tech...

I have tried OVS set to about 5 with the 5302 with empty 22s and i still get 188kmh max no load speed. but when these are fully cahrged i also get 188kmh max no load speed witch make me believe that the controler is triggering speed limit. I have tried to set higher value than 188kmh but when i do that the speed limit actually reduce.. witch is something i dont understand with teh Max E and RC9e firmware.

Usually you get your peak power at the speed that correspond to hald the max no load speed ( thumb rule i'm using) so it the max speed is really 188kmh with this setup then i should get max power peak to about 94kmh witch make me believe that with thsi actual setup^, the powerband should be pretty impressive with all that acceleration sustained up to that speed !

I already experienced more torque/ trust than 120lb-ft with my old 5305 and a 20" wheel on 24s i had... this was my setup that towed a 19200 lb schoolbus. I had about 170 pounds of trust! witch was TERRIBLE test for the epoxy bonded Ultimate Torque arms !!! but they did the job perfectly !! that was about 1700 pound of force applied on both each of the 4 axel edges at 6mm radius from the center.

Doc

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

DYNO test with the NYX bike frame kit !



Here is 2 little DYNO test to validate the torque endurance of the torque arm design. Total torque we measured this day was 120 lb-ft and 10.5hp

Please note that we forgot to correct the negative torque and power(hp) from the friction of the dyno and wheel( calibration) so the dyno was pesimistic by about 20% on teh torque and power

btw it revealed that a single fast wound X5 motor can do easy 10.5hp and still have room for abnother 3-4 hp before saturating ! we had 10.5kW and 338A phase current and 130A batt current max limited by controller setting and gotr 10.5 hp = about 0.75% eff at that power

The torque plate incuuded with this frame never moved or loosen these hold very tight and axel torque is well distributed on the swing arm end design





[youtube]4QVazIxtNwc[/youtube]

Doc

That is roughly exactly the HP and torque in the flaming hubmotor dyno video.

Yes that's it !! but with only a 32mm wide stator !! 8)

what surprized me is that to get that 10.5hp at the wheel the controlelr was drawing 10.5kW from the battery witch is a good efficiency i think for that motor size.

The winding temp was only 84 celsius at the end of all the 13 dyno test ramp we did !!!

The equivalent winding wire size if AWG 9 and that motor have a KV of 18 so it is easy to get hp without the need of insane torque...

Luke that test was done WITHOUT any OVS setting (witch mean i had no field weakening) .. just normal settings.. i was affraid to make hard test too soon with the addition of field weakening and to blow controller too soon in the season. but the field weakening would have raised the kv even more and i could have pushed more hp from teh wheel i guess.

The controller is still not unlocked.. I could get about 3-4 more kW from it with unlocked firmware... witch would mean about 4-5 more hp optimistic i guess... if the motor core dont saturate yet. This would happen at about 120-130km/h on the ebike by estimation.. what do you think?

Oh and btw the DYNO test was done with controlelr in square wave mode !!! not sinewave!! but i tried it when i was back home and motor ran fine!

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

I just confirmed to Sacko that i wil buy one of the last apr48-3g 1.8kW power supply/charger.

It will fit perfect with the 2kWh battery inside the frame.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=64821

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

I might also add a J1772 plug to the bike

This would become one of the first ebike to gavce integrated J1772 port for Level II electric car charging speed! 8)

http://modularevpower.com/


1.25 hours charging speed !!

Doc

 

[Allex]

haha that is a big connector, a bit overkill?
Don't forget the tech thread for Eaton:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66169

 

[broke]

I think the power cable for that charging plug is $$$$?

 

[Doctorbass]

I think the power cable for that charging plug is $$$$?

Well I have a Volt already so i have a Level II charge station but the goal is to be able to charge very quickly using any level II charge station availlable!

Doc

 

[ridethelightning]

nice work.
looking forward to see some more developements

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey guys My charge coil is finally perfectly working now!!

Just Remember... the Adaptto controller have the feature to charge your battery desired voltage from ANY power supply voltage and it will regulate current and voltage itself :wink:

The coil and caps remain cold ( 25-30 Celsius at 1050Watts)

I have built many different coil from various core that i had and finally i decided to order the "E" shape core that the russian site was recommanding ( Jeka on the forum) and i have used 50 strands of insulated 22 gauge copper that i twisted and paralleled together and wound 18 turn. The total strands are equivalent to a gauge 5 wire withc can take 60-70A continuous very easy!!

I have 112uH inductance in serie and 1200uF 100V caps in parallel to the power supply.

I have measured the coil resistance and it is 3 miliohm. ( 0.3V at 100A DC)

At 70A of power supply current it would dissipate 14.7watts only... not bad !!

This work perfectly and i was said that this setup is good to charge at up to 3 to 4 kW!

I am really happy now!!


[youtube]pJtUT9-CF9s[/youtube]

(Same post on the NYX bike project)

Doc

 

[liamcaff]

Nice work Doc!

 

[liveforphysics]

Awesome work Doc! That's a very nice inductor build! You might be able to fit enough charging to max out a J1772 with your bicycle if you package it well.

 

[adam333]

Great project and an awesome frame Doc !

How much weight will be added on the bike with the onboard charger?

 

[Doctorbass]

Great project and an awesome frame Doc !

How much weight will be added on the bike with the onboard charger?

About 1.5kg.

Doc

 

[diggler]

Cool!
Do you have 2 more meanwells lying around?
So you can try 3kw.

 

[broke]

I have adaptto mini e 70a coil and I'm charging with a old 36v 4a charger.
I have 2 36v 4a charges can I put them series and charge my lipo 84v pack?
Or can I use my icharger 306b at 12v 30a?
I want to use the chargers I have before buying a new charger what do you think. thanks doc.

 

[Doctorbass]

I have adaptto mini e 70a coil and I'm charging with a old 36v 4a charger.
I have 2 36v 4a charges can I put them series and charge my lipo 84v pack?
Or can I use my icharger 306b at 12v 30a?
I want to use the chargers I have before buying a new charger what do you think. thanks doc.

Yes you can connect them in serie but you will need to add a shottky diode in parallel to each of your actual 36v charger output and also to configure your adaptto to draw a little bit less current than the rated current of your psu.. ex 3.5A instead of 4. and it should work

Doc

 

[John in CR]

Hi Doc,

Nice work. Regarding the charging thru the Adaptto, does it accept any voltage higher or lower than pack voltage, or just higher than pack voltage? Does it also work during operation, so it can take input from say solar panels while riding.

During the dyno test, what's your estimated temperature in the room, or of the motor for the first pull if you think it was colder than ambient? Also, what was the speed or rpm at peak power, and wheel diameter or circumference?

You have amazing patience to wait for months to ride that beauty.

John

 

[striker54]

John in CR,

Charging thru Adaptto, the voltage has to be lower than the minimum pack voltage and it doesn't work during operation.

best regards.

 

[Doctorbass]

Hi Doc,

Nice work. Regarding the charging thru the Adaptto, does it accept any voltage higher or lower than pack voltage, or just higher than pack voltage? Does it also work during operation, so it can take input from say solar panels while riding.

During the dyno test, what's your estimated temperature in the room, or of the motor for the first pull if you think it was colder than ambient? Also, what was the speed or rpm at peak power, and wheel diameter or circumference?

You have amazing patience to wait for months to ride that beauty.

John

Striker54 is right. The motor have to be connected and it is mentioned to not activate the throttle while charging because it could break the controller. I am not sure if the motor inductance are used for the charging but i think not. In fact the Adaptto charging input use two wires and one of those is any of the 3 phase wire and the other is a dedicated chcfarging input. I think that the way it work is that the pwm for controlling the charging current and also for the external boost coil pwm are using one of the 3 set of phase mosfet. that is simple and brilliant. the external coil is only to make a energy storage that the boost circuit use to increase the voltage of the power supply used for charging. it is not a buck converter, it's a boost converter circuit so it can only increase the voltage of the power supply source and not reduce it.

At the peak power measured ( witch was 8.4hp + the 2.1hp negative hp not compensated in the graph) so it is 10.5hp max at 104km/h and the torque at that speed was about 55lb-ft and the diameter of the wheel in the air is 20.25"

ALso the torque was 109lb-ft at 29km/h.. we did not recorded the torque at lower speed if i remember.

I will post many graph and all the dyno test we did soon. i have about 13 test and more than 40 videos lol....

The motor temp was 32C shown immediatly after the run 11 and the temp sensor is very small and is located right on the winding with thermal paste. The 134 displayed is the alarm temp. Normally that controller have a temp sensor input that can be connected to it to control the motor relative to the temp of the winding but i had not installed it yet i only had my old 100k thermistor from the bbq temp meter. On teh run 12 you can see the negative hp witch it the only time we have recorded it.. . Normally we should have recorded a compensation ramp FIRST before all our test... but the guy with the dyno had not informed us until this run...

The ambiant temp was between 15-20C

The tire was slipping easy on the dyno drum so we had to attach the bike prety tight andthe pressure on the rear wheel was significant so that added negative hp ( hp not measured) due to the added friction that the drum dont measure..

Here are the data:

 

[Doctorbass]

In all our tests we never used the OVS ( timimng advance feature) also called flux weakening. so the max speed is 166kmh no load

With the OVS set to 7 te motor reack 189kmh no load at any battery voltage from discharged to full charged witch make me think that it goes way faster than that. it's rteh controlelr speed limit in the firmware that dont let it to go faster from what i have understand ( probably in term of speed and not RPM.. if i would set the wheel larder the max rpm would be slower.

The OVS setting is a feature with alot of tuning and other tuning parameters to optimize and get more hp. I did not have tested these yet.

with a fine tuned Adaptto some are capable to get 100+kmh with only 18s and a normal kv motor of 9.6...

I am curious to know the hp number i could have if i would set the OVS enable and fine tune it

As well it always depend on the power input limit like max batt current and voltage.. and my adaptto is still running on a locked firmware. ao it limit the current to 138A batt current. Some reported using 200A batt current on their adaptto if i remember. that woudl be like 17kW batt power at 85V with resonable voltage sag.

What impress me is that this epic X5 motor dont seem to saturate yet even at 338A phase input...

Over all the 13 dyno test we did we progressively increased the batt and phase current and the hp look like very close to proportional. That motor is a kv of 18! so we did not wanted to explode the controler too soon

I just wonder now at witch hp that motor would saturate...

All the current similar size hub motor that i say on YT and the forum never reached more than about 9-10hp at the dyno including the dick edition C-lyte Luke tested at the Zero dyno :lol:



Doc

 

[ridethelightning]

interesting.
any idea of how a cromotor would fare in straight comparison to the x5?

 

[Doctorbass]

interesting.
any idea of how a cromotor would fare in straight comparison to the x5?

That is an excellent question and that's one i need to answer... once i will get my own cromo! :wink:

Remember that on E-S the epic X5 was in 2006-2007 just like what is the cromotor today.. That was the beast! of all hub motor... 8 years before... but it still perform well.. It only have 32mm stator and magnet!! but is heavy of steel.. so it take more time to heat.... and more time to cool down too :lol: I think that between all the X5 winding, the 5302 is the more capable of high output due to the copper fill. The 10.5hp i got at the wheel with my last dyno test was like nothing for it... i just felt that it was even not close to saturate... That was the controller that limited the power due to the locked settings ( my Max-E is still not unlocked witch allow more power but void warranty too)

if i can get 10.5hp or more from that X5 motor with only 32mm stator.. now imagine what i can get with a cromotor of 50mm stator and better lamination. I would expect at least 15-16hp minimum.

From what i understand i have better chance of high hp with a fast winding motor than a slow winding motor... in other words it is better to make your controller take the shit than your motor... but you need a strong controller capable of ultra high phase current without poping mosfet... That's why i keep using 22s and not 24s with the max-E

Doc

 

[ridethelightning]

btw. sorry if this is baltently obvious somewhere, but will a cro fit in the nyx swingarm?
i would think it would if an x5 will..

 

[Doctorbass]

btw. sorry if this is baltently obvious somewhere, but will a cro fit in the nyx swingarm?
i would think it would if an x5 will..

YES no prob with a cromo... that,s what I will also install on my NYX

Well I fact you can fit any hub motor. You can request also for larger swing arm.

Doc

 

[Archer]

A bit curious,what if any set backs or limited production etc might NYX have due to an unsuccessful KickStarter goal?

Anyway I just love following along with the great DoctorBass!

Happy to you all.

Tim.