Title sums it up. I'm working on a new transport ebike. 150 to 200Kg total weight, pretty steep hills. 10-20 miles/day. I'm weighting the pros and cons of converting a long John (Bullitt style) or long tail 2 wheel cargo or adapting / designing a new delta trike.
Cargo Trike vs Long wheelbase Bike
- Thread starter qwerkus
- Start date
Depends on the kind of cargo and the roads/paths you take.
If it's all small stuff, either type can work, and you will generally have a better ride (over non-smooth roads) on the regular bike becuase it's easy to use large diameter wheels at both ends.
A Bullitt has small wheels and no options to change them without significant geometry alteration at the front (and frame may limit tire size at the rear, though wheel size is at least a little bigger than the front) so teh ride quality can suffer on potholey/bumpy roads, driveway edges, sidewalk paths, etc, but it can carry larger cargo, and carry all cargo more centered and lower down so it could handle better loaded.
A delta trike designed like a cross between my SB Cruiser (medium to large cargo area, low deck) and my Raine Trike (big rear wheels) would be better for some conditions, but it's heavier so it's going to take more power going up the hills, and less aero so noticeably more power at speeds above around 15MPH.
If it's all small stuff, either type can work, and you will generally have a better ride (over non-smooth roads) on the regular bike becuase it's easy to use large diameter wheels at both ends.
A Bullitt has small wheels and no options to change them without significant geometry alteration at the front (and frame may limit tire size at the rear, though wheel size is at least a little bigger than the front) so teh ride quality can suffer on potholey/bumpy roads, driveway edges, sidewalk paths, etc, but it can carry larger cargo, and carry all cargo more centered and lower down so it could handle better loaded.
A delta trike designed like a cross between my SB Cruiser (medium to large cargo area, low deck) and my Raine Trike (big rear wheels) would be better for some conditions, but it's heavier so it's going to take more power going up the hills, and less aero so noticeably more power at speeds above around 15MPH.
Chalo
100 TW
If a two wheeler will do the job, it will be a whole lot more pleasant to ride, and more efficient at turning energy into distance. Longtail is by far the most comfortable layout-- like having suspension, without any of the drawbacks.
I made my cargo bike like a cycle truck-- small front wheel, front load over the the top of the wheel, direct steering. But I did it that way so I could park it almost anyplace I could park a regular bike, including inside my room as appropriate. It is less comfortable than it might have been with another layout, and it behaves strangely when heavily loaded (compared to a low bed design).
I made my cargo bike like a cycle truck-- small front wheel, front load over the the top of the wheel, direct steering. But I did it that way so I could park it almost anyplace I could park a regular bike, including inside my room as appropriate. It is less comfortable than it might have been with another layout, and it behaves strangely when heavily loaded (compared to a low bed design).
@Amberwolf:
Actually some germans came up with pretty cool mods to get better suspension on long johns:
- Bullitt full suspension mod: http://www.cargobike-darmstadt.de/20-000km-mit-dem-bullitt/4075 It actually lead to the development of the super expensive R&M full suspension "load 60" long john
- The Sub Cargo with scooter wheel mod: http://werkstatt-lastenrad.de/index.php?title=Sports_Utility_Bike_aka_THESUB
- Fatbike Long John: https://retrovelo.de/lastenrad-ponyjohn/
@Chalo:
You mean something like this:
Looks quite unstable with a load point that high
My cargo should definitely bring some sort of suspension, and a very robust base structure. It will carry kids, goods and go for a 6-7000km trip next summer, packing all the stuff our small family needs! So I'm guessing 2 wheeler with a low maintenance 2000W DD motor.
Actually some germans came up with pretty cool mods to get better suspension on long johns:
- Bullitt full suspension mod: http://www.cargobike-darmstadt.de/20-000km-mit-dem-bullitt/4075 It actually lead to the development of the super expensive R&M full suspension "load 60" long john
- The Sub Cargo with scooter wheel mod: http://werkstatt-lastenrad.de/index.php?title=Sports_Utility_Bike_aka_THESUB
- Fatbike Long John: https://retrovelo.de/lastenrad-ponyjohn/
@Chalo:
You mean something like this:
Looks quite unstable with a load point that high
My cargo should definitely bring some sort of suspension, and a very robust base structure. It will carry kids, goods and go for a 6-7000km trip next summer, packing all the stuff our small family needs! So I'm guessing 2 wheeler with a low maintenance 2000W DD motor.
Chalo
100 TW
qwerkus said:@Chalo:
You mean something like this:
Looks quite unstable with a load point that high
That's not a cycle truck. That's a Bilenky type front loader, with linkage steering. A cycle truck has direct steering:
Here's mine:
Carrying a heavy load high on the bike is good, as long as you're moving. It becomes ungainly when loading, unloading, walking the bike, or doing tight and slow maneuvers. When underway, it's actually better than having the load down low.
Chalo said:
Thanks for clearing that up. Your bike looks really funny. How is it not flipping over with a full load and no rider ?!? Though I really love the minimalist look. I just read an article about how the ebike revolution is turning into a "Bike-SUV" devolution, as motorisation allows for greater weight and suddenly vendor pack their bikes with a ton of useless stuff just to make it cool. Definitely not your problem. What's the handle on the seatpost for ?
dogman dan
1 PW
Two wheel longtail for most needs will ride better. Turns nicer, doesn't pull to the side if the road has lots of crown, and depending, might be narrower, allowing easier riding through pain in the ass bollards on mup's.
But if you are amberwolf, taking giant dog kennels to the vets, then you need a trike that is literally a small pickup truck.
Just depends on your needs. I built a monster cargo bike, and loved it. But later on downsized to a more moderately wide and long cargo bike, and loved it more. Great grocery getter. The third cargo bike was the real winner, basically trying to copy a bike grin was selling. Lowering the rear deck on the third cargo bike helped it when loading and unloading more than while riding. It was more a by product of the small rear wheel on number three.
Bike one carried the most, and had full suspension for riding a dirt road with camping gear.
Bike two, more of a grocery getter, and designed primarily to tow a bob trailer for larger loads. Without the trailer, it could still carry a lot, but trailer to the grocery for sure.
Bike three, had the lowest speed, and was designed to tow a trailer on the minimum power, even up steep hills.
But if you are amberwolf, taking giant dog kennels to the vets, then you need a trike that is literally a small pickup truck.
Just depends on your needs. I built a monster cargo bike, and loved it. But later on downsized to a more moderately wide and long cargo bike, and loved it more. Great grocery getter. The third cargo bike was the real winner, basically trying to copy a bike grin was selling. Lowering the rear deck on the third cargo bike helped it when loading and unloading more than while riding. It was more a by product of the small rear wheel on number three.
Bike one carried the most, and had full suspension for riding a dirt road with camping gear.
Bike two, more of a grocery getter, and designed primarily to tow a bob trailer for larger loads. Without the trailer, it could still carry a lot, but trailer to the grocery for sure.
Bike three, had the lowest speed, and was designed to tow a trailer on the minimum power, even up steep hills.
qwerkus said:
Those front loaders with steering linkages seem to be excessively complicated. The truck style seems like a pretty straightforward evolution of the bicycle for cargo use but with the balance, loading and small front wheel issues.
Dogman Dan's #3 seems pretty simple, a fairly traditional design just stretched out and with a 20" rear wheel. You get to use a full size front wheel and suspension at both ends if you want to design it in (like #1).
If you want to call that an SUV, that's fine but if the alternative is driving a car, I don't think it deserves any negative connotation. Electric drive or assist just allows for you to ride more bike on a regular basis for sport and utility, that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
That's exactly what I want but I would like to also make it fit the racks used by my local transit agencies as a get home/range extension method.
Chalo
100 TW
qwerkus said:
The head angle is slack enough (68 degrees) that the load sits pretty much directly over the front contact patch. I originally intended the thing to carry a passenger, so the sloping load bed was a feature to keep the passenger firmly against the backrest. It has the effect of shifting whatever is in the box to the rear of the container. The rest of the bike isn't especially heavy, but it's long enough to effectively counterbalance anything I've loaded into the box so far. I only have to concern myself with it tipping over sideways.
It's to give me a place to grab when I'm heaving the bike around, other than the saddle. It was just as easy to leave a little bit of the original top tube as it was to cut it completely off. I'm on the lookout for a hard vinyl 1" handgrip, because the rubber one sometimes grabs my pants when I pedal.
Chalo
100 TW
Smoke said:
Dig this crazy, ingenious design:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771670310/flip-the-convertible-ebike
That's a neat trick but probably falls in to the overly complicated group. I have to wonder about chassis stiffness too.
I think my local transit agencies have racks designed for a wheelbase of 46" but I think I can push it a bit more because mine won't be a 29er. I'm hoping for 48-50" with my wheel size and then packaging around that to get good geometry and hold a 2 kwh battery pack gracefully.
I think my local transit agencies have racks designed for a wheelbase of 46" but I think I can push it a bit more because mine won't be a 29er. I'm hoping for 48-50" with my wheel size and then packaging around that to get good geometry and hold a 2 kwh battery pack gracefully.
dogman dan
1 PW
FWIW, even my longest bike was still plenty nimble for city riding. It was however powered up with a big ass rear motor, making it ride a bit more like a small motorcycle or moped.
Cool trick though, for some things, like parking it in the house, that folding shorter. The space it took in my garage was one reason I went to more semi long tail in bike 2 and 3.
Chalos bike is bad ass too btw, sorry if I failed to say that again. I need to break out the welder and make one.
My bike 3 was primarily made for extreme long rides in mountains. So its design choices, including the motor, were driven mostly by being able to carry up to 4 48v 20 ah batteries, and limiting top speed to about 18 mph to maximize range. That was the bike who's battery burned my garage, so I have only bike 2 left at the moment.
I came to love the long tail design best, because the seat is not over the rear wheel. This gives me a much more comfortable ride for a wrecked lower back. This meant a 60 mile ride would not kill me on a bike with no suspension.
Cool trick though, for some things, like parking it in the house, that folding shorter. The space it took in my garage was one reason I went to more semi long tail in bike 2 and 3.
Chalos bike is bad ass too btw, sorry if I failed to say that again. I need to break out the welder and make one.
My bike 3 was primarily made for extreme long rides in mountains. So its design choices, including the motor, were driven mostly by being able to carry up to 4 48v 20 ah batteries, and limiting top speed to about 18 mph to maximize range. That was the bike who's battery burned my garage, so I have only bike 2 left at the moment.
I came to love the long tail design best, because the seat is not over the rear wheel. This gives me a much more comfortable ride for a wrecked lower back. This meant a 60 mile ride would not kill me on a bike with no suspension.
It seems Yuba now also sells in Europe: https://www.yubaeurope.com/ & https://yubabikes.fr/
The Mundo seems a pretty affordable long tail - it might give it a try. IIRC there are some conversion mods here in the forum for this bike. Welding my own would be much better, but I don't have enough spare time.
Looks like Yuba also sell a long john with cable steering:
The Mundo seems a pretty affordable long tail - it might give it a try. IIRC there are some conversion mods here in the forum for this bike. Welding my own would be much better, but I don't have enough spare time.
Looks like Yuba also sell a long john with cable steering:
wturber
1 MW
Chalo said:
I like this design a lot. It seems to be a pivoting variation of the longtails that some here have made by bolting the rear triangle of a bike into the main bike's dropouts. But they've cleverly included a pivot and a wide basket area in the main rear triangle space. Given that the extended longtails and Radical leaps are sturdy enough and this design seems to be fully triangulated. I'd expect this to be plenty rigid. And it seems elegantly simple to me. Not complex. I am, however, having trouble figuring out a good rear fender config for this thing though.
The jackshaft pivot allows for the wheelbase length conversion but it requires two chains and that jackshaft seems like the only thing keeping the rear wheel from twisting side to side in long tail mode.
I wouldn't be terribly optimistic about its stiffness.
The rest of the rear triangle might limit the twist but I think a little twist is enough to feel flexible and if it has any slop that would be an annoying feel.
There is a famous quote about complexity that I vaguely remember which goes something like: the proper amount of complexity is as much as required and no more.
Some long tails have the the rear triangle extended so the entire bike can stand up vertically upon the extended tubes (in an elevator for example), without a rack or hook. That elegantly solves the bulky storage issue somewhat.
When you are riding, the long tail doesn't seem to be much of an issue so that convertible seems to be on the wrong side of the complexity quote.
It does look neat but I think I would want to ride it before taking a chance on an expensive Kickstarter and I'm still not sure if it solves anything better than the simple way.
I wouldn't be terribly optimistic about its stiffness.
The rest of the rear triangle might limit the twist but I think a little twist is enough to feel flexible and if it has any slop that would be an annoying feel.
There is a famous quote about complexity that I vaguely remember which goes something like: the proper amount of complexity is as much as required and no more.
Some long tails have the the rear triangle extended so the entire bike can stand up vertically upon the extended tubes (in an elevator for example), without a rack or hook. That elegantly solves the bulky storage issue somewhat.
When you are riding, the long tail doesn't seem to be much of an issue so that convertible seems to be on the wrong side of the complexity quote.
It does look neat but I think I would want to ride it before taking a chance on an expensive Kickstarter and I'm still not sure if it solves anything better than the simple way.
Chalo
100 TW
qwerkus said:Looks like Yuba also sell a long john with cable steering:
That's normal tie rod linkage steering. Front loaders that use cable-linked steering are very uncommon.
Chalo
100 TW
Cables fatigue when worked around a spool or sheave that's too small for their diameter. http://thecableconnection.com/wire-rope/wire-rope-cable/pulley-diameter-by-cable-strand
Hugh-Jassman
1 kW
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2015
- Messages
- 407
Now this is something that would be too complex for most people, but I have been looking at it and think it is not too bad. This is not overly complex, it just takes time to understand it. Like the center of gravity must be high enough to be able to tilt. So if it is loaded with bricks it maynot tilt enough. But the rest of the time it would work.
I think the front axles should be only 6-8” back from the nose to support heavy loads better. (depending on the total length). If I can use cables for the steering, I could avoid putting the steer tube down the center of the cargo bed/box.
And I would need to make sure it will handle at least 600 total combined pounds that will need a larger than 3000watt motor which would need a battery of at least 4kWh.
I just barely get by with my small trailer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljGXchnVUxE&t=17s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZaUkOt870g&t=30s
I think the front axles should be only 6-8” back from the nose to support heavy loads better. (depending on the total length). If I can use cables for the steering, I could avoid putting the steer tube down the center of the cargo bed/box.
And I would need to make sure it will handle at least 600 total combined pounds that will need a larger than 3000watt motor which would need a battery of at least 4kWh.
I just barely get by with my small trailer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljGXchnVUxE&t=17s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZaUkOt870g&t=30s
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