Cash for Clubbers - another bright idea by the Feds

Papa

100 kW
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574473724099542430.html

"We thought cash for clunkers was the ultimate waste of taxpayer money, but as usual we were too optimistic. Thanks to the federal tax credit to buy high-mileage cars that was part of President Obama's stimulus plan, Uncle Sam is now paying Americans to buy that great necessity of modern life, the golf cart.

The federal credit provides from $4,200 to $5,500 for the purchase of an electric vehicle, and when it is combined with similar incentive plans in many states the tax credits can pay for nearly the entire cost of a golf cart. Even in states that don't have their own tax rebate plans, the federal credit is generous enough to pay for half or even two-thirds of the average sticker price of a cart, which is typically in the range of $8,000 to $10,000. "The purchase of some models could be absolutely free," Roger Gaddis of Ada Electric Cars in Oklahoma said earlier this year. "Is that about the coolest thing you've ever heard?"


The golf-cart boom has followed an IRS ruling that golf carts qualify for the electric-car credit as long as they are also road worthy. These qualifying golf carts are essentially the same as normal golf carts save for adding some safety features, such as side and rearview mirrors and three-point seat belts. They typically can go 15 to 25 miles per hour.

In South Carolina, sales of these carts have been soaring as dealerships alert customers to Uncle Sam's giveaway. "The Golf Cart Man" in the Villages of Lady Lake, Florida is running a banner online ad that declares: "GET A FREE GOLF CART. Or make $2,000 doing absolutely nothing!"

Golf Cart Man is referring to his offer in which you can buy the cart for $8,000, get a $5,300 tax credit off your 2009 income tax, lease it back for $100 a month for 27 months, at which point Golf Cart Man will buy back the cart for $2,000. "This means you own a free Golf Cart or made $2,000 cash doing absolutely nothing!!!" You can't blame a guy for exploiting loopholes that Congress offers.

The IRS has also ruled that there's no limit to how many electric cars an individual can buy, so some enterprising profiteers are stocking up on multiple carts while the federal credit lasts, in order to resell them at a profit later. We should note that some states, such as Oklahoma, have caught on to the giveaway and are debating whether to cancel or limit their state credits. But in Congress they're still on the driving range.

This golf-cart fiasco perfectly illustrates tax policy in the age of Obama, when politicians dole out credits and loopholes for everything from plug-in cars to fuel efficient appliances, home insulation and vitamins. Democrats then insist that to pay for these absurdities they have no choice but to raise tax rates on other things—like work and investment—that aren't politically in vogue. If this keeps up, it'll soon make more sense to retire and play golf than work for living."
 
Papa,

If the IRS "allowed" golf carts to be qualified as an EV just because they have added safety equipment (brake lights, turn signals, etc)... then it serves to reason that if we equip an eBike in such a manor that it would meet or exceed motor vehicle registration as an experimental or kit vehicle... we should be able to claim the deduction too?

I'm no lawyer but to me it seems the IRS has established the minimum bar for EV qualificatin as "capable of passing inspection and being registered" then that same minimum would apply to eBikes so long as:
1.) The IRS didn't specify four or three wheels
2.) The IRS didn't specify NO 2 wheeled evs

I for one am in planning stages of 2 street legal, registered eBikes with full safety equipment (turn signals, mirrors, horn, brake lights, night lighting, etc) and if I read the ruling correctly I should be able to qualify (well me and the other person who is doing this and actually inspired me to do my own) for the rebate incentive.

If they deny the claim then I guess I just push it to the appeal courts for reversal...

Functionally speaking an eBike that goes 35 and has safety equipment is actually much more environmentally friendly than a golf cart or well... anything I can think of with a motor of any kind (ever try to pedal a moped?)

Just my .02c

-Mike
 
mwkeefer said:
... then it serves to reason that if we equip an eBike in such a manor that it would meet or exceed motor vehicle registration as an experimental or kit vehicle... we should be able to claim the deduction too?
Kinda what I was thinkin' too, (just need to hang a motor and some batteries on it :wink: ):

1z5hkr4.jpg
 
Id go for broke if we can write it off.. get ahold of recumpece and order a dual stage ms eDrive with a nice astro... actually it might be a good idea to get him to sell you a complete setup - Im sure he can source the turn signals, brake lights, etc... This would be killer and honestly if you can write it off... what do you care what it costs ?

I will look into this more tommorow (contact a Tax attorney or the IRS directly) because heck.. 2009 almost over, best to place orders and pay now to be able to deduct so we need to figure if this is truly possible...

Really I hadn't even thought of trikes... even better than 2 wheel ebike.

Have a look at the Segway site, they have a model which is used as a golf cart - they have a sweet club bag setup you could replicate in the rear or even side mounted durring "play"

Actually now that I mention it, the Segway i2 / x2 for golf use wouldn't make the cut for an ev (unless I miss somthing) since you couldn't make them road worthy but that bag is cool.

-Mike
 
mwkeefer said:
If the IRS "allowed" golf carts to be qualified as an EV just because they have added safety equipment (brake lights, turn signals, etc)... then it serves to reason that if we equip an eBike in such a manor that it would meet or exceed motor vehicle registration as an experimental or kit vehicle... we should be able to claim the deduction too?
If that turns out ot be the case, I'm all set already with CrazyBike2. :)
 
mwkeefer said:
Id go for broke if we can write it off.. get ahold of recumpece and order a dual stage ms eDrive with a nice astro... actually it might be a good idea to get him to sell you a complete setup - Im sure he can source the turn signals, brake lights, etc... This would be killer and honestly if you can write it off... what do you care what it costs ?

I will look into this more tommorow (contact a Tax attorney or the IRS directly) because heck.. 2009 almost over, best to place orders and pay now to be able to deduct so we need to figure if this is truly possible...-Mike

Yeah, I was a little suprised this topic hasn't come up here yet. When I first read that went a searched the forums only to find this thread - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13365
- no mention of the credit.

I think the kicker is you have to be a registred manufacture of EV's to have your vehicle qualify. Here is some more info - http://www.streetlegalcar.com/id10.html

But I could see liveforphysics getting one of these and turn it into some thing completely insane - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13906 :mrgreen:
 
:D. 800hp, 1000lbs curb weight LiPo powered dragster with 2 miles of range, and 2 miles of brush life :)

Slap some turn signals and brake lights on it, an "on-road" 25mph speed governer, and register it as a neighborhood EV. :)

I have a hunch that "on-road" swith wouldn't get much use ;)
 
The world is nuts these days. This girl probably makes at least $50000 /year looking into a camera and saying "hi".

Life is not fair.

She's #1 most subscribed in Japan on youtube. I know that Dave's farm guy makes $10000 per month on Youtube. This girl gets more views than he does so I'm going to say that she makes $50000/year at least. She probably makes $100000 - $200000. Whatthebuck guy on youtube makes $200000 per year on youtube.

[youtube]HSrcIqGYDDU[/youtube]
 
Too bad you can't drive your street legal car on the cart paths. :lol:

Seriously though, if a low speed street legal EV meets the legal requirements then they should get the tax credit. At least later on there will be a shitload of NEV's out there to be bought on the used market, by folks who don't play golf. And those rich folks tend to live near the course anyway, so maybe they will take the cart instead of the humvee to drive the 2 miles to the clubhouse. Without the seatbelts, etc, they would have been illegal to do that.

It's true though, rich people get all the tax breaks. I sure don't have the cash to put solar hot water, buy an electric car, etc right now. It's too bad we don't get a $350 tax credit for buying 16 headway cells! Making a good lithium battery cost half as much would really stimulate E bikes.
 
The facts:

http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=42

Golf Cars Do NOT Qualify for Tax Credit, NEVs Do!
By Bill Moore

some excerpts


I hate to disappoint John Stossel, but golf carts do not qualify for IRS tax credits as he bemoans in his Fox News blog. Just because some enterprising salesman in Florida named Tony Colangelo appears to be skating on thin ice with the IRS by advertising free golf cars, doesn't mean the Obama Administration has suddenly sanctioned yet another taxpayer giveaway.

However, despite the outward similarity between a conventional gas or electric golf car and something like the GEM or the now-defunct Think neighbor, the two vehicle types are miles apart in safety and engineering. GEM is a division of Chrysler and as such, has, over the years, upgraded its components to automotive grade equipment. Where the typical golf cart is 36-48 volts, the GEM is 72 volts.

.07 Low Speed Vehicle. The term “low speed vehicle” means a vehicle:
(1) That has at least four wheels;
(2) That is manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads and highways (not including a vehicle operated exclusively on a rail or rails);
(3) That is not manufactured primarily for off-road use, such as primarily for use on a golf course;
(4) Whose speed attainable in one mile is more than 20 miles per hour and not more than 25 miles per hour on a paved level surface; and
(5) Whose gross vehicle weight rating is less than 3,000 pounds.

While a common electric golf car can have a kilowatt hour capacity in excess of 4 kWh, they still do not qualify for the credit as is pointed out on Golf Car News. The tax credit is clearly designed for NEVs that meet FMVSS 500 standards, not your run-of-the-mill golf car, customized or not.

Now I suspect that Mr. Stossel really doesn't care about such nuances of IRS tax code and what distinguishes a common garden variety golf car from a truly street legal NEV, but as a few folks have learned, they can meet a lot of their personal mobility needs with a NEV and leave the gas-hog in the garage, saving money, employing American workers in Georgia, North Dakota and Minnesota, while reducing the nation's dependence on imported oil; and I would have thought a conservative, dollars 'n cents, national security kind-a-guy like John would appreciate that fact.
 
I'm thinking a NEV, something like this, but fitted with an 800hp electric motor setup and LiPo, and of course the all critical 25mph "on-road" switch :)


top-fuel-dragster-burnout.jpg
 
opinion:

I think that the Neighborhood Electric Vehicle movement could be very useful, but not in its current state.

Consider that NEV's can't be used on roads over 35mph speed limit. Heck, I can take my human powered bike on roads over 40mph if i wish.

NEV Speed is governed to 25mph max no matter what. I get that on my way home every bike ride.

Where to charge NEV away from home? My ebike charges at Safeway by the Coke machine, with management's OK.

NEV's dont have the ability to let me help move the thing. I can pedal my ebike .

NEV wont fit on a bus rack- most ebikes will

Hardly anybody will work on NEV's except dealership where purchased. I have two bike shops here.

NEV Mandatory 4 wheels, can't be 3 or two. Cant use the bike path, sidewalk or bike lane to escape the pickup trucks.

I personally think that using the moped (~6hp) law of more use. sometimes MOPED's have pedals, they can be gas, electric or combination. They can be 3 wheeled. frequently can use the bike lane.

Just put an enclosure around a 3 wheeled trike, give it 3 hp emotor, a little tiny gas engine for charging, make it a light weight moped. Take it on any road.

Yeah, This NEV law needs to be modernized.
 
In addition to 4 wheels, I believe it needs to be made by a manufacturer. Tax credits for conversions is substantially lower, if any. I'm surprised the IRS ruled that NEVs qualify, because when I looked at the code late last year the wording was that qualified vehicles started at passenger cars, which meant highway capable and all the safety regs that entails. NEVs are a whole different ballgame, and a 4 wheel EV much closer to bikes and trikes than automobiles could be made to legitimately qualify as a NEV. With a large battery pack, free or even a negative price after tax is possible.

John
 
Guys,

The previous post about FOX news? Comeon really, FOX news?

Don't you guys watch the daily show? Fox is only news from 10-12pm and 6-8pm, the rest is FOX "entertainment" but... if you ever watch, the damn FOX NEWS people actually cite daytime FOX sources all the time referring to "Some people are saying" method they always use to cook the BS they call news.

Sorry this just disturbed me and I had to rant.

With regards to the qualifications of eBikes for federal credits... I have contacted a long time family friend who was an IRS agent and tax attorney (sadly my uncle passed away a few years back, he was the chief corporate tax attorney for J&J N.A. - he would have loved this, to add to his boat and plane (and kit heli - 2 person, not model)) he will be researching the issue for me and I expect a response monday / tuesday with sufficient case law / history to backup whatever he discovers.

Somthing it seems we have all overlooked here, there is no LIMIT on EVs which may be purchased and written off (if they qualify) which would mean we could (someone, collectively, corporate, whatver) buy up as many ebikes as we wanted... write them off then resell them. Instant potential profit (if its possible) and simplistic (okay maybe not simplistic) manor to get ebikes down 50% in price (if we can get 50 of them for free why not sell them half of retail?).

If there is a way to claim an eBike... my friend (actually my Godfather and close friend of my Uncle) will be able to locate the applicable tax code / rulings. He may have advice on ways to "shoehorn" ourselves into the qualification...

Another possible option - Buy a damn cart, lease it back to this guy for a year or whatever then sell it for 2k to him in the end and buy an ebike with the proceeds. Yea it's the long way and requires an initial investment but since this guy guarantees the lease and buy out at the end (like a cell phone tower) it should be possible to use the cart as collateral for a short payout of a structured settlement (it's kinda what this is right?) - worst case scenario, you end up with a useless golf cart for free (bet luke could do somthing with it).

-Mike
 
morph999 said:
The world is nuts these days. This girl probably makes at least $50000 /year looking into a camera and saying "hi".

Hope i'm not too off topic but wtf is with all these japanese idols. For such a civilized/prosperous country, their dental care suck ass. Don't they understand the importance of removing baby teeth and let the permanent one grows in. The teeth grows in all over the place. It doesn't look cute. In a way it's painful.

Back to the issues. Do these golf carts have such amenities as air bag, headlights, turn signal? How can something with such low crash test rating receive EV tax credit. I hope the roomful of lawmaker that make this loophole will foot this bill.
 
ngocthach1130 said:
morph999 said:
The world is nuts these days. This girl probably makes at least $50000 /year looking into a camera and saying "hi".

Hope i'm not too off topic but wtf is with all these japanese idols. For such a civilized/prosperous country, their dental care suck ass. Don't they understand the importance of removing baby teeth and let the permanent one grows in. The teeth grows in all over the place. It doesn't look cute. In a way it's painful.

Back to the issues. Do these golf carts have such amenities as air bag, headlights, turn signal? How can something with such low crash test rating receive EV tax credit. I hope the roomful of lawmaker that make this loophole will foot this bill.

The requirements are termed as "Road worthy" most states require vehicles:
1.) Can acheive minimum posted speed limit - 25mph in pa
2.) Have headlights, turn signals, brake lights, running lights/parking lights (third light required in PA too)
3.) Mirror(s) - one minimum
4.) Seat belts - Unless PA decided to let golf carts slip as farm equipment they would require seat belts (most states the same) but I think most states don't require airbags and such.
5.) Ignition key - actually required, a real key. Not sure but I think you have to get a waiver from the state as a manufacturer if you don't have a real key (ie: new cars with rfid type keys).
6.) Emissions - nada... 0 emissions, but watch the states try to regulate us based on the Lead or Lithium we carry as a power source = (_ - give it a while.
7.) Insurance - All but 4 US states (exceptions are not members to the "Interstate Fair Driver Act" - hope that's right, been a while) require insurance as part of the definition "Road worthy" - this is a new insurance industry, wonder the risk or liability for golf carts used on the roadways... we have amis here in PA (lancaster) so I see alot of horse and buggy but... well atleast the golf carts don't crap in the street (can see myself with a blue bag picking up horse shit!)

So that covers it (even the ridiculous parts) for the "bare minimum" state level requirement for "road worthy"... some states (most?) have odd laws on the books which may or may not apply to golf carts... eBikes on the other hand are blanket covered by federal law protecting their status as Consumer Electronic Devices - this is protection from some of the silly rules in the motor vehicle codes since it can't be considered a motor vehicle... issue now will be if we write the eBike off, does it now "because it is roadworthy, means inspected means subject to motor vehicle code??"

-Mike
 
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