Changing the UK (EU?) law regarding e-bikes.

[maxwell]

A suggestion to the powers that be.

To promote high efficency vehicles for general personal transport how about one step above the EAPC rules (250W 15.5MPH).

1. 1kW output, human hybrid to promote fitness.

2. No speed limiting, this would promote low drag designs.

3. I think insurance would be a good idea, displayed like tax, should be cheap enough.

4. No tax or MOT required, an inspection by a third party might be in order. The insurance company would have a vested interest in doing so, left up to the market it would be cheap or even included in the insurance cost.

Just what designs would evolve is worth thinking about.

 

[xyster]

A suggestion to the powers that be.

Good Luck! I've not found those same institutional 'powers' at all amenable to suggestions from the peon gallery, no matter how logical or necessary.

 

[maxwell]

Yeah, I bet they all own oil shares.

Always worth dreaming...

 

[Miles]

Perhaps more realistic..:

1. 1kW

2. 35 Kph speed limit

3. Working pedals

4. Insurance

5. Simplified "Single Vehicle Approval"

6. Licensed, but free of tax

7. Bicycle helmet required

This is what the Low Powered Moped category should have been IMO.

 

[xyster]

Crazy, royalty-obsessed, surveillance-state UK people:

Don't feed the bureaucracy beast! It'll just demand more nanny-state bananas, over time encouraging people to be even more apathetic, disheartened, and unable to police or negotiate their own behavior, and so more dependent on their tax-dollar gobbling, freedom-usurping legislators and bureaucrats. Which, in turn, means society will require more bureaucracy until the financial burden finally topples the whole ball-of-wax as it did the former Soviet Union, and as the burden is already close to doing just about everywhere else (look at any nation's total national debt).
Encourage e-biking by keeping it less of a bureaucratic hassle than driving, not just as much, or more of a hassle.

1) Standard required safety equipment. Helmet required for under age 16.

2) Bike weight limit which includes batteries, but not person or person's carry-on luggage.

3) Speed limit same as bicycle speed limit.

4) Enforcement of basic road rules.

5) Electric bikes allowed every place regular bikes are.

6) Operable also on human power alone, be it via pedals, hand-cranks, rowing bars, whatever. Requirement wouldn't affect the disabled, since the condition is 'operable', not operated. Allows for design innovation also helpful to the disabled.


No registration; no insurance; no license; no power limit (unenforceable anyway); no helmets for adults.

--Wild West U.S. Xyster

 

[Mark_A_W]

I agree Xyster, except for Helmets.

Helmets have been law here for ~18 years. You just wear one, without thinking about it - like seatbelts in the car.

Before it was required it was impossible to get teenagers (me back then) to wear them. Now they do, because they are accepted, and it took legislation and about 5 years for that to happen.

I think you are mad if you ride a bike without one - a bike helmet saved my brother's life once.

 

[Rassy]

xyster is right, keep the bureaucratic part simplified. In Oregon, the current law requires you to be 16, but a 15 year old can get a learners permit for driving a car. 14 year olds can operate a power boat if they have their boating card. Seems like an ebike at 12 would make sense with perhaps a max speed rule.

Helmets are common sense on bikes. Literally all the road bike riders wear helmets even though they are not required for adults. ebike riders in Oregon are required to wear helmets. I'd say let it stay that way.

A weight restriction bothers me. My trike, trailer, batteries, etc. weigh around 200 pounds. Should it be illegal?

xyster hit the nail on the head. "no power limit (unenforceable anyway)". Oregon limits at 1000 Watts, and after seeing many discussions on the subject I still have no idea what it means or how it could be determined (by a cop, etc.)

And as far as speed, ebikes should fall into the same rules as regular bikes and other traffic.

I do think if we could ever have concensus on what the rules should be and figure out how to influence the regulations it would be a good thing.

 

[Miles]

We can all fantasise

What is realistically possible, though....

 

[Lowell]

Local power limits are there for manufacturers, so that high powered ebikes can't be bought in stores.

 

[xyster]

A weight restriction bothers me. My trike, trailer, batteries, etc. weigh around 200 pounds. Should it be illegal?

I don't think so. I didn't suggest a specific limit. How fast do you feel comfortable riding your bike with the trailer attached?

To thwart and to minimize the effects of accidents, I suggested a weight restriction so as to limit the ol' momentum (Momentum=Mass X Velocity) to a reasonable level, congruent to a bicycle-like-device's swerving and stopping ability. Speed limits address the Velocity portion of the equation already.

I think this is an important consideration since bicycle-like-devices often share sidewalks, parking lots, and multi-use paths with pedestrians.

The limit might make more technical sense if instead of two separate limits on mass and velocity, it was a single limit on momentum. So your 200lb bike w/trailer might be "legal" to 15mph, whereas a 100lb bike (electric or not) would be legal to 30mph. But there's a couple problems, not the least of which would be confusing, hard-to-quickly calculate signs like:

Momentum Limit:
3000 lbs*m/h

Though I suppose we could switch to Momentometers instead of Speedometers.

Another problem with the linear momentum limit idea would be inviting 10 lb carbon-fiber bikes (possibly carrying a 400lb rider) to fly downhill at 300 mph (though with the ever-accelerating pace of technology, this thought exercise is not without practical merit). Also, large differences in speed between nearby vehicles tend to promote accidents.

I don't like restrictions to consider the rider's weight because that's just too damn personally intrusive.

 

[Rassy]

xyster wrote:
I don't think so. I didn't suggest a specific limit. How fast do you feel comfortable riding your bike with the trailer attached?

Very comfortable at 20 MPH (Which just happens to be Oregon's "under power" limit, and the max the motors will push it). Not so comfortable over 25 MPH (coasting down hills). Partially because of the weight, partially because the trike can't be leaned into corners, partially because it is all light bicycle components, and partially because there is no protection for the rider. But I have never been comfortable above these speeds on any bicycle, for most of the same reasons. Unlike a serious commuter, I ride for exercise, being outside, and enjoying the scenery. So my being contented with a top speed of 20 MPH doesn't make 20 MPH an appropriate limit for everyone. Other possibilities for limitation might include number of wheels (for many trikes that might be appropriate, but there are many high speed trikes that are more stable), when pulling a trailer (Even lower speed limits are often applied to autos pulling trailers), or when multiple people are riding, such as on a tandem.

The more you think about this stuff, the more complicated it gets. Let's just ride, enjoy, and pedal when you see a cop!

 

[monster]

i would gladly pay insurance if i could legally ride 30mph. weight and power restrictions should be 1kw 60kg IMO.

if a push bike weighs 15kg ebikes should be around that ball park.

 

[Miles]

i would gladly pay insurance if i could legally ride 30mph. weight and power restrictions should be 1kw 60kg IMO.

if a push bike weighs 15kg ebikes should be around that ball park.

You can do that, if you want - you'll need to get SVA as a moped, though...

 

[maxwell]

"The more you think about this stuff, the more complicated it gets. Let's just ride, enjoy, and pedal when you see a cop!"

That is the route I am taking, along with my "250W at the wheel if I get pulled" switch.

The changes would kick start a commuter revolution, just think, easy secure parking with charging points, more trikes (yeah!!!), the parcharge (coined new word) would cater for them too. And the all too well known, and ignored by the powers that be, reductions in congestion and pollution etc. etc..

 

[Robbie Hatfield]

I wouldn't like laws that would attempt to limit the rider's own weight either. Physical laws already do so well with this. For instance, 280lb riders will ruin bicycle components much faster than 160 lb riders.

The law should probably be limited to only suggesting something like the southbeach diet or equivalent.

Robbie

 

[NickF23]

You can do that, if you want - you'll need to get SVA as a moped, though...

Miles,

Do you know what would be involved to classify an ebike as a moped? I presume a motorcycle helmet would be compulsory, as well as plates but what else?

I have a 30mph ebike and on a personal level the law doesn't bother me at all, as in my understanding its very unnlikely to be enforced. I think the law is important for any ebike that is sold in a shop, and without them, I don't think ebikes will ever be really popular, only so many people are into diy.

 

[Miles]

Hi Nick,

The thing you need to do, before you can do anything else, is to get Single Vehicle Approval. Read all about that here: http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/Motorcycle%20SVA%20Guide.pdf

For the lowliest category "Low Powered Moped" this is achievable, for the diy-builder, but doesn't give much of an advantage (1kW motor allowed, but same speed restriction as EAPC.....).

Getting SVA for the next category of moped (4kW and 28mph) looks a pretty daunting task - the number of hoops you have to jump through is mind-boggling (I have the inspection manual).

What we need to do is get the speed restriction raised a bit for Low Powered Mopeds.... Trouble is it's an EU directive....

 

[NickF23]

hmmm yes the low powered moped setup is pretty useless. What kind of hoops are there for the moped class?

Interestingly, it might be possible to have an ebike that is both a moped and also an eapc. Speed and power could be electronically lowered at the flick of a switch to allow you to ride in the bike lane. The only tricky part would be keepting the weight below 40KG and havng enough batteries to provide a good range at 28mph. I reckon it might well be possible with lithium phoshpate batteries and a light frame.

 

[Miles]

To give an example: the requirements listing for the mirror is over a page long.....

You might get away with a moped to EAPC limiter - not sure where you'd stand legally, though...

 

[dermot]

Crazy, royalty-obsessed, surveillance-state UK people:
No registration; no insurance; no license; no power limit (unenforceable anyway); no helmets for adults.

--Wild West U.S. Xyster

I agree that a power limit is difficult to enforce (and doesn't it say 'average' in there somewhere?, so 9-1/2 hours overnight not moving averaged with 30mins at 5KW = 250W average)

Working in a hospital, I've seen the results of not wearing a helmet - I think I would make helmets mandatory for e-bikes, due to the extra speed and hazard.

I've seen the result of two cyclists head down in the rain head-butting each other - the one with helmet got up just fine, the other had a large almost perfectly circular depression where the skull was stove in big time....

So I'd be happy with mandatory helmet, 1KW max sustained output and 30mph limit. That might actually get some support, since HM gov is getting quite serious about weaning everyone off petroleum.

Anone see this?: http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/article2199172.ece

from February, you'll have to pay £25-00 per day (over $50 per day currently) to drive an SUV or other large car in central London. Plus, of course, paying around $9-00 per gallon for the privilege!

If HM gov is serious about increasing use of bikes and e-bikes, a carrot in the form of more generous rules would be a welcome addition to the big tax stick.

 

[Miles]

[
So I'd be happy with mandatory helmet, 1KW max sustained output and 30mph limit. That might actually get some support, since HM gov is getting quite serious about weaning everyone off petroleum.

Absolutely no chance of that.... you don't even get 30mph with the current moped classification...

What's needed is a new class of vehicle - lightly regulated. It would no longer be an EAPC, though....

 

[safe]

Europe ought to follow America with the 750 watt limit. Then if Canada can follow suit and Australia, etc... then the whole world would be standardized on the same bike. That would make things easier to sell products across national boundries.

Would you have a problem with:

1. Pedals required.

2. 750 watt limit.

3. 20 mph on the flat. (as sold in the store)

Then people could buy the bike and if they want to regear it up to 30 mph then that's up to them... the main thing is that the 750 watt limit would make all the bikes the same when manufactured.

750 watts is plenty of power and that's "rated power" so you actually would get about 1000 watts at peak. It's "good enough" power for most things...

 

[Miles]

As the whole, apart from USA and Canada, is on 200 or 250 Watts the chances of that happening don't seem very likely..

Personally, I'd be quite happy with 750 Watts and 20 mph, retaining the bicycle status.

 

[safe]

As the whole, apart from USA and Canada, is on 200 or 250 Watts the chances of that happening don't seem very likely...

If you don't try to attain the desirable goal and instead go after a lessor one you have failed before you've even started. America's decision to go 750 watt while everyone else is stuck at 250 watt could be the catalyst to change that you guys need.

Just say things like:

"Well the Americans allow 750 watts, so why can't we "

 

[Miles]

Just say things like:

"Well the Americans allow 750 watts, so why can't we "
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It's not much of an argument.....