Charging 52v 25 Ah UPP in a warmed and closed box outdoors in winter

Mnaq

10 mW
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Apr 18, 2023
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Uppsala
I have been riding electric DIY l bikes for 14 years now and for the last 2.5 years went for BBSHD middrive and as of a week ago a UPP Polly 25 Ah with Samsung 5000 cells (if that is what they are). However, I have recently been more worried about battery fire (I live in a wooden house) and would like to charge it outdoors away from the house also in winter.
So I am thinking of using a cooling box with perhaps a small terrarium heater and a thermostat to keep it around 15-20C if it is cold outside (below optimal charging temperature).
But are there any problems keeping it enclosed for gasses or other reasons? Will the charging itself generate a lot of heat so that the box actually need some cooling (like a fan drawing in colder air) despite the outside air being below freezing? Any thoughts on this?
 
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Consider that the cells are at most risk of fire due to overcharging or overcurrent; that is to say, a battery made with high quality cells kept indoors at rest is at almost no risk of fire. Not zero risk, I'm not saying that, but certainly much lower risk.

Therefore, consider storing your battery indoors when it's not on your bike or in use. Indoors being room temp of 10-20C or so. Then, when you want to charge it, take it outside and charge it. The cells will be at room temperature from being stored inside, and will remain that way for an hour or two. They will remain that temp even longer due to the normal charging process, it's normal for them to warm up a little bit. How long does it take to charge your pack? If it takes less than 3 hours, then I'd say there's no need to rig up a heating element at all, the pack will retain its heat from the indoors long enough to take a full charge.

Anyway, this is the method that I use for my e-moped with a removable battery. During winter, I remove the pack after every ride and store it indoors. I bring it outside for an hour or two to charge when it needs it. Or, I charge it right after I'm finished with a ride, while it's still on the bike and the cells are still warm.

Does that help?
 
But are there any problems keeping it enclosed for gasses or other reasons?
Unless something is wrong with it, there should be nothing released from it. Hot gases are released in a fire, but at that point it doesn't really matter. ;)

Will the charging itself generate a lot of heat so that the box actually need some cooling (like a fan drawing in colder air) despite the outside air being below freezing? Any thoughts on this?
If it heats up that much during charging, then it's being charged beyond the real capabilities of the cells (they are too high a resistance, so a lot of charging current is being converted into waste heat). (Temperature affects the resistance, too).

If that happens I'd recommend using a lower-amp charger.

Some heat will always be generated as there is always some resistance in the cells, but it should be minimal with good cells in good condition. If you can feel heat coming off a pack when charging it at room temperature, it's either not a very good pack or it's being charged at too high a rate for it's actual capabilities, or both.

You can calculate the pack resistance with some guesstimates for interconnect resistance gathered from the various spotwelding threads and multiply/divide by the number of series and parallel connections (one on each end of each cell, plus whatever series and parallel interconnects there are), and if you can find out the actual cell model that was supposed to be used in your pack, you can look up it's datasheet for it's resistance, and calculate the total cell resistance based on the number of parallel and series cells.


Even the now-ancient (decade-and-a-half old) EIG cell packs I use don't have a noticeable temperature change during charge or discharge. The total pack resistance estimated by the Cycle Analyst is less than 50mohms, so a 12A charge rate at 57v max (is more like 50-52v while its at the 12A rate) makes 12A x 0.05ohms x 52v = 31.2watts, generated within a volume of around a foot x a foot x 3/4 of a foot. (don't recall the exact measurements). 12A is a bit more than 0.25C for these packs; IIRC 0.5C is the max rate recommended for them when new (and since they're very old that should be lowered to accomodate their changing properties).

this page
gives me a guesstimate of about 7F temperature change for 35lbs of mass if I use aluminum (a large part of the mass of the cells, AFAIK) for the material, assuming a constant 31w (it won't be, it will decline) over half an hour (the maximum time it typically will be near max current during a charge, dropping off after that so the temperature change rate is even lower). Since it's not insulated to keep heat in (or out) the pack won't heat up as much as that, as it will radiate and conduct away some of that heat. (I don't know how to calculate that and didn't find an easy calculator for it).

They're built into the SB Cruiser trike so in the "cold" part of winter for a couple of weeks I sometimes use an incandescent lamp under the trike to keep the seatbox and contents warmer than it would otherwise drop to just so they will perform better on my morning commute, because there isn't enough heat generated internally to keep them at a good riding temperature to minimize voltage sag under load.


Consider that the cells are at most risk of fire due to overcharging or overcurrent; that is to say, a battery made with high quality cells kept indoors at rest is at almost no risk of fire. Not zero risk, I'm not saying that, but certainly much lower risk.
It's a UPP pack, so there's probably not much chance of that. ;)

(or of high quality construction, or BMS)
 
Thank you for your input! I am not worried about storage, but the charging feels a bit risky in relation to the consequences considering I live in a hundred year old wooden house.
I might use my new bluetooth grill thermometer and try to measure the temperature inside the cooler during charging. I suspect though that at -+5 F and below I might need some extra heat, but especially I would need to keep the battery warm when the charging has finished during the night so that it is ready for use the next day. I might not be able to finish charging it before I go to bed some days, especially if I have to let it warm an hour or so before charging. It is a 3A charger only. I guess keeping the temperature around room temperature would keep moisture out from the box.
 
UPP Polly 25 Ah with Samsung 5000 cells (if that is what they are).
It is a 3A charger only.
At 3A, a more-or-less full charge of a 25Ah battery will take a minimum of 8.4 hours.

A true full charge will probably take a minimum of several hours longer than that, as most of these batteries are made of unmatched cells, so they require balancing on every charge cycle. (they're capacities and resistances and other properties are not all the same).
As it ages, it will take longer and longer to balance and finish charging, as the cells grow more and more different.


Regarding it's actual capacity, a (48v/52v) 24Ah pack made of say, 2.5Ah 18650 cells, should weigh (depending on cell type and model, and pack construction method) around 15-20lbs+, and have a general size (depnding on actual shape) of perhaps 10"x10"x3"+; volume total around 300 cubic inches. If it weighs a lot less or has a lot smaller volume, it is unlikely to actually have that capacity. (a different voltage pack will have more or less cell groups so it will weigh more or less and be larger or smaller, proportionally. a pack with larger capacity cells will have fewer cells in each group and be smaller, a pack with smaller capacity cells will have more and be larger).

Something to check when you are doing initial pack testing, so you can return it if it isn't what it claims to be.
 
Thanks for info! I am quite sure it contains the right amount of cells because it is bigger and heavier than my previous Hailong Max 21Ah. And it is heavy as hell. Not 100% convinced of the capacity yet since I think it drains surprisingly fast at full power although it recuperates a part of that in a couple of minutes. But on the other hand I do not know how they drain in relation to the real capacity and not the display percentage (850C I think) which is the only thing I can relate to. The button on the battery showed 100% when the displayed showed around 50 % at the end of the ride. I was going for a quality Em3v battery (or whatever it is called) but I was not inclined to pay 30% more in freight which pushed the total price too far.
 
You may want to look into one of these capacity tester. I just bought one, still getting familiar with it.
This is just one of many ytube videos on it
 
While UPP has a poor reputation, when they advertise Samsung or LG cells, that's what you get, I have the above ATorch tester for load testing, Never had any problems with UPP not delivering advertised capacity on a new pack. The ones with quality cells held capacity for years too,

It's probably something like a Samsung 50E. Not an especially high current cell, but you have a 13x5 so the 5P should satisfy the BBSHD.

Yes, it's always great to minimize risk. If I had a outside shed, I'd keep my batteries out there too, but you have to watch out for condensation. I killed a battery by storing it outside and condensation got to it.



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