Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

[rumme]

A lot of people make this mistake - take a cheap Wal-Mart MTB with rim brakes and put a 2KW motor on it.

It's not the rim brakes that are a problem; it's the Walmart brakes. Rim brakes worked fine for 120+ mph Honda racing motorcycles and 150 mph land speed record motorpaced bicycles. The rim is just a great big brake rotor after all.

But the point remains that bicycles will not handle or stop appropriately at energy levels ten times or more greater than their design parameters anticipated.

I doubt rim brakes would be a good choice for a bicycle that does 50-60 mph, especially if it is driven in the rain, wet conditions on the road or even very humid areas like florida.

Surely you are not claiming that rim brakes are just as effective and dependable in all conditions , on a 50 mph ebike, as hydraulic disc brakes are ?

 

[Hwy89]

Get a motorcycle. Get licensed. Get insured. Real ebikers don't need your type ruining their sport. I enjoy going under 20 MPH and being able to go anywhere a bicycle can go. Your type will eventually ruin it for everyone else.

 

[MadRhino]

Get a motorcycle. Get licensed. Get insured. Real ebikers don't need your type ruining their sport. I enjoy going under 20 MPH and being able to go anywhere a bicycle can go. Your type will eventually ruin it for everyone else.

There is a cure for your paranoïa. 60 Mph bikes are not riding with you, and have no effect on your « sport ».
Clean city commuting does need ebikes that are fast enough to ride the streets. The bike path network is good only for leisure and short distance commuting.

 

[LockH]

Hi "beginner01"... from Canada, eh? ONE "problem" with traveling at "fast" speeds? Aerodynamics. Where the energy needed to push through the atmosphere ("air") is MUCH "greater" at "higher" speeds. See "aerodynamics"? The "perfect shape" for any vehicle is shaped like a drop of falling rain water. And being a "21st-Century Urban Guy"... "55mph"... what??? Dunno where you are in "Silicone Valley, CA"? But I'm only/lately familiar with speeds sub-20-ish mph. AND, apart from the weigh of any cargo, the "lighter" the weight of passenger and vehicle the "better" in terms of the kinetic energy needed to accelerate any mass from stops and up hills, etc.

Anyway... for a "cheapest" bike ya might consider a "velomobile"-style bike/trike, w/a shell body papered with "thin film" solar cells to suck up "free energy" from any sunlight to be stored in batteries based on "modern" lithium-flavoured cells (highest energy-density per volume/weight).

Cheers
L

:wink:

 

[MadRhino]

@LockH
I would say: Suppository shape
Some resistances are stronger than wind

 

[rumme]

Get a motorcycle. Get licensed. Get insured. Real ebikers don't need your type ruining their sport. I enjoy going under 20 MPH and being able to go anywhere a bicycle can go. Your type will eventually ruin it for everyone else.

There is a cure for your paranoïa. 60 Mph bikes are not riding with you, and have no effect on your « sport ».
Clean city commuting does need ebikes that are fast enough to ride the streets. The bike path network is good only for leisure and short distance commuting.

You seem to miss the point .

Having a person ask for advice on how to build a 60 mph ebike , with the cheapest components possible to ride mainly on the roadways , and then having that same person admit he doesn't care about things like back brakes, is dangerous not only to the rider, but raises the risk factors of being hurt { or hurting someone else} considerably. Then factor in that this same person will probably not being riding this 60 mph ebike, legally .

The more and more people who build this type of ebike, and plan on riding it on roadways , in a illegal manner , only ensures the more chances of newsworthy injury or deaths, which inevitably leads to much stricter/ harsher ebike laws being written and enforced.

Surely you understand this ? ANYONE that says they want to build a 60 mph ebike, with the cheapest components possible , and then admits they don't care much about back brakes, should NOT be given advice on how to build such a risky contraption. Let this guy continue to break the laws with his gas powered bike.,...no need to give him info so he can transition his illegal activities into the ebike realms which reflects poorly on the rest of us who do not want law enforcement or the govt to start focusing on our hobby.

COMMON SENSE.

 

[LockH]

@LockH
I would say: Suppository shape
Some resistances are stronger than wind

HAHA... Mon Dieu! (There's maybe a reason suppositories are shaped that way? :wink:

 

[markz]

Thats the first upgrade on any BSO are the brakes, then later on you upgrade everything else prior to it failing, or when it fails.

 

[Chalo]

A lot of people make this mistake - take a cheap Wal-Mart MTB with rim brakes and put a 2KW motor on it.

It's not the rim brakes that are a problem; it's the Walmart brakes. Rim brakes worked fine for 120+ mph Honda racing motorcycles and 150 mph land speed record motorpaced bicycles. The rim is just a great big brake rotor after all.

I doubt rim brakes would be a good choice for a bicycle that does 50-60 mph, especially if it is driven in the rain, wet conditions on the road or even very humid areas like florida.

Surely you are not claiming that rim brakes are just as effective and dependable in all conditions , on a 50 mph ebike, as hydraulic disc brakes are ?

I have made a rim brake that simply stomps any bicycle disc I've come across. It has better lever feel than most of them, too. It can be done. Ordinary V-brakes with careful setup and good pads will also outperform cable discs and most commonly used hydraulic discs. The feel isn't the same, but their performance can be better.

Disc rotors get wet in the rain and it affects their performance. Rims get wet in the rain and it affects their performance. Both kinds of brakes squeeze off the water in a couple of rotations and get back to business. However, one drop of oil can permanently incapacitate a set of disc brake pads, while rim brakes are tolerant of small amounts of such contaminants.

There are some good reasons to use discs instead of rim brakes-- compatibility with very fat tires, for instance-- but better maximum braking power from discs isn't one of them.

 

[MadRhino]

It is not so important to have good brakes on the rear. Yet with a hub motor that puts extra penalty on the rim, disc brake saves a lot of troubles, off road especially. I like to have the best brakes fr and rr, but the rear pads are lasting many front.

 

[markz]

Pink/Salmon Kool Stop pads all the way!

 

[spinningmagnets]

At 55-MPH, using bicycle components will lead to either death, or being paralysed with enormous debt from medical bills.

If was doing this, I'd use a QS 205 V3 rear hubmotor with aero fairing on the front at 20S battery voltage, or...with no aero fairings, I'd have to bump it up to a QS 273 with 50% more amps...

All it takes is money, and a willingness to risk your entire future...

 

[Tony01]

rumme, read the title of the thread. CHEAPEST E-COMPONENTS. Not bike hardware. I already have a bike that does 60mph and is PROVEN over thousands of miles. I just want it to be electric.

Since you presume to have so much common sense, consider these points:

1. A person who is going to spend $1500 or more on ebike electric components is NOT going to buy a base bike for $100 at walmart. People who buy walmart bikes for motorizing are those that buy the 66cc 2-stroke junk kits on ebay. THOSE guys have the related problems, and most of them survive just fine: with no brakes except the stock coaster that blows up in 200 miles. These kinds of bikes cost $300 to build, and they are everywhere. They typically top out at 30mph. Are they safe? hell no!

2. In my area there isn't a good bike infrastructure. Riding in the bike lane is very dangerous when cars are passing 1ft away at 40+mph, and with people pulling out of driveways without looking left or right first. I like to ride the same speed as cars, as far from the right lane as possible. As MadRhino said, bike paths are good for nothing other than pleasure rides.

3. Long before I built my first motorized bike, I took the motorcycle safety course and got my M1 license. I have insurance and ZERO accidents in 3 years of riding on "unsafe" bike tires and about half a year of no rear brake, till I got tired of driving like a scared grandma. It is all about driving defensively. Law enforcement in my town is well aware of who I am, and I've never had an issue.

And yet, the state of California has decided to INCREASE the limits for motorized bikes. Gas bikes are now allowed 4hp from 2hp (2016), ebike laws now have a "Class 3" section that allows ebikes to go 28mph from 20mph. So if anything, the laws for motorized bikes are OPENING UP.

Looks like my original reply was a little offensive. Sorry.


Thanks to all who have replied, it looks like I have a few options. Dan, that is a good point about building a slower bike and I'm definitely considering it. I guess I could ride with a lighter helmet as well, as carrying the fullface packed with MC gloves and wearing a heavy protective jacket is kind of a drag sometimes. But, doing the mid drive conversion on my gasser would be really cool too. I just really want to be stealthy. I was on amtrak a few months ago and the bicycles were just hanging by the front wheel in the cargo car, which was mostly empty. It was probably illegal to go in there but I did anyway to sort of stretch my legs and smell the diesel. I'll do some more research on that.

 

[rumme]

rumme, read the title of the thread. CHEAPEST E-COMPONENTS. Not bike hardware. You've voiced your opinion, now stop spreading lies about me. I already have a bike that does 60mph and is PROVEN over thousands of miles. I just want it to be electric.

Since you presume to have so much common sense, consider these points:

1. A person who is going to spend $1500 or more on ebike electric components is NOT going to buy a base bike for $100 at walmart. People who buy walmart bikes for motorizing are those that buy the 66cc 2-stroke junk kits on ebay. THOSE guys have the related problems, and most of them survive just fine: with no brakes except the stock coaster that blows up in 200 miles. These kinds of bikes cost $300 to build, and they are everywhere. They typically top out at 30mph. Are they safe? hell no!

2. In my area there isn't a good bike infrastructure. Riding in the bike lane is very dangerous when cars are passing 1ft away at 40+mph, and with people pulling out of driveways without looking left or right first. I like to ride the same speed as cars, as far from the right lane as possible. As MadRhino said, bike paths are good for nothing other than pleasure rides.

3. Long before I built my first motorized bike, I took the motorcycle safety course and got my M1 license. I have insurance and ZERO accidents in 3 years of riding on "unsafe" bike tires and about half a year of no rear brake, till I got tired of driving like a scared grandma. It is all about driving defensively. Law enforcement in my town is well aware of who I am, and I've never had an issue.

And yet, the state of California has decided to INCREASE the limits for motorized bikes. Gas bikes are now allowed 4hp from 2hp (2016), ebike laws now have a "Class 3" section that allows ebikes to go 28mph from 20mph. So if anything, the laws for motorized bikes are OPENING UP.

Looks like my original reply was a little offensive. Sorry.


Thanks to all who have replied, it looks like I have a few options. Dan, that is a good point about building a slower bike and I'm definitely considering it. I guess I could ride with a lighter helmet as well, as carrying the fullface packed with MC gloves and wearing a heavy protective jacket is kind of a drag sometimes. But, doing the mid drive conversion on my gasser would be really cool too. I just really want to be stealthy. I was on amtrak a few months ago and the bicycles were just hanging by the front wheel in the cargo car, which was mostly empty. It was probably illegal to go in there but I did anyway to sort of stretch my legs and smell the diesel. I'll do some more research on that.

I wish ya luck ! I am not the only person on this thread or forum, that considers your ebike project and some of the things you have said to be somewhat dangerous and reckless.

Its very simple, You want a vehicle that can do 60 mph to ride on the roadways and many of us feel a electric powerplant on a bicycle that does that , is not the best option especially since it seems like you want this ebike to be a major source of your commutting. If you still decide to do this, you better consider getting insurance, tags and making sure your ebike has proper blinkers, lights, etc. Since your original thread made a insinuation that you want to do this project as cheaply as possible, I doubt you were planning to do these things Ive mentioned. Either way , good luck...and no matter how big of a asshole you think I am, Id really suggest you place more importance on good back brakes on a 60 mph vehicle.

 

[999zip999]

A 60 mph is 3,000 to 6,000 usd and up or start at the top of a steep hill. Like Pikes Peak.
Some sla battery for ballast and wait to get the speed up going downhill. Thinking about this this could be cheaper than I thought only need a 36v 250 watt motor if you have enough lead. You guys need to think a little more creative and out of the box.

 

[Tony01]

Quite the warm welcome.

It's very simple rumme, nobody asked you to hijack my thread, and nobody asked for your opinion about the safety of this. You proved yourself to be what I think of you all on your own.

My bike already has lights, license plate, and insurance. No blinkers, use hand signals. Apparently you don't have a big enough imagination to comprehend what I've been saying since the first post in this thread. That the bike is done, I just want to make it electric.

 

[markz]

That the bike is done, I just want to make it electric.

So are you going to be using MXUS or QS motor?

 

[MadRhino]

At 55-MPH, using bicycle components will lead to either death, or being paralysed with enormous debt from medical bills.

If was doing this, I'd use a QS 205 V3 rear hubmotor with aero fairing on the front at 20S battery voltage, or...with no aero fairings, I'd have to bump it up to a QS 273 with 50% more amps...

All it takes is money, and a willingness to risk your entire future...

Good to know I should be dead by now, after riding that kind of performance using bicycle components exclusively for the last 8 years. Then, many who are riding cheap motorcycles should be dead too, because cheap motorcycle components are far behind high end bicycle components.

Riding is a risk. Riding a bike that is not built and tuned properly is a bigger risk. Riding a slow bike in fast traffic, is plain stupid.

 

[dogman dan]

Well,, I should be dead a long time ago too.

My survival did teach me about how to crash well, steer good enough ( like drifting sideways) to avoid a crash, and wear helmets and armor for higher speeds. One motorcycle I rode had nothing but a rear brake, and not a very good one. Did nearly die on it many times.

My main problem here on this thread is simply that while 40 mph electric bikes can be cheap, one that goes for very long range at 40 mph or more is anything but cheap. $5,000 cost is not crazy talk.

To race at 40-50 mph, I carried 100v 15 amp hours. 1500 watt hours. Not really that big, but still a solid 30 pounds of battery. It was just enough for 11 race laps, on a one mile track. About 120 watt hours per mile. Handing got very bad packing 30 pounds of battery, and I did crash out on that race. ( the previous race I almost won, with 20 pound battery, but only 40 mph)

But at 30-35 mph cruise speeds, your draw drops to the 60 wh per mile ballpark, and range is enough to get someplace and back again. And bikes handle 30 mph no sweat.

Again, build it for 55, I do not object to that. then ride it slow enough to get home, depending on the ride. Otherwise, you WILL NOT be buying anything like an affordable battery.

Sounds like you can sneak the e bike on the Amtrack if they don't notice its got a motor. ( hide a hub motor with panniers like my cruiser) Carry on your battery. You can do 30 mph with a very small, easy to hide rear hub motor. You might find that when you ride for the scenery, 15 mph is the best speed to ride. Now a 30 pound battery lasts 60-80 miles, instead of 20-30.

And again,, keep that gasser as is.. start over on the e bike.. That gasser is too good to change, unless its to make it faster.

 

[LockH]

rumme, read the title of the thread. CHEAPEST E-COMPONENTS. Not bike hardware. I already have a bike that does 60mph and is PROVEN over thousands of miles. I just want it to be electric.

Hi again... Just to expound... "CHEAPEST E-COMPONENTS"? Might include bits which reduce energy needs as lowest kWh/mile? Which is why I mentioned aerodynamic shape as an "e-component", especially at "higher" speeds aka "55mph", and also if/when "battling strong head winds". :wink: Recall too, in electric terms yer dealing with a "gas tank"/battery that stores about the equivalent of a thimble full of gasoline. (OK. Maybe half of one cup... ) One other "e-component" might be that ALL "bits" need to be strong (a "given") and also as light a weight as possible?

However, putting "strong" and "light" and "cheap" in the same sentence may be... "difficult".

Cheers

 

[billvon]

It's not the rim brakes that are a problem; it's the Walmart brakes. Rim brakes worked fine for 120+ mph Honda racing motorcycles and 150 mph land speed record motorpaced bicycles. The rim is just a great big brake rotor after all.

Brake rotors can reach 500F during hard braking. For a brake rotor that's not too much of an issue. (Might be an issue for hydraulic fluid based on caliper design.) But anything close to those temps is a VERY big deal for tires. Before disc brakes, tandems often came with hub-mounted drum brakes (sometimes called drag brakes) for this reason; during descents, the brake energy was enough to soften (and pop) rear tires when applied to the rim.

If you design for it, it can work. But again, "what's the cheapest X I can use?" does not get you there.

 

[markz]

Imagine doing 55mph with plastic brake levers and you brake the lever. OUCH!

 

[Chalo]

Brake rotors can reach 500F during hard braking. For a brake rotor that's not too much of an issue. (Might be an issue for hydraulic fluid based on caliper design.) But anything close to those temps is a VERY big deal for tires.

Good thing that rims weigh several times as much as brake rotors, are made of a material with three times the specific heat capacity, and have a much larger surface area through which to discharge heat to the air.

Really, until you're using motorcycle discs, there's no real advantage.

 

[dogman dan]

Which is why I keep harping ride it slower than 55 most of the time. He will have to anyway, unless his rides are quite short.

This is also a good reason to include regen braking on a higher speed e bike, to help avoid disc brake fade. Two good mechanical bike disks is pretty adequate though, if you keep it under 40 mph.

But safety does not end with just good brakes. you'll still have totally inadequate tire traction for 55mph, so when you hit brakes really hard at 55, you'll just be sliding on a really tiny contact patch, on a thin tire. So brake hard enough to get fade, you might just get a laydown anyway. Shit that happens on motorcycles too. I laid down that scooter at 50 mph last year. All my fault, but once I blew it, the excellent brakes could not save me. I overshot the pavement, and laid it down in the gravel ditch.

 

[Buk___]

Which is why I keep harping ride it slower than 55 most of the time.

As the machine is already capable of, and has been regularly used at 55mph with its current gas motor; it will surely be okay to do that same speed once the ICE is replaced by a electric motor.