QuestionMan
100 W
- Joined
- May 10, 2013
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- 266
I would like to keep this post to factual posts and not about the morality of committing a crime of riding in prohibited areas.
citizen arrest /park police force allowed for stoping ebike?
- Thread starter QuestionMan
- Start date
-dg
1 kW
Dude, if you haven't watched enough traffic stop/occupy protest videos to realize that the cops can do anything they want, you need to spend more time indoors on the computer.
Nehmo
10 kW
Let me warn you: answers on legal questions are often not clear-cut. Much of law is opinion, and even experienced practitioners of law often disagree. The answers are even worse when they come from people who know nothing.QuestionMan said:
Citizen's Arrest In NY
James Daily does a good job of explaining it pertaining to NY
I'll answer one part. No, the arresting party cannot use deadly force (causing a bike wreck would be ruled deadly) to apprehend or prevent the flee of the offender.
Maybe you could provide some details. Is there some Park Police force trying to arrest you?
Nehmo said:
Uhh, yeah... sure...
[youtube]gUV9h24PXlM[/youtube]
[youtube]oUkiyBVytRQ[/youtube]
I vote for the "Police can do anything they want" theory. However, police can be sued and the city (I.e., the city's taxpayers) picks up the tab. Isn't that convenient? The same group that tickets the local citizenry, also ends up increasing their taxes thru police lawsuits. They sound like they have everyone's interests at heart, don't they?
http://www.dailydemocrat.com/ci_22339407/judge-oks-1m-settlement-uc-davis-pepper-spray
dogman dan
1 PW
Even if not allowed to, any individual cop may choose to use force on you. If you resist, then you are telling them to escalate the force used. By that I don't mean to say, let a cop do anything at all to you. But you need to be an instant judge of each cop in each encounter. Resisting the wrong cop could be a bad decision.
One thing I have seen before on various cop shows. Once they yell at you to stop, or whatever, if you flee, that just pisses them off. So if you just ride off when you see them, that's one thing. But when they try to stop you and you flee, they get pissed. If you do this several times and keep getting away, they come to know you by sight and hate you. Now you have a cop that wants you ass. This is not good. They definitely add resisting arrest to your list of charges when they catch you if you ran.
As for the Citizens arrest, surely an assault to apprehend a person committing a misdemeanor is not justified. Defend yourself from someone assaulting you, and you get into the typical he said you said pissing match once you get to talking to the cops or judges. You can be entirely in the right and still get screwed because the other guy is lying and they believe him.
You could go pro your rides, and get the assault on film. Also, you end up documenting your minor crime.
My solution is pretty obvious. I'd stop riding in the park when many other people or cops would be there. Not what you want to do I'm sure. You don't' have thousands of square miles of open land around your house like I do.
One thing I have seen before on various cop shows. Once they yell at you to stop, or whatever, if you flee, that just pisses them off. So if you just ride off when you see them, that's one thing. But when they try to stop you and you flee, they get pissed. If you do this several times and keep getting away, they come to know you by sight and hate you. Now you have a cop that wants you ass. This is not good. They definitely add resisting arrest to your list of charges when they catch you if you ran.
As for the Citizens arrest, surely an assault to apprehend a person committing a misdemeanor is not justified. Defend yourself from someone assaulting you, and you get into the typical he said you said pissing match once you get to talking to the cops or judges. You can be entirely in the right and still get screwed because the other guy is lying and they believe him.
You could go pro your rides, and get the assault on film. Also, you end up documenting your minor crime.
My solution is pretty obvious. I'd stop riding in the park when many other people or cops would be there. Not what you want to do I'm sure. You don't' have thousands of square miles of open land around your house like I do.
Drunkskunk
100 GW
If you are riding at 35mph through a park near people, in Texas the police would be justified in using any force they feel nessessary to stop you and prevent you injuring someone. In Texas, there wouldn't be a citizens arrest, a few angry mothers and fathers would later report to the police that you accidentaly ran into some sporting equipment while riding in an unsafe manner, as they wipe your blood off their baseball bats and hocky sticks.
If you're riding an ebike at 35mph illegaly through a park where you can be seen, then you are an idiot giving all ebikers a bad name. You may be opperating the bike in a safe manor, but some overprotective mother sees you flying by 20 yards away from her 3 year old kid, and she'll be screaming at City Hall to ban all ebikes forever.
If you're riding an ebike at 35mph illegaly through a park where you can be seen, then you are an idiot giving all ebikers a bad name. You may be opperating the bike in a safe manor, but some overprotective mother sees you flying by 20 yards away from her 3 year old kid, and she'll be screaming at City Hall to ban all ebikes forever.
Rassy
1 MW
Well stated DS. I volunteer with a heritage society and we maintain and host a museum and historical house that are both located within Oregon state parks. We work in partnership with the park rangers and the rules set up for the properties are for both safety and maintenance. It is surprising how many people don't care or appreciate the work involved in maintaining public spaces.
I have seen videos on this forum where "respected" members cut donuts with their e-bikes on nicely manicured park grass, etc. And of course the young guys doing stunts on their toy bikes, scraping along hand rails and decorative walls, doesn't help the publics image of bikes in general.
I enjoy riding my e-trike on multipurpose trails and don't want the privilege to be removed.
I have seen videos on this forum where "respected" members cut donuts with their e-bikes on nicely manicured park grass, etc. And of course the young guys doing stunts on their toy bikes, scraping along hand rails and decorative walls, doesn't help the publics image of bikes in general.
I enjoy riding my e-trike on multipurpose trails and don't want the privilege to be removed.
Lessss
1 MW
To educate yourselves on how cops REALLY behave
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/new/
http://www.reddit.com/r/forfeiture
http://www.reddit.com/r/puppycide
http://www.reddit.com/r/AmIFreeToGo
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/new/
http://www.reddit.com/r/forfeiture
http://www.reddit.com/r/puppycide
http://www.reddit.com/r/AmIFreeToGo
What I wonder about is if you keep your distance from most people, how can anybody ever catch you on an ebike?
The first time I started using my ebike I said these things should be illegal because of what they are capable of doing.
The first time I started using my ebike I said these things should be illegal because of what they are capable of doing.
Rassy
1 MW
Well Ed, this is another thing that will doom e-bikes in many localities. You are apparently talking about something that would not qualify as an e-bike (electric assist bicycle) in most states of the U.S.A. or many other countries. IMHO, if one wants a moped/scooter or motorcycle to use on public roads they should buy or build an electric or gas powered one and follow the laws that govern it in their locality. Don't spoil our privilege of using e-bikes the same as bikes in most situations.
friendly1uk
1 MW
In the UK it would be trespass, which is not a criminal matter. It is a civil matter, meaning the council would have to order a private hearing. Which they couldn't without knowing who you are. Even then, there is no offense of trespass unless some harm was actually done. Generally a criminal damage charge. That is how Mr ranger smith sir could get involved.
We don't have park rangers, but we did get yogi bear.
We do have trainee police that could perhaps call it a breach of the peace. They deal with littering and high viability foot work. As trainee's they are allowed to get things wrong.
We don't have park rangers, but we did get yogi bear.
We do have trainee police that could perhaps call it a breach of the peace. They deal with littering and high viability foot work. As trainee's they are allowed to get things wrong.
Also, PoliceMisconduct.net: The Cato Institute's National Police Misconduct Reporting ProjectLessss said:
http://www.policemisconduct.net/
arkmundi
10 MW
Seems like a hypothetical question, as well as so many hypothetical answers, so its all just an exercise in guessing. If you have a reasonable concern, then go ask the policemen directly. I have in fact done that, approaching a parked policeman, and asking them about this & that. Mostly in the context of OccupyBoston, as there were a lot of uniformed officers standing around to "keep the peace." If they've been instructed not to engage, they won't. But many were friendly and willing to respond.
Laws are on the books by legislative process, so represent a process that is inclusive of the voting citizen, and more likely than not to be the will of the majority. If there are laws about bikes in the park, there's a reason they're there. Can you not find elsewhere to ride? Why the provocation?
If a policeman wants to enforce, they can use "reasonable force." Excessive force would be frowned upon by all. Excessive force resulting in injury or death would lead to suspension and internal review. Most local policemen, most of the time, are reasonable. They have to live in the community they serve.
If you ride in a way that puts another person at risk, on diminshes their equal right to peaceable enjoyment of the commons, they have a right and may feel a duty, to stop you. And you'd probably deserve it. Its all common sense.
At one point in time I took action in my favorate park, almost in my backyard. Dog owners must pick up any do-do and not leave it on the ground. But many do not, meaning its there to be stepped on. I was quite frustrated by the growing number of these shit piles in my park. So when I saw a dog owner walk away from one, I went over with a napkin, picked up and proceeded to try to hand it to the owner. Very unfriendly dude, unwilling to acknowledge they just broke the law, never mind good common sense. I confess I lost it and just simply threw it at them. Some bystanders saved my ass by intervening before it came to blows. So I'm on the side of following good laws for the commons and our peaceable enjoyment of it.
If you disagree with the law, then work with your legislature to change it.
Laws are on the books by legislative process, so represent a process that is inclusive of the voting citizen, and more likely than not to be the will of the majority. If there are laws about bikes in the park, there's a reason they're there. Can you not find elsewhere to ride? Why the provocation?
If a policeman wants to enforce, they can use "reasonable force." Excessive force would be frowned upon by all. Excessive force resulting in injury or death would lead to suspension and internal review. Most local policemen, most of the time, are reasonable. They have to live in the community they serve.
If you ride in a way that puts another person at risk, on diminshes their equal right to peaceable enjoyment of the commons, they have a right and may feel a duty, to stop you. And you'd probably deserve it. Its all common sense.
At one point in time I took action in my favorate park, almost in my backyard. Dog owners must pick up any do-do and not leave it on the ground. But many do not, meaning its there to be stepped on. I was quite frustrated by the growing number of these shit piles in my park. So when I saw a dog owner walk away from one, I went over with a napkin, picked up and proceeded to try to hand it to the owner. Very unfriendly dude, unwilling to acknowledge they just broke the law, never mind good common sense. I confess I lost it and just simply threw it at them. Some bystanders saved my ass by intervening before it came to blows. So I'm on the side of following good laws for the commons and our peaceable enjoyment of it.
If you disagree with the law, then work with your legislature to change it.
Nehmo
10 kW
You misunderstand how to participate in a thread, arkmundi. If you make a joke, identify it as such. Otherwise people will think you are serious. That is pretty funny, though.arkmundi said:
Nehmo
10 kW
Government establishment people, like pigs (my apologies to real pigs), who don't believe in the concept of limited government, like to say anything people do is a "privilege" ("A drivers license is a privilege; not a right", a cop might say as he or she justifies locking up someone and stealing their car, for example.) But there is no legal basis for this semantic diminishing of the people's rights. Yes, being on the road is a necessity and a right. You can call it a non-enumerated right belonging to the people if you want a US constitutional basis*, but this right is more fundamental than that. I would say natural law allows freedom of movement. Thus, the road is ours without the consent of the government.Rassy said:
A right is something you have inherently.
A privilege is something only the government can bestow upon you.
*There is no need to resort to Privileges and Immunities Clause in which freedom of movement is implied and supported by subsequent court rulings.
Chalo
100 TW
Nehmo said:
Waking down the road, or riding down the road on a bicycle, is a right except where otherwise posted (e.g. on the freeway).
Operating a dangerous machine on public roads is a privilege. That's why it's only allowed to license holders. If you have to get a license for something, it is by definition a privilege.
Personally, I think less than 25% of motorists are worthy of the privilege of operating a hazardous machine in public for the sole purpose of compensating for their laziness and/or poor planning.
Rassy
1 MW
Nehmo wrote:
This is the only part of your post that makes sense, and you are right. The right we have is to apply for a driver's license, but you don't have the right to get a driver's license unless you can show proficiency at some pre determined level set by the state. Even though you might maintain your proficiency the privilege to drive can still be lost if you choose to flaunt the rules.
This is why I usually skip this type of thread. Each of us has our bias and opinion which has nothing to contribute to the forum. I.e., it is a no win situation to argue with someone whose mind is closed.
For instance, some of my favorite friends, relatives, and even members of this forum hold political beliefs directly opposed to mine, but that doesn't make their contribution to electric bicycle issues any less important.
This is the only part of your post that makes sense, and you are right. The right we have is to apply for a driver's license, but you don't have the right to get a driver's license unless you can show proficiency at some pre determined level set by the state. Even though you might maintain your proficiency the privilege to drive can still be lost if you choose to flaunt the rules.
This is why I usually skip this type of thread. Each of us has our bias and opinion which has nothing to contribute to the forum. I.e., it is a no win situation to argue with someone whose mind is closed.
For instance, some of my favorite friends, relatives, and even members of this forum hold political beliefs directly opposed to mine, but that doesn't make their contribution to electric bicycle issues any less important.
-dg
1 kW
Nehmo said:
Oh dear. A libertarian who does not believe in property rights? Or were you speaking of your own personal road? In which case, I don't think anyone has said you need a license so your point is moot.
Honestly, if people are giving you crap for a ebike, just buy a real dirt bike or a quad and really piss people off.
These guys are in the Bronx.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6dZ6v5v7N4&feature=related
I have people bitching and moaning at me sometimes. If they keep it up I'll buy a real loud dirt bike and really piss them off. There is really no way you are going to get stopped on a dirt bike. However, I heard a cop in NYC in an unmarked car who will pull right in front of them when they least expect, said he catches a lot of them like that, it so you have to always have your guard up for that.
People need to learn to mind their business. I had one guy pull up to me in a 3 ton truck and ask me something like "what are you going to do when you kill a kid". I should have told him who is more likely to kill a kid you in a 3 ton truck driving 50+ MPH or me in a ebike which weighs less than a 100lbs. Even if I hit a kid full speed which would be crazy since I don't drive fast if there are kids around and I could come to a stop very quickly.
BTW, can an ebike do a sustained wheelie like this in the video? What kind of motor and setup would you need to do that?
These guys are in the Bronx.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6dZ6v5v7N4&feature=related
I have people bitching and moaning at me sometimes. If they keep it up I'll buy a real loud dirt bike and really piss them off. There is really no way you are going to get stopped on a dirt bike. However, I heard a cop in NYC in an unmarked car who will pull right in front of them when they least expect, said he catches a lot of them like that, it so you have to always have your guard up for that.
People need to learn to mind their business. I had one guy pull up to me in a 3 ton truck and ask me something like "what are you going to do when you kill a kid". I should have told him who is more likely to kill a kid you in a 3 ton truck driving 50+ MPH or me in a ebike which weighs less than a 100lbs. Even if I hit a kid full speed which would be crazy since I don't drive fast if there are kids around and I could come to a stop very quickly.
BTW, can an ebike do a sustained wheelie like this in the video? What kind of motor and setup would you need to do that?
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