COLOSSUSWRC-7KW -75KV-NSK

[Thud]

Paralell all the way. I double the controllers & trust that the sum of the 2 will be more than required for durability.

As for parrallel motor set up with a single controller. it is simple in theroy. you need to mechanicly "lock" the outrunners spinning parts together so they keep in perfect time with one another. Then have sensors in one of them & a controller that will pump the current they'l accept.

To series a 3 phase motor,you would need to have all the starts & ends come out of one motor(call it the slave motor) & series the phases into the 2nd motor with the delta or wye termination in that one. (sensors could be in either)

You would need to identify each phase of the motors & keep all the wiring straight. Fechter recomended setting the motor positions by energising a single phase & letting it position the rotors then tightening down whatever your using to keep the sync (belts/chains)
sounds simple eh? LOL!
(hmnn, got me thinking now. Parrallel or series, a single timing adjuster would be in play on that set up..less space taken on the bike, lighter & gives me more spare parts to change out after i put out the fire. :wink: )
Thanks, I think i just found justification for 24fet controller! (this hobby is killing my check book!)

 

[Jay64]

If you have a longer shaft that they both are connected to, would that count as mechanically locking the motors together?

 

[Thud]

putting both onto a single shaft? (like that go kart video?)
sure, thats one way.

 

[Jay64]

Yeah, That is what I was thinking of. I think that would be easier than trying to mechanically couple two shafts together. Unless I'm missing an easier way.

 

[Arlo1]

Paralell all the way. I double the controllers & trust that the sum of the 2 will be more than required for durability.

As for parrallel motor set up with a single controller. it is simple in theroy. you need to mechanicly "lock" the outrunners spinning parts together so they keep in perfect time with one another. Then have sensors in one of them & a controller that will pump the current they'l accept.

To series a 3 phase motor,you would need to have all the starts & ends come out of one motor(call it the slave motor) & series the phases into the 2nd motor with the delta or wye termination in that one. (sensors could be in either)

You would need to identify each phase of the motors & keep all the wiring straight. Fechter recomended setting the motor positions by energising a single phase & letting it position the rotors then tightening down whatever your using to keep the sync (belts/chains)
sounds simple eh? LOL!
(hmnn, got me thinking now. Parrallel or series, a single timing adjuster would be in play on that set up..less space taken on the bike, lighter & gives me more spare parts to change out after i put out the fire. :wink: )
Thanks, I think i just found justification for 24fet controller! (this hobby is killing my check book!)

If you run 2 motors in series from one controller its 4x as easy for the controller as compared to one motor of the same ratings. But if you run 2 motors in parallel with one controller its 4 times harder on the controller. The inductance of them will be added together for series or devided by 2 (if motors are the same) I mesures a stock 7kw 75kv collosssus and found it to be ~48uH (I will mesure again tonight) If you have around 25uH (which you would have with 2 parallel) you will have what I had with big colossus last time I tried riding it and blew my 24fet controller with a system that can only lay 8.5 hp down! You are better with 2 seprate 80-100 or small colossus motors and 2 12 fet controllers one for each motor then one 24 fet to run 2 small colossus motors in parallel! Or even better 2 24fets or 2 18fets and two seprat motors!
That kart would be a fricking rocket with that set up and they could get rid of one motor!

 

[Jay64]

Paralell all the way. I double the controllers & trust that the sum of the 2 will be more than required for durability.

As for parrallel motor set up with a single controller. it is simple in theroy. you need to mechanicly "lock" the outrunners spinning parts together so they keep in perfect time with one another. Then have sensors in one of them & a controller that will pump the current they'l accept.

To series a 3 phase motor,you would need to have all the starts & ends come out of one motor(call it the slave motor) & series the phases into the 2nd motor with the delta or wye termination in that one. (sensors could be in either)

You would need to identify each phase of the motors & keep all the wiring straight. Fechter recomended setting the motor positions by energising a single phase & letting it position the rotors then tightening down whatever your using to keep the sync (belts/chains)
sounds simple eh? LOL!
(hmnn, got me thinking now. Parrallel or series, a single timing adjuster would be in play on that set up..less space taken on the bike, lighter & gives me more spare parts to change out after i put out the fire. :wink: )
Thanks, I think i just found justification for 24fet controller! (this hobby is killing my check book!)

If you run 2 motors in series from one controller its 4x as easy for the controller as compared to one motor of the same ratings. But if you run 2 motors in parallel with one controller its 4 times harder on the controller. The inductance of them will be added together for series or devided by 2 (if motors are the same) I mesures a stock 7kw 75kv collosssus and found it to be ~48uH (I will mesure again tonight) If you have around 25uH (which you would have with 2 parallel) you will have what I had with big colossus last time I tried riding it and blew my 24fet controller with a system that can only lay 8.5 hp down! You are better with 2 seprate 80-100 or small colossus motors and 2 12 fet controllers one for each motor then one 24 fet to run 2 small colossus motors in parallel! Or even better 2 24fets or 2 18fets and two seprat motors!
That kart would be a fricking rocket with that set up and they could get rid of one motor!

Still trying to get my head back in the game here so bear with me. If I run 2 motors in series, then I would need to run double the volts so each motor still sees the same volts, and if I ran two motors in parallel, I would need to run double the amps so that both motors see the same amps, right? If I run two motors with a 11 hp total, than I would only be having to put 4.1kw to each motor, correct? If I did that, would the 1 24 fet controller work? Or what about if I did a 36 fet controller?

 

[Thud]

No help here Jay,
I am trying to figure if my original thoughts actually work for 3-phase motors....It seems like a delta termination would be wrong in my senario....but maybe I am overthinking it.

Definatly would need to push the amperage as the resistance would be doubled in a series hook up.

Brushless motors are just so much easyer when it comes to this LOL!

 

[Arlo1]

I do not think one 24fet controller is good for 2 motors!

 

[Jay64]

Ok, good to know.

 

[Jay64]

Ok, just got my Lyen 24 fet controller. Now I gotta work on getting my hall sensors installed. I think I'm gonna try to do an internal mounting.

 

[etard]

Jay,
I know you have been out for a few months so I was wondering if you have scene Burtie's timing adjustment gadget? It has all sorts of parameters to play around with the timing of the motor and electrical adjustment of hall sensors.

Are you still coming to the Grange race? If you need anything ( place to stay, ride, beer, hookers) let me know. :wink:

 

[Jay64]

Actually, I am right in the middle of reading through hundreds of posts on several different threads trying to get up to speed on the hall mounting. I am still in 2010 at the moment! :lol: :lol: The problem is that there are a bunch of links to other threads that I end up going and reading before I finish the thread I am currently in. I have seen a couple of different external setups, and mentions of people maybe selling some pre-made or as kits. I am reading through a few of Bertie's threads. Do you know if he is selling them? I'm really behind the 8 ball on all this stuff. I'm having to research terms just so I can figure out what I'm reading. :lol: I do have a bunch of halls in hand at the moment, but at this point, I'd be willing to buy a pre-made external hall sensor holder/timing adjustment type device so I can get to the race. Running out of time here. I do plan on still coming out to the race at Grange. I have a bunch of parts on order for the bike itself, stuff just started arriving yesterday. I really want to try to use one of these baby colossus motors for that build, but if I can't get the hall sensors wired in correctly in time, I might have to switch to a brushed motor at the last minute.

I'm driving out to Cali from Florida in my race transport/van so I have a ride. I know a bunch of people in LA (used to live there for 5 years) so I'm pretty sure I've got a place to stay. Beers and hookers??? Sure, why not? I am living in the land of pirates, so I am more than happy to embody that lifestyle, let's throw some rum in there too. I definately want to meet up with you and Thud (and any other ESers that may be showing up) outside of the race.

 

[etard]

Burtie is selling them, he is in the UK so you might want to get that ordered this week. You should get with Thud about running that motor as it is almost exactly the same thing as the big Turnigy motor. I believe he has some external hall boards made up but had limited succes so he just went internal with them.

I envy your lifestyle, you must be on some sort of work hiatus. You will be driving right by my house on the 10 freeway on your way into LA. Are you bringing a motorcycle? You should stop in first, I'll show you some of the local twisties.

 

[Thud]

Jay,
I will save you some time & tell you to forget external hall mounting on these big motors...Berties experimnts failed & mine also never produced any resulte that can be called good enough. I understand Pauld is having some issues running higher power on his external set up recently.

Internal mounting solved my issues. if you can identify the windings of each phase..just glue a hall in the space between the windings...in actuality it is really easy to get there.

here is a quick & dirty procedue to get the correct slots for neutral timing:
put a hall sensor in a slot & space them every 4th slot (120deg spacing)
you can hold them temperarly with packing tape.
find the hall sequence that spins the motor in direction smoothley....(i have never had to do more than 3 trys to get the combo correct.)
now that the motor is spinning you should be able to duplicate the set up in the other direction with a simple swap of any 2 phase wires & match that with a swap of the hall wires.

IF the motor spins the same speed in either direction you have stumbled onto neutral timing & are good to go...
If it is noticably faster or slower in the other direction, you are between the phase windings & need to move the sensors over one slot (in any direction) to get to neutral.

it is either dead on, or +/- depending on rotation.
for final install of the sensors I been using JB-weld (slow stuff for the higher heat resistance)
here is a picture of a motor all done:

 

[Thud]

the other option is Burties Optical timing systems...they look really trick!

 

[Jay64]

Etard, no, I am not on a work hiatus.....this IS my work! :lol: :lol: This year I quit my previous job and went back to being a professional motorcycle racer. Basically my job is to go to races and build cool stuff in between. 8) Actually, it doesn't matter what type of racing I am doing, as long as I am out there and racing. I am planning on bringing my current ICE race bike with me on this trip. It is a '11 Harley-Davidson XR1200. I'm trying to see if I can do a quick mod to make it appear to be street legal. I just need to do some fork mounted head lights. Hell, let's take the bicycles out to the twisties! I've seen some of the posers that ride up there, I'm sure we can take some of them on the ebikes. :lol: :lol: :lol: I've got to drop off the HD in Ontario. How close is that to you?

Thud, yeah, I'm still in 2010 for the treads. So far I have seen mention that they were having problems with the external mounting, and then it got fixed, and then there was problems. I just didn't know if it all got sorted out yet. Guess not. I actually would prefer to do internal mounting. However, I am really struggling getting up to speed with these. 1st issue, I'm still learning how to solder, I can do it for certain things, but I'm kind of a hack. I've heard that you can burn out the halls with too much heat. I'm worried that I'll take too long to make the solder stick and ruin the halls. Second, I have no idea about hall sequence. I've heard mention of that stuff in the threads, but I'm missing the basic understanding to even understand what they are talking about. :lol: I've seen a lot of reference to AaBbCc etc. but don't really understand what that is refering to. I notice that it is marked on your motor there as well. Actually, I'm not even sure if this has anything to do with hall sequence. Lmao. If this is correct, or even if it refers to something else, how do you determine which one is which? Which one is supposed to be "a" compared to "A" or "b" "B" etc. I've seen that people are tending to use the same 3 colored wires for attaching to the 3 hall prongs, but don't know if there is any order that they are normally attached, or even what size wire that is that they are using. 3rd, I'm not even sure exactly how to do a phase wire hook up correctly. All the hub motors I have gotten have had the controller with matching connectors, just plug and play.
I understand the concept of what you are saying when talking about changing the timing. Thanks for breaking it down like that, it really helped get me a huge step closer in understanding the mounting process. However, you mentioned doing a simple swap of any 2 phase wires and match that with a swap of the hall wires. I guess I need to learn how to properly set up the phase wires initially so I can even know what I'm asking about.

 

[Jay64]

Dang it, my post keeps getting deleted when I try to send, it is saying I don't have an internet connection. Let's try again. I have been reading that it is important to know if a motor is terminated in delta or wye. Does anyone know how this motor is wired?

 

[Jay64]

I guess I should go out and play with some of my hub motors. Maybe I should try and connect the Lyen contoller up to the hub motor so that I know I have the controller hook up correct, and then use that info for trying to hook up to one of the outrunners. Sometimes it's easier for me to "reverse engineer" a setup that's working than to try to figure it all out from scratch.

 

[Thud]

hehe, lots to learn Jay....
Here is a 2 minute primer:
3 phase power= phase A, phase B, Phase C
A=yellow
B=green
C=blue
These are the phase wires coming out of your 24fet controller....notice there are matching but thiner yellow, green & blue hall wires in addition to the red 5 volts+ wire & black- ground wire.

The motor :....Inside there, a capital letter signifies the direction the wire is wound on the stator tooth. when I wind at home the capital is CCW & the small is CW.

doesn't really affect too much at this point...but if you know the correct "starts" of each phase inside the motor & can position a hall on that phase & match the color combination....hook up is uber simple just matching colors.

this will explain motor theroy far better than i ever could:
http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/models/motor_info.htm

I have no idea of how anyone could or would "burn" a hall sensor soldering to the tiny legs they have...unless they are using a cutting tourch to solder with.

 

[Jay64]

I have no idea of how anyone could or would "burn" a hall sensor soldering to the tiny legs they have...unless they are using a cutting tourch to solder with.

I did mention I was a hack at soldering, right? :lol: :lol:

 

[nieles]

this is what i do for soldering small wires:

tin both wires you want to solder together, don't use a lot of solder

then hold the wires together how you want, and apply heat with the iron.


also, when the iron is hot clean the tip with a rag and then apply a small amount of solder to it
that way it will conduct the heat better to the wires to solder

 

[Jay64]

Thanks for the tip nieles.

Ok, I'm gonna do some more studying so I can figure out what questions I need to ask. :lol: It's hard when you don't know what you don't know. LMAO

 

[Jay64]

So does anyone have an idea of what would be the optimal efficiency rpm range for this motor?

 

[etard]

Excellent Soldering tutorial:

[youtube]I_NU2ruzyc4[/youtube]

He says to use a heatsink between the solder and the Hall sensor if you are concerned with heat on delicate components.

I don't know if anybody has even run this motor yet, with the quality bearings, I would think the motor will be good to run on 18S. If you can get by with a single reduction of 10:1 at 18S you should be very competitive on this track.

 

[Arlo1]

So does anyone have an idea of what would be the optimal efficiency rpm range for this motor?

Im betting ~8000-10000rpm max so you will want to make it spin 3000-7500 most the time.