Commuter...Hub or mid drive?

[motomech]

My main bike has a 48v Xiongda rear motor. It's done 4000 miles and is still going strong. The low gear is only necessary for exceptionally steep hills - like more than 25%. The Q128 would be better if you don't have such hills.

You can't fit the front motor to suspension forks if you have a disc brake. The rear one is very wide, so you need to stretch your frame a bit to fit it. If you don't fit a spacer to the left side on the axle, which makes it even wider, you have to build a substantial off-set to the rim, which means low spoke tension on one side.

Hello D8veh,
I am glad you found this thread as many suggested I contact you or search out your threads for answers. Since my first post to this thread, a few things have changed. What has not changed is my need to commute 11 miles each way on mostly flat ground with a bike with 700c sized wheels. I can charge at work as well if needed. I do plan to pedal and want the motor just to keep my average speed up. Id like to be in the 20-24mph range with pedaling. I plan to commute at least 3 times a week and I am in Los Angeles so cold and wet weather is not much of an issue. I had originally considered converting a Cannondale Contro 3 which is on clearance at REI but the greasy chain turned me off to a commuter. I then found the Priority Eight and like that it has a gates belt drive and IGH for a similar price to the Cannondale. The IGH is an 8 speed nexus so perhaps not the best for a BBS setup strength wise. I looked into the BBS setup, but spoke to someone with the same bike and to do it they had to cut the bottom bracket to get the belt back in line. They know that designing a special sprocket would do it without modding the bike, but they chose not to since they are a commercial outfit and gates wanted too much to license the tooth profile on a product they would sell. The GATES sproket has a bolt circle too small so there is no way to just make an adapter as it hits the motor before being back in line. I could design a one off myself in solidworks but would prefer the easier method of a front hub motor. If I ever decide to go the BBS route at a later date, I can just move the hub motor setup to my wifes bike.

So after speaking to many people on the group as well as Joseph at EM3V I was steered toward two setups. On the EM3V side Joseph recommended a MAC 350W motor and a 36v shark type battery. Joseph says I should be OK with two torque arms on a 6061 fork. The fork is rigid so the fork dropouts are more stout than an aluminum suspension fork. The MAC setup happens to be on sale which is nice as well.

Most posters on here feel that the MAC is way more motor than I need and many recommended the Q100h setup for its lightness, lower torque on the fork and its ease of integration. The Q100h is listed as a 36V motor but most here recommended I go 48 volt. Any issues with that on the Q100h? I am not looking for absolute high speed or much hill climbing, but my concern with the Q100H is that I am sure to use my bike elsewhere and will encounter hills. However, I will always be peddling to help. Does the Q128 fall somewhere between the Q100H and the MAC 350W? SHoudl i be considering the Q128 as well with my fork setup? Should I consider it and swap it for a steel fork? My concern is I need a 700c steel fork with a disc caliper mount in the same location.

At the moment I am leaning toward the Q100h on 48volts but have questions on setup and which controller to choose. Id like a clean setup so the idea of the controller in the shark type battery seems appealing. Also I don't think need all the bells and whistles on displays and such, but I am open to any and all advice. I plan to order the bike next week and may ride it as is and get some measurements before I order the motor kit.

Yuu seem to be well regarded on this site so I would like to hear your thoughts on all this. Oh and I am 230lbs and 6'4" tall so the bike will be pulling a bi of weight.

Take care,

Marc

Oh and I am 230lbs and 6'4" tall so the bike will be pulling a bi of weight.

Now you tell us!! :lol:

If you use the 100H, get the 201 speed.

I weigh 230 plus and while the Cute will haul you around, there will be no reserve.

I believe you picked the Priority 8 because it embodies what you want in a bicycle and that's understandable, but with any system more powerful than the Cute, it's "bicycleness" becomes less and less important. That's the key element that novices don't get until they ride an Ebike w/ more than a little assist motor. The pedal stuff just doesn't matter.

I think the take-a-way from all this discussion is the P.8 will not take any hub motor larger than a geared mini-motor.

Sooooo, if you are sure that you will only be on the bike path and 20 mph is fast enough, the P.8 w the Q100H "201" will work well.

But if you are like many of us, you end up liking your Ebike so much, you will want to start using it in other contexts and you will find the P8/Cute limited.

I haven't mentioned it, but I have had both, a low-powered Q100H "201" powered"assist" bike that was built for "paths";

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68756&p=1036885&hilit=+idrive#p1036885

That bike was stolden in Mex, but I liked so much I'm building another right now. Another GT I Drive w/ a Q100C "201 rear motor on 46V/17A.



Payed $350 for that bike, like new, / new tires and lot's of accessaries Used mountain bikes, especialy those w/ 26" wheels are the best value in Ebiking. 27.5 and 29 wheels are so trendy that people are giving the older 26'ers away on Craigslist. Luv the plush suspension and disc brakes. (My weight and back precludes ridgid frames).

So I will have both a 20 mph pedal assist and a 25 mph a "round towner".

If I could only have one, I would go with the more powerful bike. I can dial down the power on it when I want a workout.
Can't dial up the power on the assist bike.

Really, it's hard to beat the UEB(universal e bike)for value and versatility
And that is a large geared(Ezee, BPM, Mac and BMC) rear mounted in a mountain bike.

 

[cycleops612]

terrific post d8veh, ta for taking the time.

Especially re simulated torque controllers, an awesome topic i suspected was very relevant to ebikes, but i confess this is my first encounter with it.

I had heard the latest EVs have no gearbox, and even the whole transmission becomes optional - just use hub motors. They rely on just this tech to vary torque.

If it works as I suspect, it changes the whole ball game. Its an electronic gearbox on a "single speed" BLDC motor. Who needs mechanical gears then?

U dont say, but i suspect the higher the bikes voltage, the more flexibility the controller has to vary torque (it varies current largely by playing with voltage (& thus current) & timing, intelligently & in real time?).

Can u or others give us some layman's idea of its practical effect, or equivalent mechanical gearing ratios (its more like a cvt it seems)? Are u able to anecdotally, compare the same motor & battery, w/ & w/o torque simulation for us? Any links?

Thanks in advance for u eagerly awaited kind reply.

 

[cycleops612]

nelson38 & motomech touched on a few things not obvious to noobs.

Its true there is much ado about pedaling here from folks here who have bikes they clearly would never bother pedaling. Pedals are just more space consuming footrests.

It follows that, expensive Internally Geared Hubs, only help for pedaling & mid drives. IGHs preclude a rear hub also. A front hub w/ igh will only help pedalling, which most dont do, as above.

Maybe its just me, but mid-drives mean u either select an ~ideal gear for the motor, or for pedaling, but not both - they rarely coincide. I quite enjoy helping out a bit, but I have to work backwards and find an effective gear for pedaling, and then add suitable engine power to do what it can in that wrong gear.

there is mention of "liftability" in one post. Its deeper than it seems. Its the rubicon between bike and electric motorbike, a different ballpark with many little and big consequences.

Dunno how typical my alloy suspension mtb is, but max load is 120kg (it would be nice to know which component dictates that limit). I am a ~light 70kg & my ebike, a light ~30kg all up, so even I dont have much load margin. Many north americans must opt for a much heavier, unliftable bike, which seems a shame.

I think I would push the limits of a lighter bike if i were on the cusp, on the assumption I would lose weight. Ride it like a pussy til then.

 

[addicted2climbing]

The problem is that everybody has a different frame of reference. Some want an assisted pedal cycle, others want a pedal assisted motorcycle. Actually, there's not a demarcation line between the two. It's a continuum from a not-electric bicycle to a throttle-only motorised vehicle with no pedals.

If you want to pedal and use a front hub-motor, I wouldn't use anything other than a modern controller with LCD and current control (also called torque simulation). They're just so much more convenient and give much more control over your pedal assist. That would be my first consideration - to get a kit with such a controller.

A Xiongda motor is good if you have steep hills. When you engage low gear, it's like a winch. It winches you slowly up the hill. It has very little practical benefit for normal riding, except maybe if your bike didn't have any gears and you're not particularly fit. I've tried both versions (36v and 48v). The 48v one has 33% more torque and it does about the same speed (2 or 3 mph faster). I've tried over-volting them for more speed, but you lose both climbing efficiency and efficiency in the normal speed range, so I concluded that there's better motors if you want to go outside the Xiongda's design parameters.

The Q100 is quite powerful for its size. The 260 rpm 36v Q100H at 48v can keep a light rider on a light bike in the mid 20s (mph), but, as Ykick pointed out, the small internal gears will wear out if you make it do that. At 36v and 15 amps, they seem to last forever.

The Q128H has bigger gears and should be fine for what OP wants. It's light, powerful and fairly durable. The only problem is that you can't get a disk brake version of the front motor.

Next up in size and weight, out of the common motors are the Ezee, MAC or Bafang BPM. They're all similar. The BPM is normally the cheapest, and they're strong, reliable and durable, so that's the one I'd choose, but in most cases you get no backup from the supplier. I've never had a problem with one, so that's not really an issue for me. For all these motors, there's normally 350w and 500w versions, which are more or less the same size, weight and price, so it makes more sense to get the 500w version rather than the 350w one.

Lastly, the big DD motors 500w/750W/1000w. They're smooth quiet, powerful, reliable, and cheap but quite heavy. You don't really notice the weight when you're riding, and you can get them in kits with the nice current control controllers that I mentioned above. Previously, you needed massive batteries to provide their power, but the modern 18650 cells give you everything you want in package that has sensible size and weight. With those controllers, you can turn the power down to get however much excercise you want or to get more battery range, or, if you're late, you can turn the power up and go a lot faster.

There's the options and some facts. Whatever front motor you choose, I would always recommend steel forks, which make the installation so much simpler and take away all the worry. I've had a few successful builds with aluminium forks and powerful front motors, but I've also had a couple of failures. I think it's better to be 100% sure.

Hello D8veh and others,

Thank you so much for a very informative post. The myriad of options out there is whats holding me back. Luckily I have been using this last week or so to get some knowledge and then plan to buy the bike in the next week or two. I am not looking for anything too powerful and this will be my first foray into an electric bike and being a daily commuter, I figured simple was best. If I can get 20mph with pedaling than that works for me. I have a really nice Specialized 29r full suspension mtn bike that I use for my non powered riding so my projection is the electric bike will be for commuting and grabbing breakfast with the wife in town. She hates anything resembling a hill so that alone decides our routes when we ride together. I will likely end up converting a bike for her as well. Hers is a giant hybrid so it can be converted as is or as I mentioned above, I pull off the Q100h off my commuter and install it on her bike and upgrade mine.

The belt drive and IGH while nice for commuting is really holding me back on options if I choose the P8 bike. The Cannondale Contro 3 however could take a good size rear hub and still give me some power margin but then I have a chain drive. Its also more mid drive friendly as well which was my original plan and is what started this whole rabbit hole. Maybe I am over emphasizing the nicety of having a belt drive. I ride my mtn bike all the time and rarely end up with grease on my clothes, but it does happen. I think the Contro 3 is an overall nicer bike components wise but I also feel the P8 has its merits for what I want to do. Or I dump both and go the craiglsist route on an older bike. Liftability is also a concern as I do want to be able to carry this on a rear hitch rack for weekend outings. I wish the Q128 was disc compatible as it would be the obvious choice.

Until the Q100h was mentioned I was pretty set on the MAC 350w with dual torque arms. Yet many on here feel its a pretty big motor to have on the front and the aluminum fork is a worry. Is the MAC350 that much more of an issue? Finding a Steel fork for 700c with a disc mount set up for the same sized disc and location as the P8 may be tough. If anyone has a few links that would be great.

Will be doing more research today... The search continues...

 

[LewTwo]

... Dunno how typical my alloy suspension mtb is, but max load is 120kg ....

I do not know about suspension frames but most rigid frame bikes I have seen rated are 250 pounds max load (sometimes 300 pounds).

 

[MikeSSS]

Comments on a front, brushless, direct drive, sensor-less, hub motor, because it is all that I've tired. It is an Aotema, made for 36v but I run it on both 36v and 48v. The Aotema makes a bit of noise at some power and speed combinations, but it does not have gear whine, like a gear hub has. Bike is an old, Japanese made, no suspension mtn. bike, with 18 speeds.

Throttle is a right hand thumb throttle, shifters are thumb type, the bike has three chain rings on the front and a 6 speed freewheel on the rear. Some riding is done by motoring, some is done with a lot of pedal assist. Mileage is about 400 to date. Controller is behind the seat stays, in front of the rear rack and bag. Battery is 48v, 13.5ah, GA cell, carried in the bag on top of the rear rack. Use is going to the store, riding slow and looking at critters and scenery, no commuting is done at all (retired).

This front hub setup has worked extremely well for my use. The only problem I've ever had was that I got caught out in really heavy rain and the hub stopped producing power. Front drive does not feel unusual, it just works.

Right throttle does not cause a shifting problem, because almost all shifting is done on the front, between the big ring and middle ring, the thumb shifter for the chain rings is on the left, so it does not interfere with the right throttle. Some rear shifting is done, just to exercise the rear shifter, cable and derailleur. Most of the time 4th gear, on the 6 speed freewheel, is used. I live in San Antonio, TX, we have some flat and some climbing, very seldom does the small chain ring get used, climbing on electric, in the middle ring and in 4th gear in the back gets the climb done. Sometimes I downshift to the middle ring, to move away from a stop, but mostly I just leave the front on the big ring and pedal/motor away leisurely.

Again, the only experience I have is with front hub motors, but I'd like to have a BBSHD on my full suspension bike.

Hope this info helps you with your decision. There are a lot of "right" ways to build an ebike.

 

[motomech]

I wouldn't worry too much about breaking an alum. MTB. Pro riders do 6 ft.(or higher)drop offs and some of these guys are not small.
I can't think of many documented here, even the cheap Wally World bikes.
Center posts have been snapped off due to too much battery on a rear rack. Kfong comes to mind as documented in his great thread, here;
https://endless-sphere.comrums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12654&hilit=motobecane/fo
A good read.
Funny enough, one bike that had a problem is my main ride, my beloved 2003 Rocky Mountain Edge. With the chain stay, not the frame. The engineers got a little carried away when lightening it and fast riders were breaking them and there was a recall.
That's how I came about buying mine. I was browsing in a huge bicycle super store in Wash. DC when I saw a bike, all dusty, in the corner and asked the salesperson about it. "Oh, we just found it, it was pulled off the showroom floor for a recall and and it was lost in the warehouse." That's how I ended up buying a brand new ten year old Rocky Mountain. It still has the original chain stay and I've never had a problem with it, but I don't do 6 ft. drop-offs.

 

[addicted2climbing]

I wouldn't worry too much about breaking an alum. MTB. Pro riders do 6 ft.(or higher)drop offs and some of these guys are not small.
I can't think of many documented here, even the cheap Wally World bikes.
Center posts have been snapped off due to too much battery on a rear rack. Kfong comes to mind as documented in his great thread, here;
https://endless-sphere.comrums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12654&hilit=motobecane/fo
A good read.
Funny enough, one bike that had a problem is my main ride, my beloved 2003 Rocky Mountain Edge. With the chain stay, not the frame. The engineers got a little carried away when lightening it and fast riders were breaking them and there was a recall.
That's how I came about buying mine. I was browsing in a huge bicycle super store in Wash. DC when I saw a bike, all dusty, in the corner and asked the salesperson about it. "Oh, we just found it, it was pulled off the showroom floor for a recall and we lost it." That's how I ended up buying a brand new ten year old Rocky Mountain. It still has the original chain stay and I've never had a problem with it, but I don't do 6 ft. drop-offs.

Im thinking that the front fork should be good. It already has a disc so one would hope (grain of salt) that the fork is designed to take the loads of the disk down low as opposed to rim braking loads up high. However, crap im more confused than ever. I will keep doing more reading. Crazy thing is now the Contro 3 with a BBS02 or BBSHD is looking good again since its an easy install and likely will work just fine for me... More spendy though...Argh... If I put an Alfine 8 hub on the COntro than I can use a standard chain guard and not worry about grease.. But really in the immortal words of David Byrne "how did I get here"..

 

[motomech]

Pedals are just more space consuming footrests.

:lol:
I always intend to pedal.
But as time goes by and I add more and more power, it becomes harder to force myself to do it.
My brain(lazy by nature)tricks me by saying things like; "When you pedal in this bike lane, with cars whizzing by, you start to wander too much." Or, "You can see traffic better with your head up and not pedaling."

One way of forcing myself to pedal is to dis-connect the cruise, now when my throttle hand gets tired, I switch to PAS. Of course, If I don't drop a speed on the limiter, I'm just faux pedaling.

But heck, I'm getting to the point I'm getting too lazy to even shift, let alone pedal.

That's why I'm starting another low-powered "assist" bike build.
That, and my current ride is becoming too conspicuous for the bike paths. The other day I was coming up on a group of riders and was on the butts when I saw the star on one guy's jersey. Opps, pulled off into a rest area to wait and had time to think about what I was doing.

 

[motomech]

Im thinking that the front fork should be good. It already has a disc so one would hope (grain of salt) that the fork is designed to take the loads of the disk down low as opposed to rim braking loads up high. However, crap im more confused than ever. I will keep doing more reading. Crazy thing is now the Contro 3 with a BBS02 or BBSHD is looking good again since its an easy install and likely will work just fine for me... More spendy though...Argh... If I put an Alfine 8 hub on the COntro than I can use a standard chain guard and not worry about grease.. But really in the immortal words of David Byrne "how did I get here"..

Im thinking that the front fork should be good. It already has a disc so one would hope (grain of salt) that the fork is designed to take the loads of the disk down low as opposed to rim braking loads up high.

I don't like anything bigger or more powerful than a mini on the frt. and think any quality fork ASM like Fox or Marzocchi, or, heck, even Suntour, with at least one TR, can handle that. Been doing it for years.

However, crap im more confused than ever.

When in doubt, return to the sage words of D8veh;

I have both hub and mid-drive bikes. For commuting, hub wins every time. It's just so much more relaxing and forgiving. Keep your mid-drives for off-road riding.

 

[cycleops612]

Re your tagline,i find "nobody knows what they dont know" quite profound, and yeah, the wiser u get, the more aware of it u get.

I also like "u never learn anything with u mouth open." - sorta original, but seems right.

 

[cycleops612]

The good news OP is, u will miss this when u buy, and the dullness of not being able to agonise any more sets in.

 

[cycleops612]

Comments on a front, brushless, direct drive, sensor-less, hub motor, because it is all that I've tired. It is an Aotema, made for 36v but I run it on both 36v and 48v.

Some confirmation/input pls folks?

I was aware brushed motors were not fussy about voltage, but had been told brushless were.

mikesss seems to prove this wrong? A second opinion pls?

My approach to over volting would be a non scientific "dont push your luck son". But I figure with the variation in voltage inherent in many battery packs (lipo/limn), 10 % voltage boost is a no brainer & 20%, probably fine?

It seems the achilles heel in ebikeS electronics is current, not volts, and some extra volts actually reduces current, albeit it increases power.

would u guys agree this is ~fair risk?

e.g., a bog standard 48v lifepo4 pak fully charged to 3.4v per cell, isbriefly 54.4v - a significant bump on the bikes nominal 48v.

 

[cycleops612]

I wouldn't worry too much about breaking an alum. MTB. Pro riders do 6 ft.(or higher)drop offs and some of these guys are not small.
.

This is misleading to the OP. Alloy is fine for bicycles. The matter at hand is adding the weight and torque force of a big front hub motor, not radical jumps.

It focuses large forces on a tiny part of the front fork around the axle that pedal bicycles, understandably were not designed for. Steel is heavier but superior for the job.

Lesser factors are steel can be ~bent/widened if any fitting problems. Alloy cannot, and suspension forks, certainly not.

 

[addicted2climbing]

As you say your commute is fairly flat, a 48v 328 rpm Q128c in the back wheel of the Cannodale with a 48v down-tube battery would make a very light and powerful commuter. You should be able to cruise in the mid 20s.

I spent the evening looking this option up and it looks good. My main concern is I could not find any drawings of the Motor and or motor/wheel combo to see how large a cassette I could fit. The Contro 3 has a Shimano HG62-10, 10-speed and curious if there is enough room for that as I could steal it from the OEM rim. Or any issue running a lower speed cassette and then perhaps the chain designed for that cassette on the front sprocket designed for a 10 speed? If the motor is made for a 135mm rear dropout then can I assume that the rim will be centered over the 135mm? Is there a drawing anywhere that shows how much room is left over for a cassette?

I was a bit confused on the controllers at BMS?
This configurtion shows a PAS but the controler doe snot mention its torque Simulation despite being in the torque simulation grouping:
https://bmsbattery.com/controller/698-sine-wave-controller-for-09-case-controller.html

This looks to be what I want, but was hoping to bury the controller in the battery:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/648-s09pw-easy-assembling-waterproof-connector-kit-ebike-kit.html

Am I on the right track here? This would be for the Contro 3 bike. Any other things to look for?

Marc

 

[MikeSSS]

Aotema 36v on 48v: before buying the 48v pack, I asked for advice on this forum. Some who responded said that the Aotema 36v kit can run on 48v without problems. I tired it and 48v worked just fine, just that the low voltage cutoff is set for use with a 36v gel cell pack. So far, so good.

My riding isn't fast and average power output is low, max power use is low too.

 

[d8veh]

Having read through the entire Xiongda 2-speed motor thread, IMO this kit is absolutely ruled out for a reliable commuter. Too many breakdowns.

The breakdown have all been on trikes or recumbent bicycles where they were being pushed backwards with weight on them. You won't have that problem with a bicycle.

 

[cycleops612]

Having read through the entire Xiongda 2-speed motor thread, IMO this kit is absolutely ruled out for a reliable commuter. Too many breakdowns.

The breakdown have all been on trikes or recumbent bicycles where they were being pushed backwards with weight on them. You won't have that problem with a bicycle.

Yeah, i let it go due to hazy recall, but it didnt sound right and it isnt. That is just what I gleaned from my reading.

I do think folks are careless with their unqualified & unsubstantiated misleading statements. A lot of it about.

 

[d8veh]

As you say your commute is fairly flat, a 48v 328 rpm Q128c in the back wheel of the Cannodale with a 48v down-tube battery would make a very light and powerful commuter. You should be able to cruise in the mid 20s.

I spent the evening looking this option up and it looks good. My main concern is I could not find any drawings of the Motor and or motor/wheel combo to see how large a cassette I could fit. The Contro 3 has a Shimano HG62-10, 10-speed and curious if there is enough room for that as I could steal it from the OEM rim. Or any issue running a lower speed cassette and then perhaps the chain designed for that cassette on the front sprocket designed for a 10 speed? If the motor is made for a 135mm rear dropout then can I assume that the rim will be centered over the 135mm? Is there a drawing anywhere that shows how much room is left over for a cassette?

I was a bit confused on the controllers at BMS?
This configurtion shows a PAS but the controler doe snot mention its torque Simulation despite being in the torque simulation grouping:
https://bmsbattery.com/controller/698-sine-wave-controller-for-09-case-controller.html

This looks to be what I want, but was hoping to bury the controller in the battery:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/648-s09pw-easy-assembling-waterproof-connector-kit-ebike-kit.html

Am I on the right track here? This would be for the Contro 3 bike. Any other things to look for?

Marc

The controller for the 09 case has current control (torque simulation). It's very good, You can use it without the battery arrangement. Just take off the connector and block the hole. Here you can see one mounted at the bottom front of the frame:



The other controller S09PW is not a sinewave one and is for sensorless motors. Q series motors often don't work well sensorless.

I'm not sure how many gears fit on the cassette spline. I've run 8 speed. I know that the Shimano 10 speed is the same width as the 9 speed, and I think 9 speed is too wide for a Q100c, but Molydemum has 9 speed on his Q128C. In his build thread is a drawing of the Q128C, which shows a max stack height of 42.3mm.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76519

There's hardly a hub-motor that doesn't require a bit of an off-set (dish) of the rim. The Q128C doesn't look too bad at 7.75mm.

 

[addicted2climbing]

As you say your commute is fairly flat, a 48v 328 rpm Q128c in the back wheel of the Cannodale with a 48v down-tube battery would make a very light and powerful commuter. You should be able to cruise in the mid 20s.

I spent the evening looking this option up and it looks good. My main concern is I could not find any drawings of the Motor and or motor/wheel combo to see how large a cassette I could fit. The Contro 3 has a Shimano HG62-10, 10-speed and curious if there is enough room for that as I could steal it from the OEM rim. Or any issue running a lower speed cassette and then perhaps the chain designed for that cassette on the front sprocket designed for a 10 speed? If the motor is made for a 135mm rear dropout then can I assume that the rim will be centered over the 135mm? Is there a drawing anywhere that shows how much room is left over for a cassette?

I was a bit confused on the controllers at BMS?
This configurtion shows a PAS but the controler doe snot mention its torque Simulation despite being in the torque simulation grouping:
https://bmsbattery.com/controller/698-sine-wave-controller-for-09-case-controller.html

This looks to be what I want, but was hoping to bury the controller in the battery:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/648-s09pw-easy-assembling-waterproof-connector-kit-ebike-kit.html

Am I on the right track here? This would be for the Contro 3 bike. Any other things to look for?

Marc

The controller for the 09 case has current control (torque simulation). It's very good, You can use it without the battery arrangement. Just take off the connector and block the hole. Here you can see one mounted at the bottom front of the frame:



The other controller S09PW is not a sinewave one and is for sensorless motors. Q series motors often don't work well sensorless.

I'm not sure how many gears fit on the cassette spline. I've run 8 speed. I know that the Shimano 10 speed is the same width as the 9 speed, and I think 9 speed is too wide for a Q100c, but Molydemum has 9 speed on his Q128C. In his build thread is a drawing of the Q128C, which shows a max stack height of 42.3mm.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76519

There's hardly a hub-motor that doesn't require a bit of an off-set (dish) of the rim. The Q128C doesn't look too bad at 7.75mm.

Hello D8veh,

So I read the thread about the Q128 you mentioned above and its just what I am looking for. I also saw he had an issue with a 160mm rear rotor and could swap it out if needed as well. So I was all excited that I finally found what I needed then I had another look at the Contro 3 to see if I would have disc issues and noticed another odd issue. The dropouts on this thing look like afterthoughts. They are a bit odd and boy this looks like it would be tough to add a hub motor with torque arms to.

Your thoughts? Perhaps I should keep looking for the bike....

 

[LewTwo]

The dropouts on this thing look like afterthoughts....

or no thought

 

[motomech]

So I read the thread about the Q128 you mentioned above and its just what I am looking for. I also saw he had an issue with a 160mm rear rotor and could swap it out if needed as well. So I was all excited that I finally found what I needed then I had another look at the Contro 3 to see if I would have disc issues and noticed another odd issue. The dropouts on this thing look like afterthoughts. They are a bit odd and boy this looks like it would be tough to add a hub motor with torque arms to.

Since it's redesign, the Q128 is a true 135 m/m drop-out motor. I suspect the 10-speed would fit with no trouble, perhaps some slight spreading of the chain stays. It's not that the 9 or 10-speed cassette is much wider, but it's just enough wider that the smallest gear rubs on the drop out. The solution is to install a standard flat washer in between, really, it's NBD.
You will likely end up using only 2 or 3 gears, so a 10-speed is not really a benefit. Different numbered of gears cassettes can be swaped in their family of chain size. For instance, I have used an 8-speed in place of a 9-speed without changing anything else. All this can be studied at the Sheldo Brown website.
More involved is motor to brk. caliper clearance. To keep the overall diameter small, the motor is wide and sometimes contacts the caliper of a 160 m/m system. Whether or not it would hit on this bike is impossible to know until tried. The fix is to go to a larger rotor and move the caliper "out" w/ an extension/adapter which is available for most calipers.
A Q128 328 @ 48V on 48V/20 A rear mounted would make a very nice all around Ebike I.M.O.

 

[addicted2climbing]

A Q128 328 @ 48V on 48V/20 A rear mounted would make a very nice all around Ebike I.M.O.

I am leaning toward this configuration now more than ever. However both bikes I found seem not ideal. The Priority 8 is out for sure. The Contor 3 has odd dropouts on the rear so unsure if it would work with torque arms. Any chance you had a look at the Contro 3 pics on the previous page? I still really like this bike for the single chain ring up front as well as a few other options. Your thought son getting torque arms to fit this.

Tonight I found these that look decent as well. If I go REI I have a friends and family coupon for 15% off bikes that I can use Next weekend.
https://www.rei.com/product/101542/charge-grater-2-bike-2016

https://www.rei.com/product/102970/ghost-square-urban-2-bike-2017 Dropouts on this one also a bit odd... Seems man Urban bikes have this style rear dropout. Any idea why?

Marc

 

[addicted2climbing]

Ok I think I found the one... Single crank up front and rear dropouts look perfect for a torque arm. Also on sale and in my price range. There is one near me I can try and may visit on Saturday to try it out. Only downside I see with a Q128 is I may need to change the disk to a 180mm. Also the 11 tooth rear cassette may not fit the Q128. If I were to buy the motor only to keep the rims the same look do you think I could find a shop to lace a hub motor for me? Would I need to give them the dishing spec or could they figure it out? Ie do shops look at you cross if you ask them to lace a hub motor?

http://www.jensonusa.com/Complete-Bikes/Charge-Bikes-Grater-4-Bike?cs=Black

 

[motomech]

Don't worry about fitting the torque arms. For low-powered motors, something can always be rigged up. Order two pairs from BMS Battery, at least one pair will fit one side or the other and if you get stuck, you can always order the V4 from Ebike CA.
They also sell a nice 2 piece PAS disc if you don't want to pull your crank;
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/torque-sensors/pas-12p.html
Also, I would order different style throttles from BMS B. to give you options.
Don't forget the torque wrench, you will need it because you will probably have to dish the wheel a bit. It varies from bike to bike as to how much.
I agree the Contro's drop outs look problematic, recessed too miuch.
The last two bikes look ok.
Dark bikes are better for stealth, the wires blend in.
Commuicate at every step w/ BM B. to prevent errors and have them email confirmation of the motor spec.s.
After you send them the money(Pay Pal), you won't hear anything for a while, don't worry. Eventually you will gvet atracking number that means nothing as the order will arrive the next day.
I ordered a motor only recently and it arrived in 5 business days, but batteries take longer.
Awaiting your order list.