Controller/motor problem - is it the controller? throttle?

[lookingelectric]

I was riding my bike (5305 rear with 48V controller) today and everything was just fine. I stopped for a couple of minutes, disconnected the motor from the controller, reconnected and got on again. When I turned the throttle, I got nothing. No motion, no jerky attempt at starting, nothing at all.

The red light is on at the controller, but nothing moves.

I have no idea what is wrong because there were no hints as to any problems. I've checked the voltage from the batteries and it is fine.

What could have happened? It certainly looks like all of the lines/cables are good.

 

[lazarus2405]

Which controller is it? I assume it's a Crystalyte one. Is it a v1 or v2 unit? The v2 units have fins on the case and do not have a reverse key switch.

Check all the wires again. Is the throttle connected? Are the motor phase wires connected? Are the motor sensor wires connected? And are all the connections secure, even if they look good? I'd wager that that is the issue right there.

Did you have the throttle turned at all when you turned on the controller? If it wasn't at zero when the controller was turned on, it will have temporarily disabled the throttle, as a safety measure.

If that fails, and you still can't get the controller to do anything, the next step is to open it up. In the middle of the circuit board there will be a LED that will blink with error codes. When the controller is on, count how many times it blinks and refer back here.

Here are the error codes:

Indicator light off: Normal working
Indicator light on: EABS braking status
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 1 time - off for 1 second: Standby status
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 2 times – off for 1 second: Brake signal
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 3 times – off for 1 second: MOS damage
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 4 times – off for 1 second: Immediate start at high speed protection
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 5 times – off for 1 second: Electric current failure
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 6 times – off for 1 second: Power supply’s low voltage protection
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 7 times – off for 1 second: Hall effect signal failure
Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 8 times – off for 1 second: No throttle signal

If it comes to that, tell us what you have and we'll explain it and its probable causes.

 

[lookingelectric]

Its a crystalyte 4840. It is black, with fins on the case, so I assume it to be a V2.

All of the wires are cleanly connected. If I knew which two wires connect when the throttle is turned on, I would use a piece of wire to manually connect them and see what happens.

The throttle was not turned on when I turned on the controller. Anyway, the controller has been on and off and the batteries connected/disconnected several times.

With the controller disconnected from the motor:

The voltage between the +ve power line and each of the three power lines to the motor is 56V (controller should take/has taken for months up to 60V). The resistances are too large for my meter to measure (>MOhms). These measurements do not change regardless of whether the power is on or off.

 

[lookingelectric]

Indicator light on for 0.5 second - flash 8 times – off for 1 second: No throttle signal

If it comes to that, tell us what you have and we'll explain it and its probable causes.

8 blinks says that its the throttle. My throttle connector has 3 pins and 4 pinholes. Is this correct, or is it supposed to have 4 pins? Did I lose a pin?

Are there any places in the SF bay area where I could buy a new throttle?

 

[lazarus2405]

The voltage between the +ve power line and each of the three power lines to the motor is 56V

I find that odd... Doesn't that indicate an issue with low side FETs? To have that voltage difference, the motor phases would have to be shorted to ground.

Check resistance between each of the phases (three motor power wires), and between each of the phases and ground. They should all be open (>1MOhm).

8 blinks says that its the throttle. My throttle connector has 3 pins and 4 pinholes. Is this correct, or is it supposed to have 4 pins? Did I lose a pin?

Makes sense. 3-pin throttles are normal, one for +5v, one for signal, one for GND. The fourth is +V (battery voltage), used for throttles that have a little LED battery gauge.

You can check to see if your throttle is working correctly. Connect the throttle to the controller, turn it on, and measure the the voltages. the +5v to GND should measure 5v no matter the throttle position, and the signal to GND should measure 0-5v (well, more like .8v to 4.8v), varying with throttle position. Of course, it's a good idea to disconnect the motor in case the thing works. :wink: Wire colors vary a lot, so there's a little guesswork involved. Generally, though, the signal wire is green.

 

[lookingelectric]

The voltage between the +ve power line and each of the three power lines to the motor is 56V

I find that odd... Doesn't that indicate an issue with low side FETs? To have that voltage difference, the motor phases would have to be shorted to ground.

Check resistance between each of the phases (three motor power wires), and between each of the phases and ground. They should all be open (>1MOhm).

8 blinks says that its the throttle. My throttle connector has 3 pins and 4 pinholes. Is this correct, or is it supposed to have 4 pins? Did I lose a pin?

Makes sense. 3-pin throttles are normal, one for +5v, one for signal, one for GND. The fourth is +V (battery voltage), used for throttles that have a little LED battery gauge.

You can check to see if your throttle is working correctly. Connect the throttle to the controller, turn it on, and measure the the voltages. the +5v to GND should measure 5v no matter the throttle position, and the signal to GND should measure 0-5v (well, more like .8v to 4.8v), varying with throttle position. Of course, it's a good idea to disconnect the motor in case the thing works. :wink: Wire colors vary a lot, so there's a little guesswork involved. Generally, though, the signal wire is green.

With the controller fully connected to the motor and the throttle disconnected, the resistance between any combination of the three phase wires is practically zero.

So... does that mean its the controller? What could have happened to it? There was no high current and no heat.

 

[lazarus2405]

With the controller fully connected to the motor and the throttle disconnected, the resistance between any combination of the three phase wires is practically zero.

Was this with the controller on or off?

And the resistance between any phase and ground?

With the controller out of the case, do you see any obvious FET damage?

Perform the push-back test. With everything connected but with the controller turned off, try to roll the bike backwards. In a healthy controller, it should not be any more difficult than rolling it forward. From what you are saying, it sounds like it'll feel like a brake is seized when you try to roll it backwards.

 

[lookingelectric]

With the controller fully connected to the motor and the throttle disconnected, the resistance between any combination of the three phase wires is practically zero.

Was this with the controller on or off?

And the resistance between any phase and ground?

With the controller out of the case, do you see any obvious FET damage?

Perform the push-back test. With everything connected but with the controller turned off, try to roll the bike backwards. In a healthy controller, it should not be any more difficult than rolling it forward. From what you are saying, it sounds like it'll feel like a brake is seized when you try to roll it backwards.

The resistances are ~0 regardless of whether the controller is on or off. The phase wires appear to be at ground regardless of whether the controller is on or off.

Some of the screws were in pretty tightly, so I only opened the controller at one end, which was enough to let me see the blinking light. I dont think that removing the screws is going to happen for me.

Rolling the bike backwards was the same as rolling it forward, regardless of whether the controller was on or off.

 

[lazarus2405]

Some of the screws were in pretty tightly, so I only opened the controller at one end, which was enough to let me see the blinking light. I dont think that removing the screws is going to happen for me.

To open the thing, get a screwdriver head that seats properly in the screws. Be sure to remove the four screws on each end and the five on the side.

I'd sure like to have a second opinion, but, it sounds like the low side FETs are stuck open. This is not normal... Fechter?

Go ahead and test the throttle voltages.

 

[lookingelectric]

Hmm... I dont think I have a screwdriver that will do the job.

Between the first and second leads, the voltage is zero.
Between the first and third leads, the voltage is 4.3V

Some of the screws were in pretty tightly, so I only opened the controller at one end, which was enough to let me see the blinking light. I dont think that removing the screws is going to happen for me.

To open the thing, get a screwdriver head that seats properly in the screws. Be sure to remove the four screws on each end and the five on the side.

I'd sure like to have a second opinion, but, it sounds like the low side FETs are stuck open. This is not normal... Fechter?

Go ahead and test the throttle voltages.

 

[lazarus2405]

Between the first and second leads, the voltage is zero.
Between the first and third leads, the voltage is 4.3V

Wire colors? With what connected to what, etc?

I can't remember the pin orders. Bleh.

 

[lookingelectric]

Between the first and second leads, the voltage is zero.
Between the first and third leads, the voltage is 4.3V

Wire colors? With what connected to what, etc?

I can't remember the pin orders. Bleh.

I cant see the wire colors; everything is wrapped. The measurements were with everything plugged in and the controller on.

 

[lookingelectric]

I should be a little more detailed on the three phase wires:

Between phase wire and phase wire, the resistance is ~0
Between the positive power lead and any phase wire, the resistance is too large to measure (>MOhm)
Between the negative power lead and any phase wire, the resistance is 3 kOhms

Just in case anyone asks, the power connector was not taken off between when the system worked and when it didnt, so there was no opportunity to have it put on backwards.

 

[fechter]

The voltage readings on the phase wires sound normal. At any given time one motor phase is connected to ground, so when the motor is not running you would expect all of them to read near ground. None of the measurements indicated a FET short.

I'm not sure, but with a V.2 controller, if there is a fault indicated, the FET drives may be disconnected so the roll back test will not behave like the V.1 controller.

It sounds like there is a problem with the throttle that is triggering an error.
You can put your meter neg. probe on the battery neg. and measure each of the 3 throttle wires with the pos. probe. Measure the voltage.

One wire should be zero, one should be around 5v, and the signal wire should vary around 1v-4v roughly. If the controller sees the signal voltage is outside the normal range for zero throttle, it will fault. For example, if the throttle was partially twisted when you power up the controller, it should fault.

 

[lazarus2405]

The voltage readings on the phase wires sound normal. At any given time one motor phase is connected to ground, so when the motor is not running you would expect all of them to read near ground. None of the measurements indicated a FET short.

Even if the controller is off and the motor disconnected? My understanding was that without the drivers, every FET should be open. And if one is grounded and the motor is not connected, how would the other two phases be near ground?

Either way, sorry for the red herring.

 

[lookingelectric]

Voltage drops between negative power wire and throttle pins:

With the throttle at zero: ~0, ~0, 4.3V
With the throttle at maximum: ~0. ~0, 4.3V

Am I right in thinking that, if the problem is the throttle, I should be able to start the controller up with the throttle completely disconnected and place a wire between the second and third (first and second?) pins to make the motor spin?

Is there a better way to tell whether the problem is the throttle itself or the way that the controller handles the throttle?

It sounds like there is a problem with the throttle that is triggering an error.
You can put your meter neg. probe on the battery neg. and measure each of the 3 throttle wires with the pos. probe. Measure the voltage.

One wire should be zero, one should be around 5v, and the signal wire should vary around 1v-4v roughly. If the controller sees the signal voltage is outside the normal range for zero throttle, it will fault. For example, if the throttle was partially twisted when you power up the controller, it should fault.

 

[lazarus2405]

Voltage drops between negative power wire and throttle pins:

With the throttle at zero: ~0, ~0, 4.3V
With the throttle at maximum: ~0. ~0, 4.3V

And that is, of course, with the throttle connected to the controller?

Check all the throttle wires again. Look for any cuts or bad connections. Of course, you'd most likely have seen something already, but another look-over won't hurt.

It sounds like you may need a new throttle. Any scooter/moped parts store will be have them; you're looking for Hall effect throttle.

Am I right in thinking that, if the problem is the throttle, I should be able to start the controller up with the throttle completely disconnected and place a wire between the second and third (first and second?) pins to make the motor spin?

Perhaps. I don't know how the controller determines the presence of a throttle, and exactly the lack of what causes the fault. If it wasn't in the fault mode, shorting the signal pin to the +4v pin should give you full throttle from the motor.

 

[lookingelectric]

Voltage drops between negative power wire and throttle pins:

With the throttle at zero: ~0, ~0, 4.3V
With the throttle at maximum: ~0. ~0, 4.3V

And that is, of course, with the throttle connected to the controller?

Check all the throttle wires again. Look for any cuts or bad connections. Of course, you'd most likely have seen something already, but another look-over won't hurt.

It sounds like you may need a new throttle. Any scooter/moped parts store will be have them; you're looking for Hall effect throttle.

Am I right in thinking that, if the problem is the throttle, I should be able to start the controller up with the throttle completely disconnected and place a wire between the second and third (first and second?) pins to make the motor spin?

Perhaps. I don't know how the controller determines the presence of a throttle, and exactly the lack of what causes the fault. If it wasn't in the fault mode, shorting the signal pin to the +4v pin should give you full throttle from the motor.

The LEDs on the inside of the controller flash 8 times regardless of whether the throttle is connected or not.

If "boot" without the throttle connected and short wires 2 and 3, the main light on the outside of the controller goes off.

If I short wires 1 and 3, the motor "starts" for a second but does not run continuously.

Any ideas? The throttle is the least expensive thing that could go wrong, but I dont really know whether the problem is in the way that the controller handles the throttle, or in the throttle itself.

 

[fechter]

Any ideas? The throttle is the least expensive thing that could go wrong,

That's a good reason in itself to try a new throttle.