Neither motor working, would appreciate your help

[Greg B]

I’m new to Endless Sphere and I’m new to working with these big ebike motors. Long story short, I recently bought both a 1000W motor 72 volt kit with controller and a 4000W 72 volt setup and I can't get either one to work.

I’ll focus here on the 4000W system. I wanted to test that the motor and controller work so I did the basic connections to get it to work and there was not the slightest movement of the motor. The controller is a Votol EM 200 2sp.

What I did:
I attached the motor phase wires and hall sensor wires to the controller.
I set up the throttle with pink to red, green to green, and black to black.
I connected the 72 volt lithium battery.
I connected the purple/grey power lock wire to the red positive on the battery to turn on the controller.
I tried the throttle and absolutely nothing happened.

Does anyone know what’s going on? Have I missed some obvious and simple step?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Other info you may want to know for troubleshooting:
The battery arrived at 79 volts, but I’ve charged it up and it’s now 82 volts.
I did the simple test of turning the motor shaft and then connected the phase wires to each other and found the shaft was locked up as expected.

I’ve spent a lot of time online and with youtube trying to figure this out and have been, so far, unsuccessful. I’ve downloaded a number of the schematics for the controller, but they haven’t been helpful except to point out that the purple/grey is the correct wire to turn on the controller. When I do make that connection, a steady red led light on the controller comes on for a few seconds, but then goes out.


Again, thanks in advance to anyone who can shed any light on this situation.

 

[amberwolf]

I’ll focus here on the 4000W system. I wanted to test that the motor and controller work so I did the basic connections to get it to work and there was not the slightest movement of the motor. The controller is a Votol EM 200 2sp.

AFAIK, Votols are "FOC" and thus require programming to set them up with your motor and system before they will work. It may even need to be told which battery voltage range you are using, which type of throttle, and what the throttle voltage range should be.

There are some threads about various Votol versions here, some pretty long, with various info on setting up all the parameters in the setup program and then flashing those to the controller.



If you have a nonprogrammable version that doesn't require this, then:

I attached the motor phase wires and hall sensor wires to the controller.

Keep in mind that color-to-color generaly doesn't work, and you will probably have to experiment with various combinations of colors on the hall wries, and also on the phase wires, to get the motor to spin correctly (or at all). there are a lot of threads and posts about ways to determine phase / hall combos.

I set up the throttle with pink to red, green to green, and black to black.

Colors often don't match even on these, so make sure that your throttle uses red for 5v power, black fro ground, and green for signal, *and* that those are the colors your controller also uses for those. Also, make sure your throttle is the correct type for the controller. There are hall based types that output around 1v to around 4v, and potentiometer (pot) based types that output from 0v to the full input voltage (usually 5v). The wrong type can cause the controlelr to shutdown due to unexpected startup value detection (throttle fault in the error list or codes, if it has any).

I’ve downloaded a number of the schematics for the controller, but they haven’t been helpful except to point out that the purple/grey is the correct wire to turn on the controller. When I do make that connection, a steady red led light on the controller comes on for a few seconds, but then goes out.

Without knowing (from the manual or manufacturer site info) what that red light means, I couldn't tell you what it indicates.

On most controllers I've used that have a light, a steady light means it's operating normally, but it remains on the entire time it's powered up and working. A flashing light on those means some error, determiend by the pattern it is blinking. No light indicates the controller isn't operating.

On some controllers, the light blinks all the time it is working, in a steady on/off, no pattern. No light or a pattern means it's not working.

Other controllers may behave differently, icnluding the possibility that the light only indicates bootup, and goes away when its' "ready". Or that a steady light indicates a fault, and no light indicates ready.

 

[Greg B]

Awesome, thanks so much for you reply! Lots to check and I'll get back to you after following your tips.

 

[bananu7]

Connect the controller to a PC, the diagnostic app will show you the fault reason and controller state. It's possible you have it configured with brake/park inputs that are preventing the controller from running the motor in the current state.

 

[Greg B]

Bananu7, thank you for your reply. What diagnostic app are you referring to? Do you mean the Votol software to set up the parameters of the controller or something else. Please, be as specific as to make and version as possible. And, where can I get it?

 

[bananu7]

Bananu7, thank you for your reply. What diagnostic app are you referring to? Do you mean the Votol software to set up the parameters of the controller or something else. Please, be as specific as to make and version as possible. And, where can I get it?

Yes, the "Votol PC software". There's plenty floating around on the internet if you just google for it - they do differ slightly, but seem to be mostly compatible with each other. If you go to the "display" tab in the app, it shows the fault codes.

 

[Greg B]

Best regards to Amberwolf and bananu7,

After a variety of delays and various dead ends, I got the Votol software to work and connect with the controller. On the display or diagnostics page it shows no errors and yet the motor is as lifeless as it's ever been. I have tested the motor using one of those $15 ebike testers and it checks out fine.

I've seen a few Votol controller threads where the thread creator, after a lot of work and frustration, ends up just buying a Far Driver. What do you think?

 

[amberwolf]

Have you done any of the configuration steps in the votol software for setting up your controller to match your system, motor, wiring, etc? Keep in mind that you'll have to do the same thing for any programmable controller, including Fardriver. Since you've already got the Votol....

 

[Greg B]

"Have you done any of the configuration steps ..."

I have not, but I'm researching it. Any words to the wise would be great.
And you're right, I've already got the Votol, but I am curious. Do you like any particular brand of controller over others? I know it depends on the motor and other factors, but in general?

 

[amberwolf]

Of the ones I've actually used, only the Phaserunner and the SFOC5 are programmable and thus comparable with your situation. None of what I've used is of the power level you need, however.

I really disliked the SFOC5's programming process, which involved a spreadsheet file, copy/paste of text into a terminal program, and some "finicky" sequence of events required to do and confirm programming. It had no autotune routine, so you had to know the motor parameters (inductance, resistance, kV, etc).

The Phaserunner's setup program is pretty easy to use, relatively simple to understand given basic knowledge of FOC controllers and how they work with motors, and it has a decent manual and a good autotune function...but like any programmable and tunable controller, not every setup is going to "just work" with that autotune result.

Mine did, with the present Ultramotors I'm using, but I had trouble with the GMAC that may or may not have been related to some physical damage to the motor.


Everything else I've actually used has been generic nonprogrammable controllers (except for a no longer available Grinfineon, which was a "branded" NP controller), and they...do what they do well enough, other than the ones I blew up in various experiments, accidents, or misuses.



I had started building two Lebowski-brained high-power controllers that *could* do what you need, but life stuff happened and I have never gotten back to them. If you're willing to do DIY you can still buy the Lebowski brain boards from KiwiFiat here on ES, and then wire them in to replace the brain of whatever other controller you want to use (I used an already-well-documented process using a Honda IMA Inverter).


From all the stuff I've read here on the forum, there are *no* good off the shelf easy to setup higher power controllers; all of them have crappy setup software except possibly VESC, but other than the DIY versions of them the high power ones (flipsky, etc) all have potentially serious manufacturing issues in various batches, and you won't know about them until you have problems because of that.


Pretty much all the setup software for the average controller (Votol, Fardriver, Siaecosys, Kelly, etc) all suck. Poorly designed UI, incorrect and misused and inconsisent terminology, poor or no translations of software or "manuals" (where those exist, they usually don't), and good luck with "tech support"--if they reply, language is a barrier, technical terms are a huge barrier, etc.


Some companies like Sevcon have better hardware, but you have to buy the programming tool hardware and software, which could cost as much as the actual controller, and then you have to figure out how to use it (because they don't support DIYers, only big companies), and it is apparently quite complex. :/ There are people that specialize in setting up sevcons for others; I expect that those that are good at it probably make decent money at it. (I have a Sevcon of unknown configuration that I can't use because I couldn't afford the software/hardware to set it up).

ASI (which the phaserunner is based on) makes good hardware, but they only support or provide info, software, passwords / accounts to use the setup software to those that buy from them; if you buy from a 3rd party they have to either give you their access (probably won't) or set it all up for you, and make any future changes that become necessary.


If anyone has information counter to what I've posted above, please quote me and correct it; all I have posted is a summary of what I've read here, and that doesn't make it guaranteed to be right.

 

[bananu7]

Best regards to Amberwolf and bananu7,

After a variety of delays and various dead ends, I got the Votol software to work and connect with the controller. On the display or diagnostics page it shows no errors and yet the motor is as lifeless as it's ever been. I have tested the motor using one of those $15 ebike testers and it checks out fine.

I've seen a few Votol controller threads where the thread creator, after a lot of work and frustration, ends up just buying a Far Driver. What do you think?

No errors, no checkboxes near park inputs (P) or ANTITHEFT? What state is the controller in? It should be IDLE and switch to RUN when the throttle signal is applied. Are your throttle ranges set correctly? Is your throttle working properly?

 

[Greg B]

Of the ones I've actually used, only the Phaserunner and the SFOC5 are programmable and thus comparable with your situation. None of what I've used is of the power level you need, however.

I really disliked the SFOC5's programming process, which involved a spreadsheet file, copy/paste of text into a terminal program, and some "finicky" sequence of events required to do and confirm programming. It had no autotune routine, so you had to know the motor parameters (inductance, resistance, kV, etc).

The Phaserunner's setup program is pretty easy to use, relatively simple to understand given basic knowledge of FOC controllers and how they work with motors, and it has a decent manual and a good autotune function...but like any programmable and tunable controller, not every setup is going to "just work" with that autotune result.

Mine did, with the present Ultramotors I'm using, but I had trouble with the GMAC that may or may not have been related to some physical damage to the motor.


Everything else I've actually used has been generic nonprogrammable controllers (except for a no longer available Grinfineon, which was a "branded" NP controller), and they...do what they do well enough, other than the ones I blew up in various experiments, accidents, or misuses.



I had started building two Lebowski-brained high-power controllers that *could* do what you need, but life stuff happened and I have never gotten back to them. If you're willing to do DIY you can still buy the Lebowski brain boards from KiwiFiat here on ES, and then wire them in to replace the brain of whatever other controller you want to use (I used an already-well-documented process using a Honda IMA Inverter).


From all the stuff I've read here on the forum, there are *no* good off the shelf easy to setup higher power controllers; all of them have crappy setup software except possibly VESC, but other than the DIY versions of them the high power ones (flipsky, etc) all have potentially serious manufacturing issues in various batches, and you won't know about them until you have problems because of that.


Pretty much all the setup software for the average controller (Votol, Fardriver, Siaecosys, Kelly, etc) all suck. Poorly designed UI, incorrect and misused and inconsisent terminology, poor or no translations of software or "manuals" (where those exist, they usually don't), and good luck with "tech support"--if they reply, language is a barrier, technical terms are a huge barrier, etc.


Some companies like Sevcon have better hardware, but you have to buy the programming tool hardware and software, which could cost as much as the actual controller, and then you have to figure out how to use it (because they don't support DIYers, only big companies), and it is apparently quite complex. :/ There are people that specialize in setting up sevcons for others; I expect that those that are good at it probably make decent money at it. (I have a Sevcon of unknown configuration that I can't use because I couldn't afford the software/hardware to set it up).

ASI (which the phaserunner is based on) makes good hardware, but they only support or provide info, software, passwords / accounts to use the setup software to those that buy from them; if you buy from a 3rd party they have to either give you their access (probably won't) or set it all up for you, and make any future changes that become necessary.


If anyone has information counter to what I've posted above, please quote me and correct it; all I have posted is a summary of what I've read here, and that doesn't make it guaranteed to be right.

Thanks, very much. I like to get the lay of the land when I get into something new.
Love the Edwin Land quote.

 

[Greg B]

No errors, no checkboxes near park inputs (P) or ANTITHEFT? What state is the controller in? It should be IDLE and switch to RUN when the throttle signal is applied. Are your throttle ranges set correctly? Is your throttle working properly?

Thank you, bananu7, again for checking in and your questions.
OK, first I checked the throttle with a 4.5 volt battery setup and it came back .8 volts to 3.7 volts so that's OK. I hooked it all up to the computer again and it showed a checkmark on park (P), but that was it. I could not get it to go away. There was an error for a hall wire that wasn't there before.

In the first page I chose EM200 which is what it is and wrote those parameters to the controller and it was successful. Then, I went to the display page and it said controller failure with an error code of 200. I tried turning off the controller and then turning it back on as a way to reboot and hopefully fix the issue. After that, it won't communicate with the software anymore. I've tried turning everything off and back on, but it won't connect anymore. Communication abnormal, no response.

Do you know what happened? Is it a brick? Any suggestions?

 

[j bjork]

You have to turn off the park, from what I remember you de-activate that input on the last page in the program?
It is the page where you choose what inputs and outputs to use, and what for.

Not sure about your communication issue, but from what I remember there are some settings on the first page.
Like communication speed, can or not and those kind of things. Maybe something there changed?

 

[bananu7]

Thank you, bananu7, again for checking in and your questions.
OK, first I checked the throttle with a 4.5 volt battery setup and it came back .8 volts to 3.7 volts so that's OK. I hooked it all up to the computer again and it showed a checkmark on park (P), but that was it. I could not get it to go away. There was an error for a hall wire that wasn't there before.

In the first page I chose EM200 which is what it is and wrote those parameters to the controller and it was successful. Then, I went to the display page and it said controller failure with an error code of 200. I tried turning off the controller and then turning it back on as a way to reboot and hopefully fix the issue. After that, it won't communicate with the software anymore. I've tried turning everything off and back on, but it won't connect anymore. Communication abnormal, no response.

Do you know what happened? Is it a brick? Any suggestions?

If it shows checkmark on P, that means the park input is enabled, the motor should be held stationary and it won't react to throttle.

The "hall fault" appeared for me when the throttle was disconnected. I believe the actual motor hall fault would present as "motor fault". Either will likely also prevent the controller from reacting to the throttle.

If after writing you can't connect anymore, that might mean you didn't use the appropriate software to write to it, and either bricked it or changed communication configuration so that it won't talk to you anymore. As jbjork mentioned, try all combinations of connections again, double check (and reconnect) the serial port number and the adapter etc. Not great either way. Worst case scenario, the controller will need to be flashed with the proper firmware again.