Copenhagen wheel

[Modbikemax]

There will also be an SDK for developers to tap into the wheel, it also has regenerative braking (however I think I heard one of the co-founders Assaf mention that it might improve the range 10% if you're lucky).

That would be pretty exceptional regen.

I would guesstimate, based on various bikes I've setup with various motors, that on mostly flat terrain, with the fairly spread-out city traffic patterns here in Phoenix, AZ, that even 2-5% would be high for typical cyclist riding patterns.

If, other factors the same, riding more like motorized cycle patterns , regen of around 5% is probably still "pretty good".


Perhaps if riding in hilly terrain, or REALLY stop-and-go traffic, regen could end up higher. But 10% would seem to still be exceptional, from my experiences so far.

Regerative braking is a complete and utter waste of time and is purely a marketing ploy. Think about it,If you live on the top of a mountain with a 30 km constant downhill steep gradient at best you can expect to gain 3km at the end, maybe, and only if you regen all the way. Please. A few minutes on the charger will do the same. Think about how often you apply the brakes and for how long in the average journey and if, optimistically, you get back 10% you are probably talking gaining 50m at most. Factor in losses and the added complication of manufacture it's pure fantasy. Coasting will save many times more energy. Regen only helps to sell ebikes to stupid people who are bad at math.

 

[amberwolf]

Regerative braking is a complete and utter waste of time and is purely a marketing ploy. Think about it,If you live on the top of a mountain with a 30 km constant downhill steep gradient at best you can expect to gain 3km at the end, maybe, and only if you regen all the way. Please. A few minutes on the charger will do the same. Think about how often you apply the brakes and for how long in the average journey and if, optimistically, you get back 10% you are probably talking gaining 50m at most. Factor in losses and the added complication of manufacture it's pure fantasy. Coasting will save many times more energy. Regen only helps to sell ebikes to stupid people who are bad at math.

Pretty broad overgeneralization there.

Itt depends on your riding style, and what you expect from it.

If, like me, you aren't expecting any range back out of it, but simply using it as additional braking force (and to reduce pad/braking surface wear), regen is worth having.

If the buyer is expecting it to let them ride forever without recharging, well, they've got another thing coming. :lol:

 

[Modbikemax]

Pretty broad overgeneralization there.

Itt depends on your riding style, and what you expect from it.

If, like me, you aren't expecting any range back out of it, but simply using it as additional braking force (and to reduce pad/braking surface wear), regen is worth having.

If the buyer is expecting it to let them ride forever without recharging, well, they've got another thing coming. :lol:

What you are talking about is "Dynamic braking" which is what electric trains do. You can see the large resistor banks under the chassis. The energy is just wasted. And again unless you live on a mountain top and riding the brakes all the way down a $10 set of brake pads last a long time. I have never worn any out completely.
When people ask me about my bike the first thing they ask is "does is recharge itself" so yes the general public do expect these thing to recharge forever and the bike manufacturers play on this to help sell their products as if it is a major selling point. In reality it has almost no benefit apart from saving a small amount of wear on what is probably the cheapest consumable on a bike the brake pads. They never talk about rolling resistance due to coging, weight, tyre size all of which have a far greater influence on performance than regen.

 

[spisska]

You can make the argument that regen braking on an ebike is not cost effective. That's fine. Renen braking is really only effective at speed, involves more points of failure, and only gains <10 percent of energy consumed. Those are all valid arguments.

But you can't really make the argument that it's pointless. It's a proven technology that keeps freight trains running, and the physics of freight trains are several orders of magnitude removed from the physics of bicycles. At the very least. regen braking will extend the life of your primary brake system , because nobody in his or her right mind would use regen as a primary brake.

Personally, I think designing regen braking into a bike is a waste of time, but then again, I tend to be Johnny Raincloud. The inventors of this world tend to be people who prove people like me wrong.

 

[100volts+]

Regen rules bro particularly on bicycles in excess of 100 lbs decelerating from 60+ mph. Even better than Saint Hydros

 

[Chalo]

Regen rules bro particularly on bicycles in excess of 100 lbs decelerating from 60+ mph. Even better than Saint Hydros

You trust 10mm flats on a 14mm threaded shaft more than I do. I'd much rather apply braking torque at a point 311mm from the axle center than at 5mm from the axle center. So that's what I do, mostly.

 

[Modbikemax]

Regen rules bro particularly on bicycles in excess of 100 lbs decelerating from 60+ mph. Even better than Saint Hydros

In that case I guess it would have a similar feel to engine braking on a motorcycle and possibly reduce skidding on the rear wheel, so could ABS, but in terms of recovering any useful amount of energy, doubtful. Amps x time gives you amp hours but you only apply the brakes for seconds and then as you slow the charge rate drops quickly. Like I said do the math.

 

[dogman dan]

Regen is nice on heavier bikes. For braking.

The energy I gained regen braking down a large mountain was much less than I'd get by continuing to coast on the flat, or even just pedaling for half a mile. Using regen down that mountain, I was too slow. But real comforting to know it's there if you are dropping down a hill that big on a 350 pound with rider bike.

So I do agree, as a way to reclaim energy, or pedal till you are charged, forget it.

But regen brakes really do help you stop if you have a heavy bike going fast, or descending a steep hill. A few wh put back into the battery in the process is nice too, but hardly enough more range to care about. I was seeing about 2% returns on an entire ride to town.

What matters though, and why I'm not currently using regen, is the stress on your torque arms. Mine at the moment are too weak and loose to keep using regen. I kept having to tighten my axle nuts every 2 days.

Heres where I say for the 1000th time, we need a complete overhaul of axle and bearing design on hubmotors. That little flat on the axle is too skinny. We need a flat on the axle inside the frame that is 2-3 cm long, not one cm. Then we won't need torque arms a half inch thick.

Fix that, and then I'll embrace regen with a lot more enthusiasm.

 

[100volts+]

In that case I guess it would have a similar feel to engine braking on a motorcycle and possibly reduce skidding on the rear wheel, so could ABS, but in terms of recovering any useful amount of energy, doubtful. Amps x time gives you amp hours but you only apply the brakes for seconds and then as you slow the charge rate drops quickly. Like I said do the math.

I don't really care about reclaimed energy. Just the braking effect.

You trust 10mm flats on a 14mm threaded shaft more than I do. I'd much rather apply braking torque at a point 311mm from the axle center than at 5mm from the axle center.

Chalo, I have a 16mm axle. That said, it is mounted on a walmart bso. That should indicate how much I think about safety as well.

 

[miro13car]

could not agree more with 100V, Dogman and others,
How would you loose your bikes kinetic energy while breaking from 30mph
by grounding pads and disks or by using electromagnetics forces?
Of course regen should be modulated/programmed on civilized ebike and construction of axle/torque arms should be strong enough for regen.
Plus don't forget wet grounding pads and disks in the rain are scary,
I enjoy regen braking on all my three ebikes.
Don't care much how much Wh I return to battery, it is not about it.

 

[Avitt]

So to pull this all back on topic...

Copenhagen Wheel has accepted $millions in customer prepayments for a product that has experienced numerous delays coming to market. Those delays have been blamed on the complexity of design, and the establishment of a complex supply chain.

Part of the complex design is a regenerative braking system. But this feature will have minimal benefit to the user, because the system is designed to be light weight (so normal braking should be adequate), energy recapture will be minimal, and there will be no torque arms provided with the kit.

 

[Modbikemax]

My point about the regen is that the advertisers are making claims about a feature which is pretty much useless and the unwary purchaser is being conned into believing something which is not true. Like solar panels that work in the shade, oil adatives which save fuel, cancer free cigarettes, vitamin supliaments, guns that don't kill people and the list goes on.

 

[100volts+]

I do agree that regen on the Copenhagen wheel is about as useful as tits on a boar hog.

 

[dogman dan]

However, if your bike is an urban fixie, that regen might be the only brakes on the bike. FWIW, the facebook page pictures do show a bike with rim brakes.

 

[Modbikemax]

However, if your bike is an urban fixie, that regen might be the only brakes on the bike. FWIW, the facebook page pictures do show a bike with rim brakes.

Haha good one. :lol:

 

[100volts+]

Why am I even posting to this topic? The Copenhagen wheel scam has been perpetrated since 2009 yet people still want to believe in this scamware. It's bigger than the "bioplanet bike" scam which is still going on BTW, or the localized deVr**s or San**sf ES group buy scams. (I censored the names so I wouldn't get in trouble with the admins. It's been years since I've been banned and I don't want to mess up now. )

 

[arkmundi]

Regarding regen braking: I'm on my second build right now, so make no excuses for my ignorance of many things eBike. My recent discovery is that the upgraded MAC kit from EM3ev I'm getting, with the Infineon controllers has that. Hence, the sensor in the brake handles. I wanted and was prepared to spend extra for regen, but golly jeeze, its in the kit, hallelujah and amen! I'm going to see if I can get my current 1ah per mile average down, and by how much, as I gather my ride stats after the build is complete.

Regarding the Copenhagen wheel: no, its not a scam and yes, its been too long coming. Its coming from http://senseable.mit.edu/copenhagenwheel/:

The Copenhagen Wheel was unveiled on December 15, 2009 at the COP15 United Nations Climate Conference. The project was conceived and developed by the SENSEable City Lab for the Kobenhavns Kommune. The prototype bikeswere realizedwith the help of our technical partner Ducati Energia and funding from the Ministry for the Environment.

If you are interested in owning a wheel, producing, licensing or distributing, please contact Superpedestrian for more information. For additional information and other inquiries, please contact: senseable-cph@mit.edu

MIT plus many partners and soon in production. I wonder if there is intent to roll out in conjunction with COP20, garnering major media coverage and a built-in market of potential buyers.

http://copenhagenwheel.tumblr.com/

We were honored when the design world came together to celebrate the laureates of the Red Dot: Design Concept Awards 2014. With its origins dating back to 1955, the Red Dot ranks among the largest and most renowned competitions in the world today, previous winners include: Audi, Dyson and Apple. The Copenhagen Wheel emerged as an award winner from a record 4,791 entries hailing from 63 countries, receiving the “Best of the Best” in the category of mobility. Moreover, of three finalists, the Red Dot jury selected the Wheel as the winner of the Red Dot: Luminary – their highest distinction given.

 

[100volts+]

If you don't think it's a scam I know this Nigerian Prince who inherited $25,000,000.00. You only need to send him your account number and pin so he can get the money out of the country and you get 50% of the money for your time and trouble.

 

[arkmundi]

- Delivery date: We cannot guarantee a precise delivery date just yet, but we estimate that delivery will take place before the end of 2014. As we previously committed, orders will be shipped out in the order they were received.

- Progress updates: We should have been in touch with you more often, and that’s going to change. As we press ahead, we will make sure to keep information coming your way with routine behind-the-scenes updates through our blog, email, and social media.

- An invitation to get involved: We have appointed a dedicated person to create an open two-way exchange between our team and our community. Feel free to e-mail community@superpedestrian.com with your thoughts and ideas. We’re excited to co-create with you.

I sent an email to that address and invited their direct response to this forum thread. I'll wager they will fulfil their pre-order commitments before March 1st 2015.

 

[Avitt]

- Delivery date: We cannot guarantee a precise delivery date just yet, but we estimate that delivery will take place before the end of 2014. As we previously committed, orders will be shipped out in the order they were received.

- Progress updates: We should have been in touch with you more often, and that’s going to change. As we press ahead, we will make sure to keep information coming your way with routine behind-the-scenes updates through our blog, email, and social media.

- An invitation to get involved: We have appointed a dedicated person to create an open two-way exchange between our team and our community. Feel free to e-mail community@superpedestrian.com with your thoughts and ideas. We’re excited to co-create with you.

I sent an email to that address and invited their direct response to this forum thread. I'll wager they will fulfil their pre-order commitments before March 1st 2015.

Doubt it. And they won't respond here.

If they were a public company, they'd be facing jail time for Sarbanes-Oxley violations...Taking money for pre-orders, and holding onto that money for over a year, is a scam bordering on criminal...

 

[untg]

- Delivery date: We cannot guarantee a precise delivery date just yet, but we estimate that delivery will take place before the end of 2014. As we previously committed, orders will be shipped out in the order they were received.

- Progress updates: We should have been in touch with you more often, and that’s going to change. As we press ahead, we will make sure to keep information coming your way with routine behind-the-scenes updates through our blog, email, and social media.

- An invitation to get involved: We have appointed a dedicated person to create an open two-way exchange between our team and our community. Feel free to e-mail community@superpedestrian.com with your thoughts and ideas. We’re excited to co-create with you.

I sent an email to that address and invited their direct response to this forum thread. I'll wager they will fulfil their pre-order commitments before March 1st 2015.

Doubt it. And they won't respond here.

If they were a public company, they'd be facing jail time for Sarbanes-Oxley violations...Taking money for pre-orders, and holding onto that money for over a year, is a scam bordering on criminal...

Haha, that's funny!

For starters, they aren't 'holding on to peoples money', well, I guess that was your main premise and I've just blown that out of the water so...

In addition, they are a very public entity backed by a few very prominent organisations, including the MIT and the City of Copenhagen.
Not only that, they have had more than a dozen demonstrations as well as a weekly 'come and try' where you can test the wheel at their workshop. There are many reviews of prototypes out there, on youtube and I would say almost a dozen written reviews.

Heck, most kickstarters don't start with that and some don't end with that!

But, haters will hate

 

[Avitt]

Uh...They are holding onto people's money. According to their press, they have over 12,000 orders, for which they've been paid the full amount...not a deposit. (That's almost $10million, sitting in their coffers.) And while they say that the orders can be cancelled at any time, they attempt to prevent that by stringing out their delivery schedule...Kinda like the airlines announce flight delays - a little at a time (but with no firm commitments).

 

[Avitt]

- Progress updates: We should have been in touch with you more often, and that’s going to change. As we press ahead, we will make sure to keep information coming your way with routine behind-the-scenes updates through our blog, email, and social media.

I read that quote from the Superpedestian founder on their Tumblr page. It was posted back on May 1st.

They followed up with an update on May 14th. And then, nothing...The only new information has come from their defensive posts on their Facebook page...

 

[d8veh]

Regarding regen braking: I'm on my second build right now, so make no excuses for my ignorance of many things eBike. My recent discovery is that the upgraded MAC kit from EM3ev I'm getting, with the Infineon controllers has that. Hence, the sensor in the brake handles. I wanted and was prepared to spend extra for regen, but golly jeeze, its in the kit, hallelujah and amen! I'm going to see if I can get my current 1ah per mile average down, and by how much, as I gather my ride stats after the build is complete.

The MAC motor has a free-wheeling clutch: How's regen possible? Have I missed something somewhere?

 

[Punx0r]

Serious question: Why has this taken ~6 years to attempt to bring from prototype to any-scale production? Unless I'm missing something it is established technology somewhat-novely packaged?