crank spacing

miro13car

100 kW
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
1,905
Location
Calgary, Canada
I have a question to those mechanically knowledgeable about bicycle.
My bottom bracket axle is 120mm, 68mm shell width
I need to space cranks apart wider by another 20mm to get more room between bicycle frame and cranks on both sides.
bike shops are telling me in my city that longer axle they saw was 127mm.
Is there any other way? Machining custom axle?
Or there are longer than 120mm axles for BB?
 
You can make your own custom BB shell and crankshaft, by cutting and lengthening the existing ones. AussieJester did this, with instructions, in one of his custom build threads (the one after the trike, I think).

There may be other options, but the above will let you get whatever length you want.
 
I picked up a 153mm cartridge B.B. from Sick Bike parts for a mid drive build. it is off set though, longer on the non-crank side I mean so it may not suit your needs.

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=107

I know longer spindles for non-cartridge style B.B.'s are available too. I installed one on a friends 2-stroke gas bike so he could have more space for a custom exhaust. it was centered and I think maybe 160mm? he said he got from a site that sold parts for tandem bikes. not sure where.

DC
 
Thank you so much
I knew there must be somebody out there selling longer axles
The 153mm one I like
I must however contact SickParts ,I am not sure , does the 153mm one fit 68mm shell and will it screw into my shell?
 
Its standard 1.375" X 24 tpi ISO sizing. They have 72mm cup spacing width which is also compatible with 68mm BB shells (a little bit of cup protrusion the LHS)

Also, when you recieve yours, check the spindle for straightness/significant runout. During the post machining case-hardening process of the spindle, they tend to deform a bit due to imperfections in the metullurgy, and gravity causing the ends to sag as the heated/plasticy metal cools. As an example, I ordered a 206mm spindle version and it had 2mm of runout between the centre and both ends! Jim at Sickbike parts kindly sent me a replacement free of charge and explained the problem. The replacement still had a small amount of runout, and aparently they all have at least a little. Had i not replaced the original though, my chainrings would have continued having ridiculous wobble.
 
Be aware that a crankset is designed for a specific bottom bracket width and to change that by much will adversely affect the chainline, that is the alignment between the front chainrings and the rear sprockets. The "Q-factor" (distance between the crank arms from outside to outside of arms) does vary from crankset to crankset so I would suggest measuring yours and then see if you can find one wider. I had one cheapy steel crank which had a Q-factor IIRC close to 190mm (I prefer less than 160mm) with a 127mm bb.

-R
 
thank you Russel and Boostjuce,
I am aware of chainline and it is the least of my worry, on ebike I rearly use low gears, 90% of the time smallest sprocket,it looks like on my ebike lenghtening axle will actually help chainline in my riding habits.
The big worry is simetrical placement of axle, axle protruding same amount on both sides.
Again Boostjuce how can I make axle placed simetrical?
I cannot quite understand?
 
miro13car said:
Again Boostjuce how can I make axle placed symetrical?
I cannot quite understand?


You cant. Unless you get a spindle custom made. My point was simply that it may serve your alignment requirements better to reverse which side has the longer protruding spindle. If the only reason you want it symetrical is for aesthetics or comfortable pedalling, then youll just have to accept the look, and in practice you wont notice the uneven pedal spread.
 
miro13car said:
Thank you so much
I knew there must be somebody out there selling longer axles
The 153mm one I like
I must however contact SickParts ,I am not sure , does the 153mm one fit 68mm shell and will it screw into my shell?

Yes, it will fit. But the 153mm one is offset to one side, as DCmotorworks pointed out. The 132mm one is symmetrical.

Note that cranks vary widely in how much they flare away from the frame. If you use a 127mm or 132mm BB with cranks that flare more than what you've got, you might have enough room for your scheme.

You'll probably wind up pedaling like a duck, though. Whatever it is you're doing might violate the Prime Directive, which is this:

Do Not Ruin Your Bike By Trying To Make It Better.

If you add bionic legs to your bike but cripple your ability to use your actual legs to propel it, then it flunks the test.

Chalo
 
Thank you, I can see now
The reason for equal space between frame and crank on both sides is not esthetic
I want to place my A123 packs here as low aspossible
So I want to spit 12S pack - 6 on one side,6 on other side
It would give superior handling with very own Cof Gravity
After getting rid of hub battery on my Eplus I want to keep CofG low
My Eplus is pleasure to ride very stable like a rock, I feel confident to stand up on pedals for exercise and I want keep it that way
Can the metal machining shop meet quality requirements like type of steel just like brand name BB manufacturer?
 
I also have the 153mm BB from SickBikes. I bought it so I could fit a 60T sprocket without interfering with the chainstays. (I run a 20" rear wheel, so I wanted the faster gearing.)

Ability to handle a wider battery pack inside the triangle is a secondary benefit, and I don't find the wider pedal positioning to be awkward for my thick-thighed 5'11' body. It may even help reduce the thigh friction from the wide matress springed Serfas cruiser saddle I run on the ebike.
 
I had a custom BB made by Phil Wood; actually - they had what I needed in stock, so perhaps my request was not so unique :)

If you can sketch out a simple drawing of what you need, I am certain they will be able to help. Mine arrived quickly, and was fabricated in the finest quality imaginable short of gold-plate! I really enjoy a well-machined part 8)

And it worked great too for adpating the triple-road Campy to my FS DH MtB.
Best of luck, KF
 
Thank you KingFish,
I also like quality parts on my ebike
I don't think BB from SickBike Parts is a quality part, as boostjuce experience shows I was right that 18 dollars BB cannot be of any quality.
From my reading Phil Wood is THE golden standard for parts like BB.
I would rather pay not 18 but 118 dollars but get USA made quality part.
KingFish, howmuch did you pay ? Was it complete BB ,square tapered with axle and bearings included? or just not complete BB.
 
miro13car said:
Thank you KingFish,
I also like quality parts on my ebike
I don't think BB from SickBike Parts is a quality part, as boostjuce experience shows I was right that 18 dollars BB cannot be of any quality.
From my reading Phil Wood is THE golden standard for parts like BB.
I would rather pay not 18 but 68 dollars but get USA made quality part.
KingFish, howmuch did you pay ? Was it complete BB ,square tapered with axle and bearings included? or just not complete BB.
Campy&PhilWood.jpg

The parts necessary for the potentially-fastest pedal ebike: 53T Chainring & custom Phil Wood BB 8)

ES thread: Pusher-Trailer: A Bicycle-Frame Solution
The cost I have was $204.50 including shipping. In the image, it's everything in the cyan foam off to the right. I know that sounds like a lot of money... OK, I have the invoice in front of me:

  1. BB: Alloy -S-S Campy 68 x 124mm Sym; $141
  2. BB Cups, British SS; $37.50
  3. Portable Phil BB Cup Installation Tool; $15
  4. Parcel Insurance; $0.75 x 2
    ----------------------------------------
    Subtotal = $195
    S&H = $9.50
    ----------------------------------------
    Total $204.50
So this means that I ordered the BB, plus the cups, plus the installation tool. All of it was worth every penny!

Hope this helps, KF :)
 
miro13car said:
I have a question to those mechanically knowledgeable about bicycle.
My bottom bracket axle is 120mm, 68mm shell width
I need to space cranks apart wider by another 20mm to get more room between bicycle frame and cranks on both sides.
bike shops are telling me in my city that longer axle they saw was 127mm.
Is there any other way? Machining custom axle?
Or there are longer than 120mm axles for BB?

Just for the record, what is your present Q-factor (sometimes also called "tread") and how wide do you need it to be?

Here is a picture of a crankset I have with a wide Q-factor of over 180mm with a 127mm bb. Do you need even it to be wider than that?

IMAGE020.JPG


-R
 
miro13car said:
I also like quality parts on my ebike
I don't think BB from SickBike Parts is a quality part,

The one I installed for a customer was good quality, equal to a Shimano BB-UN54 if not better.

There is no need to get fancy with bottom brackets; good enough is good enough. If you want to spend big on vanity parts, make it the ones you can see. I default to the Shimano BB-UN26 (a $16 part) unless the customer requests otherwise. They work well and last a long time.

Chalo
 
18 dollars ones are made to China standards, means for Chinese 2mm runout wobble is good enough for them ,just read Boostjuce experience in this thread. Will you?
Maybe you can live with wobble in your chainring but many technically minded people would not.
Sending replacements back and forth and trying how many of them? SickParts has only so much patience with customer.$18???
Maybe for some of us even 1mm runout is not good enough, on other hand some unattentive types would even not notice 3mm wobble .
Fancy? Not at all, buying $120Chris King hub for my TForce for example was just adding quality part to quality USA bike.
Nothing fancy, BB work hard enough.
Yours work? but how precise? "work" is general therm.
 
Russel
I need space between frame and crank as I wrote ,on both sides of my Biria bike. Frames like frames can be thicker or thinner. So I don't concentrate on Q factor.
I concentrate on how much room do I have between frame and crank.
MY Biria bike frame being Step-Through frame is really thick - 60mm!!
 
miro13car said:
Russel
I need space between frame and crank as I wrote ,on both sides of my Biria bike. Frames like frames can be thicker or thinner. So I don't concentrate on Q factor.
I concentrate on how much room do I have between frame and crank.
MY Biria bike frame being Step-Through frame is really thick - 60mm!!

OK I didn't understand where your clearance issue was. So you are saying the CHAINRINGS hit your frame? If so I imagine you've already removed the inner chainrings (if a double/triple) and used just the outer large ring.

-R
 
no, chainring is not hitting , just I need more room between frame and cranks to place batteries there.
I need symetrical axle placement so I will probably replace just spindle with 145mm Phil Woods spindle,expensive and much better quality than rest of my BB.
But I am not 100% sure yet if I have JIS spindle, looks like that.
Any idea what is the SURE way to say it is JIS , other square spindles are so close.
Even PhilWood would not explain in FAQ
 
miro13car said:
18 dollars ones are made to China standards, means for Chinese 2mm runout wobble is good enough for them ,just read Boostjuce experience in this thread. Will you?
Maybe you can live with wobble in your chainring but many technically minded people would not.
Sending replacements back and forth and trying how many of them? SickParts has only so much patience with customer.$18???
Maybe for some of us even 1mm runout is not good enough, on other hand some unattentive types would even not notice 3mm wobble .
Fancy? Not at all, buying $120Chris King hub for my TForce for example was just adding quality part to quality USA bike.
Nothing fancy, BB work hard enough.
Yours work? but how precise? "work" is general therm.

I'm a prototype machinist by career: I work in a bike shop now because I want to. I know what I'm looking at.

I have never come across a BB that wasn't pretty straight, or that was loose at the bearings when new. And I have dealt with thousands of them. Certainly the $16 Shimano kind are perfect every time. Not the smoothest or the prettiest, but perfectly straight, strong enough, durable enough. The single example of a BB I got from Sick Bike Parts was also perfectly straight, with smoother bearings.

It's the cranks that have runout sometimes. This can usually be corrected by judicious application of the rubber mallet. If you are dealing with some weird front freewheel crank from a hokey little Chinese supplier, I'd imagine that's where the imprecision lies. Shafts are easy to make straight, even for indifferent Chinese peasants.

I have dealt with Phill BBs too, and I am not impressed. They are smooth, but you have to glue them in! Super corny. If you try to tighten them properly, they bind. It's easy to overtighten them inadvertently on installation. They constitute poor design that was superseded twenty years ago with the first generation of Shimano BBs.

Chalo
 
miro13car said:
no, chainring is not hitting , just I need more room between frame and cranks to place batteries there.

Ah, so you are fouling the human interface of your bike with an "enhancement".

Any feature that comes between me and my bike has to go back to the drawing board for more thought.
 
FWIW, I wanted the extra teeth a road chainring could provide so that I could still realistically pedal at 33-36 mph. Great in concept, though proved to be difficult to execute:

I went through a couple of different MtB triples before realizing it wouldn’t work on a Full-Suspension MtB frame; a 48T chainring would hit the frame and the solid/integrated axle solution wouldn’t work. Going with Campy, I could use the Phil Wood axle specc’d to the precise length, and made it possible to adjust the position by rotating the cups for the proper alignment and tension. Not terribly difficult, but I worked at it until I had the best possible clearance with as little deflection from the optimum “Q-factor”.

So far so good, however I discovered the MtB derailleur wouldn’t fit the larger ring; the differences between 48T and 53T was enough. The best option was to purchase a matching Campy derailleur. But then the diameter of the seat tube was smaller for road than MtB, so a normal clamp wouldn’t work: The best solution was a Braze-on clamp adapter for MtB. I found one off the shelf, though it didn’t move the derailleur out far enough to align with the triple chainring range. This took a bit to cypher out, but I designed my own and had a prototype made to order. It was almost perfect: Turns out that the angle of the Seat tube is different for road bikes and MtBs; it’s like about 5 degrees difference – enough that shifting between the largest and smallest could cause the mechanism to lock up. Completely correctable if I made a second unit, but I was out of time, so I lived with the top-two range and didn’t shift to the lowest ever.

The unanticipated third problem was that my chain wasn’t long enough! If the front was on the largest ring as with the rear, well – the tension was beyond the shifter, plus the binding of gross misalignment. So I had to compromise and promise not to ever shift into that condition. The reverse was also true: Smallest in the front and smallest in the rear produced too much slack. With daylight burning, I chose to live with it and just get on down the road…

After 2515 miles, I have this to say: The reality of this whole experiment was that I was almost always in the largest gear forward, and the two, sometimes three smallest gears on the freewheel. I always had power to at least one wheel, so the lower gears were never utilized… and frankly the whole persuit was an expensive flight of fancy. If I had to build it again, I’d probably go with a double in the front and a custom triple freewheel on the rear: A high range of 53-11, and a low of 39-16 if it could be had. Who makes custom freewheels these days?

BTW - I wouldn’t suggest my route to anyone; it’s an edge case. Although the point I'd like to make is that the BB made it possible to adjust and set the alignment of a larger chainring within the framework. I have two beautiful brand new triples lying in a box that cost more than the single BB. For what I was trying to accomplish, it was small change, especially after fabricating the custom braze-on adapter. In the end though, you get what you pay for. It’s worth a few extra dollars to have quality equipment, although I do not make a habit of buying the most expensive – unless there's no choice. If you can work with available components, great. But in this hobby, sometimes we need to make our own. :)

My ½ W, KF
 
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